The staus of the economy is starting to show. I just got a email blast from Jack Atchinson (sp) with north american and african hunts carrying 25%+ discounts some offered for 09 and 10.

Wait til Oct...

While some are salivating over these price reductions, I believe this will be bad for the industry in the long term.

I know PH's that have only 1 hunt booked thus far this year.

My friends in the business are telling me these price reductions are only the tip of the iceberg. Later in the year they will drop seriously.

One has to laugh at how people look for the lowest price, and then expect the best service, when it comes to hunting in Africa.

In my experience, one cannot have both.

Agreed.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
One has to laugh at how people look for the lowest price, and then expect the best service, when it comes to hunting in Africa.

In my experience, one cannot have both.

You get what you pay for in life.

When you cut your price you always look for ways to cut your cost and preserve your margin. If you jump on a low price hunt make sure that you know what you are getting. Still, a low budget African hunt could still be a lot better than no African hunt - for both the outfitter and the hunter.

quote:

Posted 14 April 2009 23:58 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
One has to laugh at how people look for the lowest price, and then expect the best service, when it comes to hunting in Africa.

In my experience, one cannot have both.



You get what you pay for in life.

Well, I know some expensive women that will prove you wrong!

I'm always cautious on deals like this. While you're paying the asking price, I find there's often resentment over the pricing, even though you aren't responsible for the decline in demand. While one can theorize about the laws of supply and demand, it's somehow different when you're the one bearing the brunt of it. Might make for strained campfire discussions.

All that said, I don't know what the buyer can do, other than just offer to pay more.

quote:

Originally posted by TerryR:
Still, a low budget African hunt could still be a lot better than no African hunt - for both the outfitter and the hunter.

Very well said.

I'm leaving in 3 weeks for a hunt in Alaska that I paid for 6 months ago; since I reserved my spot, & paid in full, the hunt has been reduced by $2,000. That's a little hard to swallow, but life goes on. However, until the economy improves, I'll be looking for the bargains & take my chances.

I disagree with those who say you have to suffer when you get a good deal. I have purchased 3 major african hunting trips at the very best places in Africa. Yes it was last min. but everything when fine. I paid $30 grand at Bundu in Tan in 05.
Got my lion on the 5th day. Bought a ele. hunt in Bots last Sept with Yohan C. 50lbs on the 6th day.
Both these were about 1/2 price.

Its not my fault the business is bad. Hell my business is bad. If they offer I am going

I always remember a city bureaucrat telling me angrily, "If you're low bid, I expect 110% performance." I had to get out of his office before I told him what an idiotic statement that is. No business is going to "throw in" extras when they've been beat down to survival mode.

At the same time, a reputable business will deliver what it promised.

How many times have I seen a salesman walk into our office looking to close a sale, thinking BMW on a big order, to leave, looking depressed, thinking Chevrolet? But, hey, they wouldn't sign onto the deal if they weren't getting what they needed, even if not what they wanted.

We've taken jobs at too damned low a price. I guess we could skimp and rush the job and try to screw the customer out of a few bucks. Better option is to deliver in spades, and make a repeat customer. Funny, but delivering in spades doesn't cost much more than screwing the customer, especially since dilivering in spades is very often a matter of attitude and willingness. Little S part in the SG&A (Sales, General & Administrative expenses) for a repeat customer.

Better businesses everywhere aren't different.

JPK

"you get what you pay for."

Now that is an optomist speaking.

I'd add to that, when you are lucky!

A good business should always strive to give a uniform level of service... I dont see why outfitters should be any different... it's their prerogative to offer discount to increase sales but quality shouldnt suffer.

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

One has to laugh at how people look for the lowest price, and then expect the best service, when it comes to hunting in Africa.

In my experience, one cannot have both.

Oh my God! Somebody with some common sense.

Dealing with people, sometimes I wonder how their brains actually work.

I went to a hunting shoow, and visited an exhibitor from South Africa.

The man running the show there ust have been given some quick lessons in hunting "ethics", which he misunderstood totally!

As our discussion progressed, I asked him about shooting more than one animal from some species.

That really got bhim going, he gave me a lecture on "why the hell would ANYONE wish to kill more than one animal in any species? Didn't this individual realize how valuable animals are, ans should be protected for future generations!"

It seems the simple fact of shooting animals raised on a farm to be shot, and the more the better, has escaped him.

This fact was brought home to me after I left him, and called someone in South Africa about hunting with him.

His daily price came down so much after he realized there were going to be a number of us, and we wanted to shoot all ofered species. His only stipulation was that each of us shoot "at least 3 animals" during our 2 week's hunt!

We all had a great hunt, and he was very happy of the number of animals we all shot.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
At the same time, a reputable business will deliver what it promised.

How many times have I seen a salesman walk into our office looking to close a sale, thinking BMW on a big order, to leave, looking depressed, thinking Chevrolet? But, hey, they wouldn't sign onto the deal if they weren't getting what they needed, even if not what they wanted.

We've taken jobs at too damned low a price. I guess we could skimp and rush the job and try to screw the customer out of a few bucks. Better option is to deliver in spades, and make a repeat customer. Funny, but delivering in spades doesn't cost much more than screwing the customer, especially since dilivering in spades is very often a matter of attitude and willingness. Little S part in the SG&A (Sales, General & Administrative expenses) for a repeat customer.

Better businesses everywhere aren't different.

JPK

If I may, I would like to add a little arithmetic into the equation. In April 2007 one USD was approximately equal to 7.15 Rand. At present, one USD is equal to approximately 9.03 Rand. In other words, an equal amount of dollars today, compared to 2007, is worth 26% more. So, in South Africa and Namibia at least, PH's in South Africa are receiving 26% more in Rand if they kept exactly the same USD price for their hunts. I don't claim to know how much of their overhead is Dollar liabilities versus Rand liabilities, but they could in fact lower their prices and still receive an equivalent amount of Rand as per previous years. Why should quality suffer?

Wink, when you point that fact out all they do is cry about how expensive it is to travel to the shows outside Africa. The outside travel is a small part of their overall cost of living. I tell my PH this all the time when thr Rand is weak he benefits. I point out he is getting more rand than the butcher, baker etc down the street. It is stupid for an outfitter to give less service to a hunter that purchased a discounted hunt, if that hunter has a good hunt where will he more likely return to when things get better duh. I guess when money flows for you like some it is only reasonable to equate price with service.

Yeah I can see where one would lower their professional standards and pride in work over the percentage of their profit.

Cutting prices to the bone is sometimes necessary in the bad times, get over it. You can make money back later but you can ruin your reputation anytime and getting that back isn't a function of money.

Wink,

Mate, you're assuming that prices here have remained the same......... sadly, that isn't the case. I don't know what the official SA inflation rate is but I can tell you the cost of living here has increased dramatically oer the last 2 or 3 years.

Fuel for example (which obviously affects prices of all goods) has increased by about 50% over the last 3 years.

When I first entered the work force, part time packing groceries at a supermarket at age 15yo, I started to complain about how little one job paid and how I would have to keep mowing lawns for pocket money to save for what I wanted.

My Grandfather, a veteran of two world wars pulled me aside and said "lots of little fish make a meal".

It held true then and holds true now.

"lots of little fish make a meal".

It held true then and holds true now.

Looking for the perfect bullet is like looking for the perfect woman. At some stage you are going to have to compromise or you will spend the rest of your life looking for what does not exist. - Me

Moral of the story appears to be to have a few women!

Code4, your grandfather was so correct and I bet the older you get the wiser he becomes. As usual the tears flow from RSA uh where in the world has fuel not risen in price. With all the complaints out of Afrcia why in the world would anyone want to live there and be in business to boot? Personally I live in the greatest country in the world and enjoy traveling to other countries which increase my thankfulness for being able to live in the greatest country in the history of the world. It ain't perfect but it beats the hell out of all others. It must be because I don't know of any other country with so many imigrants and such a long line awaiting legal imigration - forget all the illegals.

I wasn't complaining at all...... just pointing out that like the rest of the world, prices have also increased here.

The problem with African hunting is that so many people visit Africa for a week or two on an occasional visit and then go home thinking for some bizarre reason that they're instant experts, not only on the one or two areas or countries they've been to, but the entire bloody continent and everything in it. Hell, some even write entire books on the subject despite their ignorance.

Also strange that some of these idiots seem to think that hunting companies should be run as charities. The cold hard facts are that as much as we enjoy what we do, we still need to do it at a reasonable profit....... just like any other business in any other part of the world.

Doesn't matter what you're buying. Whether it's a flight, a car, a fridge or any other service or product. It costs what it costs. If you want quality, don't buy cheap and the guys who are the most desperate will offer the cheapest deals but in return will obviously be forced to look for inexpensive solutions to budgeting.

Anyone who doesn't appeciate those facts of life is as dumb as a sack of spanners.

I quite agree that the world economy, or whatever, caused bookings to be down. Significantly down!

Just look at the flood of "Special Offers" that were posted just after the "Overseas Marketing Tour Season"! Surely if someone had a very good overseas marketing tour, all hunt periods would be sold out if offered at the 'correct' price? There would then be no need to offer some hunts at "Very Extra Special Super Discounted to Lower-than-ever Costs". Yet if you compare the actual prices in these super offers some are actually very significantly higher that what the same operators offered the same species for just before the overseas marketing tour? Confuse you? Sure it confuses me!

These difficult financial times are when the true custom safari operator really can get some business. The guys who have developed a culture of "That is our package, and our costs - take it or leave it!" now have to contend with the safari contractor that has a history of "Oh, you do not want that on your safari? Sure we can offer a safari without such-and-such at a significantly lower cost! Let's talk about what else we can eliminate or downscale to further reduce the total safari cost." Arranging a less costly safari is not about cutting corners to skimp on costs - it is about providing the level of service that the client wants AND CAN AFFORD!

There will always be the cheapest offer, which is not necessarily the best value for money offer! With due diligence, you usually get what you pay for!

Then there is the Andrew McLaren Safaris & Other Sponsors' 2009 Free Hunt offer to a lucky and deserving winner! Even I can hardly wait for the announcement; I can just imagine what the guys who have entered must feel like by now! Very soon somone will be very happy!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Steve, If you thought my post was directed at you it was not. If you took it that way I apologise. It simply followed yours.

The point I was trying to make is that we all have to look at different ways to get what we want. I want to hunt Africa. That means I can't afford to shoot trophy animals and pay for Taxidermy. I can afford to spend the time finding value and hunting herd management animals to achieve my dreams.

Code4, not to worry he wasn't refering to you. He was refering to those of us that have spent only a few weeks at a time in Africa and then post as experts. It is sort of like Steve's expertise on SCI. What I posted was nothing less than Econ 101. I mean look at Andrew's post it is a bit confising eh. When times get tough the tough get going. I am glad Steve isn't in the automobile business here in the states.

Code4

No mate, I didn't think your comments were directed to me at all and I appreciate your point completely.

My point was that an awful lot of people are often in search of the cheapest deal and then are unhappy with the quality etc. At the end of the day, you don't get a Westley Richards for the price of a Brno and you don't get a Rolls Royce for the price of a Ford....... exactly the same goes for African safaris.

I understand that not everyone can afford the Westley Richards or the Roller and that's also fine. The problem lies with the instant experts who fail to understand the real cost of safari and thinks everyone is just out to take them for a ride...... and that simply isn't the case.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Wink,

Mate, you're assuming that prices here have remained the same......... sadly, that isn't the case. I don't know what the official SA inflation rate is but I can tell you the cost of living here has increased dramatically oer the last 2 or 3 years.

Fuel for example (which obviously affects prices of all goods) has increased by about 50% over the last 3 years.

Actually Steve, I'm not assuming anything at all, just stating that the exchange rates haven't been unfavorable for those who quote prices in dollars but have most of their liabilities in Rand. Each can draw his own conclusions. I haven't and don't yet intend to write any books on Africa, but I lived in the Central African Republic for three years, Burkina Faso for three years, Djibouti for five years and Madacasgar for three years. My professional responsibility is to sell engineering services in Africa and I have a very good idea of costs in most African countries and compete head to head with South African firms, when I'm not partenering with them in a joint venture. We don't operate as a charity either.

Wink,

My comments weren't directed at you either.

DOJ,

I didn't mention you in my post. I was referring to the general concept of instant experts who don't know what they're talking about.

However, if you think the cap fits, then perhaps you ought to try it on.

Steve you don't have to refer to me as anyone knows that has posted or read posts on this board who you are refering to or are you refering to everyone that posts here that disagrees with you most of the time.

You must remember I am not always right but I am never wrong,eh.

Oh by the way I wear adjustable caps, eh.

About 10 years ago now I heard an economic stategist say we are in a "Walmart and Tiffany's world". What does this mean? You need to either be the best and people will pay top dollar (think Jeff Rand, Robin Hurt etc.). If you are not the top, then you need to offer goods for the lowest prices possible (ie South African or may Namibian farm hunts).

It is the middle guy that gets killed because they are not the "best" nor are they the "cheapest" (think Sears, Circuit City etc).

I'm convinced that there is a HUGE untapped safari market for "wild" Africa and dangerous game without all the camp bells and whistles and staff. I don't go to the African Bush to pretend it is like a 5 star hotel in Boston, it's not. There aren't any other hunts in the world that operate on the scale of African hunts so the statement that the overhead is huge is true but not needed. There is lots of help in camp because African labor was dirt cheap, if it isn't now then cut back on staff like everywhere else.

If you go hunting anywhere else in the world you have your guide and cook, and that's it. Do we really need 15 people in camp, hell no.

There certainly is a market for high end African hunts with all the trimmings but I have absolutely no doubts that there are 10 times as many guys who would rather sleep in a tent in wild Africa for a fraction of the price.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
One has to laugh at how people look for the lowest price, and then expect the best service, when it comes to hunting in Africa.

In my experience, one cannot have both.

It is also very easy to overpay for quality. Value is important not price.

GeoffM24, in 2001 I hunted the Eastern Cape and we went to a farm (Kudu) that was just trying ot get a foot hold into the hunting market. I was a nice clean farm house without any real staffing and the PH got our morning tea etc.. While hunting with the PH one day he ask me about the property and I told him it was nice and clean etc.. He then told me he had spoken with the owner and told him "If you want to hunt international hunters you must bring the property up to snuff as this what the hunters expect", my question is the age old question which comes first the chicken or the egg. Is the up scale because it is expected or does the hunter expect because it has been provided.

I think alot of people going to Afrcia have seen the old movies i e the full staffed caravans etc and that is "Africa". I know I have told many people Africa spoils one and going to a western elk camp with an outhouse or just a hole privy is tough, eh.

While some of this argument is true about quality, it also goes without saying that there is always the mentality that someone will charge what the market will bear. Over the past two years gasoline prices have been from $1.50 to over $4.00 a gallon. As far as I could tell I was getting the same gas. If it wasn't, I couldn't tell the difference and it worked the same. If someone wants to reduce the quality of the hunt because of the demand or exchange rate, I am sure it would only hurt them in the end after the word gets out upon return of the hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Wink,

Mate, you're assuming that prices here have remained the same......... sadly, that isn't the case. I don't know what the official SA inflation rate is but I can tell you the cost of living here has increased dramatically oer the last 2 or 3 years.

Fuel for example (which obviously affects prices of all goods) has increased by about 50% over the last 3 years.

Shakiri,

Assuming your 50% fuel price increase, paid in Rand, is correct, for an out fitter paid in dollars, the real cost of fuel utilized on safari has increased 26% less than 50%.

While a 37% increase {50%x(100%-26%)} is significant, it is significantly less than 50%.

The same math would apply to every other cost increase or decrease.

(This illustration also assumes Wink's dollar/rand calculations are correct.)

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
At the same time, a reputable business will deliver what it promised.

How many times have I seen a salesman walk into our office looking to close a sale, thinking BMW on a big order, to leave, looking depressed, thinking Chevrolet? But, hey, they wouldn't sign onto the deal if they weren't getting what they needed, even if not what they wanted.

We've taken jobs at too damned low a price. I guess we could skimp and rush the job and try to screw the customer out of a few bucks. Better option is to deliver in spades, and make a repeat customer. Funny, but delivering in spades doesn't cost much more than screwing the customer, especially since dilivering in spades is very often a matter of attitude and willingness. Little S part in the SG&A (Sales, General & Administrative expenses) for a repeat customer.

Better businesses everywhere aren't different.

JPK

I agree with every point you make. I never meant to imply "screw" the customer. We ran a 68 year-old family firm and we enjoyed a reputation for always delivering the best. This is off the subject of the thread, but in any government bid situation, when "the sharks are in the water" and you have to be low bid to get the work, a smart business meets the spec, delivers and backs up the product, but doesn't cut into their probably "bare minimum" margin putting in more than the spec called for, just because an obnoxious purchasing agent demands it after the bid opening. If the product, as speced, is going to result in something that doesn't work, then that should be covered before the bid is due.

Regarding hunting, I don't claim to have vast experience, but I would venture to guess that quite a few of the customers on outfitted hunts that shopped around a lot and went with the "cheapest" outfitter/hunting company tend to bitch quite a lot about the quality of the hunt.