JPK, well said!

JKP

I was using fuel prices as an example'. Which is why I said 'fuel for example. A better example might be that I'm paying my local staff almost 50% more than I was paying them 2 years ago.

Africa, like everywhere else has suffered inflation and like everywhere else, when that happens all prices, including salaries and everything else goes up........ that's an unfortunate, but true and simple fact of life and it happens (to some extent) everywhere in the world. Obviously the countries with weaker economies will suffer more than countries with stronger economies. (I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that)

In all fairness, I really don't think anyone can complain about safari pricing. All you have to do is take a look at the outfitters hunts offered forum and you'll see some prices start at less than US$200 a day for a 1x1 hunt. For that the client gets a PH, staff, hunting vehicle, food and hunting area......... That to me is a very good price indeed for a budget hunt and I can tell you now that after all the costs have been deducted, the profit margin on that hunt ain't exactly gonna be huge. Frankly, I don't know how they do it for that price, but I take my hat off to them for managing it. Admittedly I don't work that end of the market but I budget that entire daily rate for PH salary alone.

From there, prices increase but for the vast majority of outfitters those higher prices are reflected in the product. Just as it is in rifles, cars or anything else in life. Doesn't matter what you're buying, you don't get what you don't pay for.

At the end of the day, the customer buys the product he prefers and/or can afford. My guess is the lower end of the business won't drop much more than they are now, simply because if they did, they'd be losing money...... or at least, not paying all their overheads...... and if you don't do that, sooner or later, you're gonna find yourself on the road to ruin and eventually out of business.

As to the higher end of the market...... hmm, I don't know. It could well be that most of those consumers can afford the higher prices anyway, although it could equally be that those might opt for shorter/less expensive options. I guess time will tell on that one.

Well, on this one Shakari and I are on the same side of the issue.

Wink went back to 2007 to generate his 26% increase in Rands today due to the improved exchange rate.

RSA inflation alone in 2007 was +6% and 2008 was +8% and 2009 is today looking like 8.15%.

It looks as if the RSA outfitters will MAYBE break even in comparison to 2007 Rands IF the US stock market does not go up any further.

[Though it likely will - I hope!- so the Rand/$ exchange rate will just as likely slide down in conjunction]

It doesn't exactly look as if they are "making' an additional 26%. And they likely have not received much or any of that US$ yet for this season.

Les

Shakari, Lhowell,

The same math applies. You pay the staff in Rand, but are paid by the hunter in dollars. 50% hike in compensation to staff in Rand equals a 37% rise in cost.

And your labor cost will decline, as they always do in a recession.

And it is actually no harm to the outfitter to be paid ollars which are worth even more later, or to delay exchange of dollars for Rand until later when dollars are worth even more, so long as he has enough Rand currently to meet demand.

I'm not bitching about safari prices, just about mistated or misunderstood math/facts.

I would enjoy being paid in a currency enjoying little inflation, and which is the world's safe haven, and then paying my expenses in an inflating and devaluing currency. There is money to be made in just the exchange.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Cazador humilde:
If the product, as speced, is going to result in something that doesn't work, then that should be covered before the bid is due.

Hey, when its the f'in Gov't, that is what change orders are all about!

JPK

JPK

No bwana, you're assuming staff costs are the only increase whereas everything but everything increases in cost. Also you're assuming that lower employment equals lower labour costs........ that only applies if you take unskilled labour. If you want good staff who can be trusted and know what they're doing and they know they're good and will go elsewhere if you don't pay them a liveable salary..... to say nothing about what's the right thing to do.

As to exchange rates, they're up and down like a whores drawers over the last year or two..... just look at the US$/ZAR over the last week or two, let alone the last year or two.

I'm going to call BS on the inflation theory.

Sure we ALL saw a spike up in gas prices then we saw a spike DOWN in fuel prices. Sure there was inflation in 2007 into early 2008 but we have now seen deflation.

Lets assume the dollar didn't get 26% stronger are you trying to tell me outfitters would be getting 76% more instead of 50%? No way.

Recessions lower costs and unemployed safari workers can be found that will work for less since they aren't working at all.

Also, using $200 on 1 hunts as your baseline is not the real situtation, those hunts are few and far between. It is the hunts with the $1,000-$1,200 daily rate hunts that need to come down. It is just like the car makers, the low end stuff has mark ups of as little as $500 and the big expensive SUVs have mark ups of $10,000-$15,000.

Guys are saying the $15,000 hunt needs to come down to $10,000 or less not that the $2,500 hunt needs to come down to $1,500.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
JPK

No bwana, you're assuming staff costs are the only increase whereas everything but everything increases in cost. Also you're assuming that lower employment equals lower labour costs........ that only applies if you take unskilled labour. If you want good staff who can be trusted and know what they're doing and they know they're good and will go elsewhere if you don't pay them a liveable salary..... to say nothing about what's the right thing to do.

As to exchange rates, they're up and down like a whores drawers over the last year or two..... just look at the US$/ZAR over the last week or two, let alone the last year or two.

Sharari,

As I said, the math applies to EVERY increse and EVERY decline, not to just those you wish to pick and choose.

Here are the exchange rates for the last year, by three month intervals:
7.9 April 16, 2008
7.6
8.14
10.05
9.05 today

Steady trend.

JPK

Shakari

Back to you man! These guys are so confused that I can not even figure out how they got here!

We should probably not have these conversations after "Sundowner" time here!

I think most everyone here understands your figures and understand the realities of your business!

Les

Shakari,

I'll add that even the most talented groups of personnel will be availble for lower rates as a result of reccession. For the perfect example, I'll pick PH's.

JPK

Guys, y'know, I just don't understand your logic at all.

Surely it's a good thing to have a wide range of products/prices to choose from? Not everyone in the world wants the same car, which is why you can buy everything from electric cars to small family saloons to a range of 4x4s to supercars that cost anything up to 7 figures.

Exactly the same applies to air travel. Some want to buy the least expensive ticket and are prepared to sacrifice comfort in exchange for price. Others want to pay a bit more money for a bit more comfort and they go business class and others will happily pay considerably more and go first class.

Why should you expect hunting operations to be equipped/priced differently?

Some camps will be fairly basic and areas of average size. Taking it to the extreme, other camps will have persian carpets on the floor, silver service dining and have areas large enough to take more than a day to drive across.

If both were the same price then no-one would book the smaller area and more basic camp would they?

As to wages. I don't know about others but I would certainly consider it dishonourable to make my staff (black or white) work for the lowest possible rate just because I could. Firstly, I wouldn't expect them to stay with me if I played that game and secondly, it's simply wrong and if I behaved in that manner, I honestly couldn't sleep at night. Personally, I'd rather pay them a decent living wage, know I'm doing the right thing and have a good night's sleep.

At the end of the day, you should be looking at the wide range of products on offer and deciding what you like and what you can afford and then buying it if you want to. More relevently, if you don't like or can't afford the product, don't buy it......... but c'mon guys, stop bleating like spoiled children if you can't afford everything in the sweet shop.

I can assure you that no-one in the safari industry is making any unreasonable profits. The guys at the lower end of the market are paying their wages and not much else and even the guys at the top end of the market certainly ain't gonna get rich this year.

As to discounts, sure they'll be discounts with some companies, but there's always some companies that offer discounts just as there are some that don't ever offer discounts.

Simple logic should tell you that those that don't ever offer discounts don't need to offer discounts for a reason.

You guys are living in a dreamwoirld if you think deflation is happening outside of the USA!!

I cant speak for SA but Australia and New Zealand inflation is still happening (albeit less). Im sure that costs wont be going down in SA either - right Shakari??

What is the underlying inflation rate in SA at the moment?

Imagine walking into a shop, and pick a designer item.

It is marked $1,000, and has a well known name on it.

You know it was made in China, and the ingredients only cost $20.

Do you ask to see the manager of the shop and argue this out with him?

There are hunts offered at varying prices, some seem reasonable, and some are not.

One has to look at what he is actually getting for his money.

And the old saying "if it sounds too good to be true, then IT IS too god to be true".

It would be interesting to hear what line of business those who are nitpicking what the PHs costs are.

And may be show us how they actually conduct their own business.

Since only two people here answered from Africa, and they are not realy full time operators in the professional hunting industry, but know so much and want to share it with the world, and I'm the one that posted the very low deals, I feel obliged to respond:

Steve, you amongst others said in 2008 prices for 2009 will not go down. You were wrong. We are following a BIG stream of outfitters cutting prices to fill the diaries. I personaly spoke to 6 outfitters that has been to the US for years, and they did not go this year.

Andrew, a succesfull marketing tour for us is not jsut about bookings, but getting the general feeling of the hunting public in the countries we visit, and see and hear what they think of us. Also, if you have to keep 3/4 PH's bussy, you will have more than one open week in your diary after a VERY succesfull marketing tour.

Thus said. This year is more difficult that others. We have more bookings (at rates we want) for 2010 thant we have for 2009.

How can we drop prices like we do, it is simply, and if you do not understand it you should get out more. Two years ago the Rand hovered at R7/$1, it is now very steady at R9.

IT is difficult times. If all your vehicles and land are PAID for, you do not have to make EXTRA expenses or expand your business. You just keep on doing what you do and ride the year through.....WTF is so difficult to understand about that.

And Steve the cost of living has gone up, but not in such a way that it should raise prices in Safari hunting. We have a sickness in this country where every one raise their prices when the inflation reports come through. Fuel came down, A LOT. Interest rates are dropping, A LOT. Food is not that expensive (our meat bill is zero everymonth as we only eat venison from what our hunters shoot).

So get of the high horses, there are good deals by reputable outfitters because they can afford to do so. There should be no thoughts of hidden agendas, and it should be seen for what it is.....a genuine offer to hunters to get them to come and hunt at a reduced price.

Oh, and a old and wise outfitter told me the other day that this recession is a very good thing it will cut the chaff from the wheat. The serious guys will be left standing. And of course the part timers, as they have other "real" jobs...

I just had to say something, sorry if it sounds like moaning or bitching, I just cannot keep quite when these guys get going....

Matt,

I don't really follow the inflation rate very much but I do know that the grocery bills (for example) go up every time we shop and when I see the bill, I usually find myself saying something very like, 'HOW MUCKING FUCH!'

I guess it's much the same everywhere else in the world!!

Charl,

Our posts crossed....... so I'll reply separately.

Interesting you say you know guys who didn't do the States this year..... I know of guys who are saying they may well not go next year but haven't personally heard of anyone dropping out in 09..... I guess a large part of that might be that we probably have contacts in different parts of the industry.......... like you though, 2010 is already looking to be a lot busier for us than 09.

I take your point about having vehicles paid for, (we don't ever put ourselves in the hands of banks or use credit for anything because I don't trust the bastards!) but I personally take the view that one needs to look ahead and factor in both future costs of replacing vehicles etc and also maintenance etc. Admittedly, it's only a personal view but I reckon if you don't do that, you're gonna battle to keep equipment up to date in the future. Therefore, we always factor that into all of our budgets.

Hey, I wasn't knocking your prices at all and if you re-read my posts, you'll see that I was actually doing the opposite. I said, I don't know how you do it for that price but I take my hat off to you for managing it. Frankly, anyone that bleats about prices as low as that needs their head read.

I think your wise old outfitter was right in some ways. The recession really will sort out the wheat from the chaff and time will tell who's left standing. Unfortunately, it'll also mean a loss to the industry of some very good people. I know of several very good young PHs (most) with young families who are already regretfully considering looking for a job that'll give them more security and better income than hunting does...... If people like that leave the industry, most will never come back and that's a great loss to everyone involved........ including clients.

It's also going to mean a drop in the next generation of people coming into the industry. I'm sure that you, like us have a fairly regular flow of newly qualified guys coming to you looking for work. If they can't get into the industry, they also, will go elsewhere. Probably won't affect me much, because I'm an old fart. - But it'll surely affect a lot of other companies a few years down the road.

Steve,

We know your an old fart mate!

I agree, but vehicle repair expenses should be calculated in a budget pre-hunting season, and they do not go up, as we do most of the stuff ourselves.

It's not difficult to figure out how we can do it, we just get through the year, we do not want to be rich in three or four years, just keep on doing what we love. Its a life, not a job.

AND then the stats. Do not qoute me please as I cannot recall the exact figure. I spoke to two guys some years ago about the amount of people that has gone throught their respective hunting schools in the last 10 and fifiteen years. They recon there should be about 8000 PH's in SA that DID the COURSE.....not nesc. registering with nature conservation and hunting full time. I remember a figure of about 500 operating outfitters in the country. And a figure released by African indaba in 2005 of 5500 hunters (avg) that visited South Africa.

Take big outfits like Zululand Hunters (Dries and Mark), Thormalen, Phillip Bronkhorst, Limpopo, Abie Steyn, Ekland....They all do about 200+ hunters a year. That leaves about 4000 for the other, what, 450 outfitters. Then take medium size guys like us that do 60+ people a year, and say there are 200 of us, then there realy is not a lot of work for PH's in this country.

It will be VERY good for the hunting industry if about 50% of these guys get other jobs. there are WAY too many people out there that did the course, walk around and say..." I'm a PH"....It is guys that have to cut corners to make ends meet that give the SA industry a bad name. And then of course a few crooks.....

So....if you look at PHASA's membership list, these figures seems bizzare, but there are a LOT of outfitters that do not belong to PHASA. I was very surprised to find out just how many.

You are right, I had at least 20 guys throughout the beginning of the year that approached me for jobs. And they come from guys like Peter Harris, Phillip Bronkhorst and other big guys. I just shrugged my shoulders and said that if those big boys cannot keep you, how should I. I have an obligation towards 4 people that hunts for us, and I do not see me needing another one for the next three years...

A bit of the topic maybe, but interesting none the less.

This is just chewing the fat.....I'm not trying to educate anyone.....I found it very interesting when these figures were given to me, as I think anyone would that lives in our world.....

Ah the crooks!

Just imagine how wonderful life would be if it wasn't for those "few crooks".

As far as I am concerned, we should try our best to make sure they are exposed, regardless of which side of the fence they are on.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Ah the crooks!

Just imagine how wonderful life would be if it wasn't for those "few crooks".

As far as I am concerned, we should try our best to make sure they are exposed, regardless of which side of the fence they are on.

I couldn't agree more!! it's the bad guys on both sides of the fence that are one of the biggest problems in the industry.

Charl,

you're right in that we need to see a drop in the plastic PHs. My concern is that as these guys fall by the wayside, and most will, that the industry keeps the good ones. If the good ones decide to leave the industry and go elsewhere then it's mean a massive lack of good/top quality PHs in the future....... and that ain't gonna be good for anyone.

We also need to bear in mind that the problem isn't just restricted to South Africa / PHASA etc. Exactly the same thing will be happening in Mozambique, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Zambia, Botswana and everywhere else in Africa that sport hunting happens.

Just to settle the argument on the rate of inflation on food.Its alot higher than you think.The inflation on food over the last year to two is sitting on about 15%.Groseries and non food is on about 13% and fresh produce and meat is higher bringing the average to about 15 %.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmara:
Just to settle the argument on the rate of inflation on food.Its alot higher than you think.The inflation on food over the last year to two is sitting on about 15%.Groseries and non food is on about 13% and fresh produce and meat is higher bringing the average to about 15 %.

So, if your paying for those groceries with US dollars, 26% more valuble than 2 years ago, your real cost are 10% lower than they used to be (assuming you used total inflation over the two years), or (if you used annual rates rather than total inflation) the same to 4% higher.

You all ought to watch your Forex closely. BTW, if your fear volitility, you can easily lock in today's exchange rates for the next six months of hunting season at very little cost.

JPK

Shakari,

I gotta say that your grasp of both the free market and finance ain't all that great.

For instance, and include here Saeed's comment about the chineese trinket, why in the world would I want to pay one dollar more for the same product I can buy for one dollar less?

Since there is more than one person, outfit, company, etc. offering this product, and so competition amongst those offering that product, why in the world would I not seek the lowest price for that product?

How would I do that? First I would shop for that product. Next winnow out those providers with less than stellar reputations. Then I would winnow out low service providers of that product since service is an element worth consideration to me. Then I would continue to winnow the list until I had at least three, but no more than a handful of providers. Lastly I would negotiate the best price I could from each provider, reserving my final decision to the last round of negatiation, where an on the spot commitment might shave more cost from that commitment...

This example applies best to the Chineese trinket or the Rolls Royce or the Cheverolet because the products are identical. But it still applies to products which cannot be identical, like an elephant hunt.

As far as reasons one supplier might cut price and one might not, there are a million and more reason's and combinations of reasons ranging from necessity to differeng views of forthcoming economic conditions to contract provisions and on and on. But for over simple opposing illustrations let take two companies, one with large fixed costs and one with equal but variable costs.

(Fixed cost might entail long term lease commitments, payments for improvements, obligatory trophy fees paid kill or no kill etc, etc.; variable cost might include daily access fees, staffing costs, food and drink, trophy fees paid only at the kill, etc, etc, etc.)

The company with the large fixed costs may choose not to cut prices, while hoping business does not drop off too significantly because it must generate X dollars of revenue over the, say, 150 day season, just to pay for its fixed costs.

The company with variable cost may choose not to cut prices because the amount of business it must do is very flexible since it can add or reduce costs based on the amount of business it does. Bookings fall 50% and so revenue falls 50%, but then, because one half of hunters come, the food and drink expenses drop 50% - and this is because with 1/2 of hunters 1/2 of PH's are required and 1/2 of staff. Likewise others costs.

Now lets switch the decisions of the execs.

The fixed cost company might prices, knowing that each booking will produce less margin to pay for the fixed costs, but hoping that bookings will either not drop so precipitously or at all or even grow.

The variable cost company might coose to cut prices, knowing that what is left after paying all costs will be left in an effort to grab market share for the future or hoping that more bookings wil result...

Over simplified for sure, but illustritive of different tactics by different folks, the merit of which might only be visible in hindsight.

But, in any event, it is the task of any purchaser to purchase what he seeks to purchase at the lowest price he can find and/or negotiate; it is the task of every seller to sell what he seeks to sell at the highest price he can.

Both sides of the transaction need to keep their best interest in mind though. That might mean a seller selling for less than the most he can sell, say to avoid the appearence of gouging, or the buyer buying what he seeks for more than the minimum he could pay, say to land that one PH or to hunt in that one concession he would prefer, etc, etc, etc.

Know one thing though, with an edjucated buyer and an edjucated seller, neither will sign on to a deal that doesn't meet the requirements each needs, even if neither achieves all that he wants.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Guys, y'know, I just don't understand your logic at all.

Surely it's a good thing to have a wide range of products/prices to choose from? Not everyone in the world wants the same car, which is why you can buy everything from electric cars to small family saloons to a range of 4x4s to supercars that cost anything up to 7 figures.

Exactly the same applies to air travel. Some want to buy the least expensive ticket and are prepared to sacrifice comfort in exchange for price. Others want to pay a bit more money for a bit more comfort and they go business class and others will happily pay considerably more and go first class.

Why should you expect hunting operations to be equipped/priced differently?

Some camps will be fairly basic and areas of average size. Taking it to the extreme, other camps will have persian carpets on the floor, silver service dining and have areas large enough to take more than a day to drive across.

If both were the same price then no-one would book the smaller area and more basic camp would they?

As to wages. I don't know about others but I would certainly consider it dishonourable to make my staff (black or white) work for the lowest possible rate just because I could. Firstly, I wouldn't expect them to stay with me if I played that game and secondly, it's simply wrong and if I behaved in that manner, I honestly couldn't sleep at night. Personally, I'd rather pay them a decent living wage, know I'm doing the right thing and have a good night's sleep.

At the end of the day, you should be looking at the wide range of products on offer and deciding what you like and what you can afford and then buying it if you want to. More relevently, if you don't like or can't afford the product, don't buy it......... but c'mon guys, stop bleating like spoiled children if you can't afford everything in the sweet shop.

I can assure you that no-one in the safari industry is making any unreasonable profits. The guys at the lower end of the market are paying their wages and not much else and even the guys at the top end of the market certainly ain't gonna get rich this year.

As to discounts, sure they'll be discounts with some companies, but there's always some companies that offer discounts just as there are some that don't ever offer discounts.

Simple logic should tell you that those that don't ever offer discounts don't need to offer discounts for a reason.

Let me try to clarify even though every time I see you post I know exactly what you are fighting for. I think you actually see the writing on the wall that a lot of your friends and family are going to lose their income in this downturn.

Hunting in Africa does not occur in a vaccum. The hook for hunting there has always been about bang for the buck and being able to take lots of animals for a reasonable if not cheap price. BUT, as prices on daily rates, flying to Africa, shipping stuff back, trophy fees etc have gone up, the "value" has gone down. Eventually it reaches a price where people say it is no longer worth it.

Also, nobody is saying that all African hunting should cost the same. What guys are saying is I would go back and shoot another buffalo if the price was reasonable. You are incorrectly assuming that they are going to Africa regardless and will book a hunt they can afford, this is not the case. Hunting is purely a luxury no a single one of us NEEDS to go.

Let me break it down purely in terms of economics.

Lets say for arguments sake there are 1,000 Buffalo hunts in Southern Africa. At $1 per hunt they would obviously all sell out, at $1,000,000 per hunt none of them would sell.

People who want to go on a Buffalo hunt (ie the market) will determine the value of these hunts, not the outfitters. Lets assume that $10,000 is the optimum price where you can still sell every hunt and maximize profit. $10,000x1000 hunts = $10,000,000 in hunt revenue.

Now lets say that outfitters demand $15,000 per hunt. In most outfitters minds they just think they are going to get 50% more for each buffalo but they are wrong. This new higher price leads to not every hunt being sold out. Lets say 350 hunts go unsold. Now the total revenue is only $9,750,000. Since Buffalo hunts are not inelastic, for every dollar increase over the optimum price, revenue is lost via unsold hunts.

Each individual hunt wether it is plains game in SA or Elephant in Zambia holds a certain level of value to people. If the value does not equal the price they won't go. The ONLY way they will go is if they either value the hunt more or the price drops. In an economic downturn people value the hunts LESS (because they have less money) so for the number of hunts to remain as high the price needs to come down.

JPK, there you go doing it again using good business practices. Believe me it won't fly, first because you are not in Africa and Africa is different than any other business enviorment etc etc.

Guys, your logic is flawed in two ways.

Firstly you seem to (at least partly) fail to realise that no two hunting operations are the same and therefore every product is different. In other words, quality varies enormously and quality comes at a price. put another way, not all chinese trinkets are the same quality.

Your second error is that you assume every hunter is the same. They're not. Some make their primary criteria price, some quality, some, who runs the operation and some even how many charges can be crammed into the hunting time....... there's no end of different factors that can affect an individual's choice of where to hunt and how much to pay etc and many clients will be happy to pay a higher rate than the lowest rate to get what they want.

More importantly, I think you're making the mistake of thinking that every hunter applies the same criteria as you do....... and that ain't the case in the real world.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Imagine walking into a shop, and pick a designer item.

It is marked $1,000, and has a well known name on it.

You know it was made in China, and the ingredients only cost $20.

Do you ask to see the manager of the shop and argue this out with him?

There are hunts offered at varying prices, some seem reasonable, and some are not.

One has to look at what he is actually getting for his money.

And the old saying "if it sounds too good to be true, then IT IS too god to be true".

It would be interesting to hear what line of business those who are nitpicking what the PHs costs are.

And may be show us how they actually conduct their own business.

You bring up a wonderful point. Luxury makers are absolutley DYING in this market. I have a client who is in the high end womens clothing business and he says he is in a depression!

People are in fact not paying retail and negotiating lower prices with managers at the stores. Many of the ones that aren't are going bankrupt or having to dump their clothes through discount outlets like TJ Maxx or Marshalls.

Steve, come on now, are you saying in any other business it is all cookie cutter. In my practice I have over 500 clients and I will gaurantee no two are a like, bit they all have one thing in common - they require good value for their hard earned dollars.

When things are not going so well I will, to use the venacular, invest in my client by cutting them a break so as to help them in the hard times and if they are able to stay in business I will continue to have a client. If I don't lend a helping I am pushing toward the brink and they are gone.

I also understand you don't have clients that stay with your firm for 50+ years either.

I don't really see the relevence of that comment.

I haven't been in business for 50 years but FWIW, I've been in the business for a few months short of 30 years......... and we do have clients that have had something like 15 safaris with us and are still booking.

Ah well, I guess some people can't see the wood for the trees. byeeee

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Guys, your logic is flawed in two ways.

Firstly you seem to (at least partly) fail to realise that no two hunting operations are the same and therefore every product is different. In other words, quality varies enormously and quality comes at a price. put another way, not all chinese trinkets are the same quality.

Your second error is that you assume every hunter is the same. They're not. Some make their primary criteria price, some quality, some, who runs the operation and some even how many charges can be crammed into the hunting time....... there's no end of different factors that can affect an individual's choice of where to hunt and how much to pay etc and many clients will be happy to pay a higher rate than the lowest rate to get what they want.

More importantly, I think you're making the mistake of thinking that every hunter applies the same criteria as you do....... and that ain't the case in the real world.

No that is all taken into consideration.

In my example the optimum price was $10,000 per Buffalo hunt. In that number there were hunters willing to pay more but did not have to. Remember, as the price goes up hunters drop off until no one is willing to to pay the requested price. Not every hunter valued the hunt exactly the same but $10,000 was the balance point of the different valuations. It is an AVERAGING of valuations. The steak at the grocery store is not priced based soley on what YOU will pay, it is based on the average value. You might be willing to pay far more.

The market also takes into consideration the slight difference in the different hunts and prices them accordingly. A better area will draw a better price. A better PH will draw a better price but it is within reason. The Zim is a wonderful example, the civil unrest has led to lower priced hunts because the danger lowers peoples value of the hunt. The lower cost of the Zim also lowers the price other areas can get because it is a very comparible alternative to a Buffalo hunt in Tanzania for example. Different yes, but the price reflex that.

You are incorrectly assuming hunts are inelastic (ie they are so special and different that there is no substitute). This is not the case. Not only can you easily replace one Buffalo hunt with another you could go on a totally different hunt instead of a Buffalo hunt.

The example commonly used in economics is rice and bread. As the price of rice goes up people wil buy more bread and less rice until a balance between rice bread and price is reached. In this example the price is elastic.

The second example is insulin. Since you need it to live as a diabetic you will pretty much sacrifice everthing else to buy it. It will be purchased regardless of price until you have no money. This is an inelastic price.

Buffalo hunting is NOT inelastic. No hunting is inelastic.

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It would be interesting to hear what line of business those who are nitpicking what the PHs costs are.

And may be show us how they actually conduct their own business.

Finance and 100% commission. No getting lulled into a false sense of worth with a salary here!

It seems obvious to me. Suply and demand. If you have animals that need to be taken and don't have the hunters to hunt them what do you do? Do you farm them in hopes that next year will be better and try to hold out during this year or do you discount this years quota to make ends meet right now. I guess I feel that a bird in the hand is the right way to go. Get what you can now and worry about tomorrow in the future. Next year may be better if you can survive by discounting now. It has worked for me and I am still going strong. It really is a simple business principle. Keep your client base don't send them some where else.

Dr Mike H., they just call the local game catcher and sell them to another farm, quite simple. Now if you are talking about totally wild game well there is no cost in "wintering over" the game. The purchased quotas well "sale, sale,sale".

This whole thread doesnt make much sense to me.
There are so many factors that you have to take into consideration.

Iam not just talking about consetion fees and trophy prices.If i was a good Ph and had spent the last 20 years Ph i would also charge for and try make good money out of it.When you getting divorced do you go hire a any lawyer of the street or do you go hire a top dollar lawyer thats going to get the job done.So to me its the same for a Ph.If i had built a good name for myself and my skill was better than most iam going to charge for it.I would rather pay to go with someone that is good.WSith the knowlage that iam going to get what i want. and not some idiot thats going to tell me to shoot something just to get it over with.

Certain Ph and safari companies dont shoot all their quota and maintain more anti poaching guys to keep their quality and standards high.Its going to cost more than people who dont.For those people who think that doing business in africa is the same as the rest of the world.Come jump in the water is warm.

If you run a good operation and you have a good area you deserve to make money just like any other businessman.I really dont feel that you have to explain how much you spend on food and water and petrol.Those that want to pay must pay those that dont dont

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One has to laugh at how people look for the lowest price, and then expect the best service, when it comes to hunting in Africa.

In my experience, one cannot have both.

Thahts true IMO

Seloushunter

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Dr Mike H., they just call the local game catcher and sell them to another farm, quite simple. Now if you are talking about totally wild game well there is no cost in "wintering over" the game. The purchased quotas well "sale, sale,sale".

Sorry but in all my dealings with game I have never come accross this practise, cattle farming yes, but the seasonal capture and movement of game for purposes "wintering over"?????

Wow! is there even a smidgen of understanding what game farming in South Africa is all about.

These are not "cattle farms" gentlemen and game are not domestic animals.

These animal are "wild" ! Yes "wild" putting them behind a fence does not make them "tame" any attempt physically handle them like cattle they die ! Capturing game en masse and moving them is not only prohibitively expensive and a massively complicated undertaking it is ssomething that cannot and should not be undertaken by anyone who is not qualified to do so; and as anyone who has actually done it can attest to to physically and wholly rid of property of game is very difficult if not impossible.

Our game laws, wildlife enforcement and vetinary restrictions will in all likelyhood not allow the practice even if an owner is so well heeled that he can actually afford to to undertake such an operation.

An by the way what do you think game would cost to hunt if the cost included the price to move them from farm to farm ?

ALF, what are you talking about. It is very common in RSA to buy and sell "wild game". One rancher has an over stock of say Impala he hires a "game catcher" to take X# of Impala off his property and sell them to another ranch or thru a game auction. There was a PH that was killed a couple of years back by a Cape Bufffalo in a corral at an auction.

There are some pretty blantant put and take operations in RSA and I am not talking about LION! The hunt is booked and the hunter wants XY&Z species with set minimum scores. The animials are bought and released just prior to the hunt. Now that is canned hunting with a cannery.

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species with set minimum scores.

Do you mean SCI scores?

Sorry, could help it.

Geesh, you guys are arguing about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin? It's been done already.

The bottom line is hunters will go on a hunt that suits their goals when they have the spare money to pay a price that seems reasonable to them. Outfitters will sell their hunts at prices that will hopefully keep them in business for the long term. If they can't sell enough of them at that price to cover their annual fixed expenses for a short period they have the option of lowering the price (elasticity) or selling fewer hunts. Which of these choices is best is sometimes not knowable at the time of sale.

Alf:

Regarding your game farming comments: Not surprisingly, you're absolutely correct. The idea of "calling the local game catcher" and moving unsold animals is silly. It takes months of scheduling to get a game catcher to HOPEFULLY show up when he is supposed to. In one case of which I have personal knowledge, it was decided that an enclosure of 2500 hectares had too many Oryx so they scheduled a game catcher to come remove about 400 animals. Approximately 8 weeks after they were initially scheduled to arrive, they showed up, worked the area with helicopters, etc and wound up catching just over 100 Oryx. It ain't as simple as some would think........and "the local game catcher" is not found as locally as some would think.

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ALF, I am not sure about the number I just know I was on a property in Natal and I saw this hugh enclosed corral and ask about it and was told it was for holding captured game and I was told this property was basically a holding area for the game they captured. They had a wee bit of hunting on the property but it was basically a holding farm for the game trade. I guess all South Africians are less than truthfull just like some that post here. It had a funnel and shutes etc. What do I know.