Ladies and gentlemen: I thought I would try a different angle on how to maximize and match rifle selection to realistic goals in my hunting future so here goes:

Given my age (52) and my foreseeable economic future, chances are that I might get to shoot one good elephant (didn't consider the PAC route), no lion but a few more buffalo and a leopard or two in my hunting career.

Given those parameters, what heavy rifle would you choose given the options below. For those of you that know me, yes I am having second thoughts about changing my Hein to 416 Rigby instead of the 450 Dakota. This weekend I'll have the opportunity to shoot a 450 Dakota. jorge

Question:
Which of the calibers below best suit the hunting parameters described above?

Choices:
450 Class (Dakota/Rigby)
416 Rigby

 

I voted for the 416 Rigby. A true Classic that does it all.

Jorge:

I voted for the .416 Rigby. There is always something to say for factory ammo availability, and if a 410 grain bullet at 2400 fps+ can't kill it, it probably don't need to be dead!

I remember Buzz's video on elephants during the PH interviews. All had a caveat about the .416 being a fine rifle for elephant.

Jorge,

We're in about the same boat and I've gone through the same decision making process. I bought a 416 Rigby. It made a lot of sense ballisticly with the added bonus of tradition and nostalga.

.416 rigby!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

This weekend I'll have the opportunity to shoot a 450 Dakota. jorge

That will probably answer your question. Of your two options, 416 Rigby in a RSM. Double check feeding with NF FP. Then go whack something.

Keith

I will PROBABLY never have the chance to go to Africa again, but on the off chance such a miracle should happen I have sold my 470 Double and kept my 416Rigby. The last Elephant I took was with this 416Rigby so I KNOW it's capable of doing the job. That should give you a hint as to how I feel.

Unless you have a career change soon and get the opportunity to produce stacks of elephants, any 416 is the way to go.

Jorge,
I am 52 and my station in life is very similar to yours. Being an over-analytical engineer with a focus on the details, I agonized over this very decision as seen in many previous posts.

I have been lucky enough to have recieved excellent advice and council from experienced hunters on this board and off this board.

I decided on a .416 in Rem Mag or Rigby for the simple reason that the extra firepower of the .450's is not realistically needed by me. I am a solid shot and don't flinch (yet), so I am staying with the .416's.

I have read Bill Stewart's book, Gregor Woods book and Boddington's book, as well as a host of others. No one scoffs at the .416's. Everyone says - shoot what you shoot the best and are most comfortable with.

Go shoot the .450, see if you like it. If you like it - buy it. If it thumps you cross-eyed, go with a .416

Good luck and let us know what you decide...

I doubt you'll get many informed votes for the 450. I just returned from Zim and 2 of the 3 PH's for Charlton McCallum shoot 416 Rigbys...and they are both founding owners of the company and are serious elephant hunters.

Jorge,

Get the 416, then you can sell me your RSM.

David

Shoot the .450 and see what you think. It cannot hurt you to have more power if you handle it well (I presume you will take your leopard and any plainsgame with another rifle you already have), although the .416 has a great reputation for penetration and has handily taken large numbers of buffalo and elephant.

Yukon Delta failed to mention that Buzz is trading up to a .450 bore if I recall correctly. Based on discussions with Myles I think he would go even larger if the right .505 fell into his lap. And Alan prefers his .458 when he is up close with elephant. But they are all PHs with regular and close elephant contact -- a different situation from yours.

the .416, Jorge.

Jorge,

I voted for the .416 Rigby of those choices, but I would like to give it a whirl with a .400 Jeffery (.450-.400 3").

jim

.416 Rigby

Comfort, carry and capabilities. The only thought is... if the 416 is going to be heavy or just as... ill take the 450. Both are going to do everything asked... but are you under the recoil and weight?

George,

Both are fine calibers, use the one that turns your crank...

Best regards;
Brett

Jorge,
You know how I voted! .416 Rigby... I did it all with the caliber last month.

Why not consider the best dangerous game caliber of all time,the 458 Lott!

I vote .416 Rigby.

Nostalgia, romance, pure class, and performance.

Also, don't forget that Woodleigh now makes .416 caliber 450 gr solids and softs.

(Full disclosure: I own a Ruger M77 in .416 Rigby but I have never hunted with it. And, I have not hunted any dangerous game.)

Just my armchair opinion....
-Bob F.

I would think the 416 is good for elephant, simply because you're going to be using solids. They should penentrate just fine and do a wonderful job. I haven't shot an elephant yet so I have no experience to base that on.
I'm going against the grain here, but for buffalo I'd rather use the 450. I prefer soft points for buffalo and here the 450 just walks all over the 416. Unless you've seen both of these calibers used in the field by someone who can truly handle a big bore you wouldn't believe the difference in effect. The 416 kills them alright, but the 450 flattens them... It comes with a price in terms of recoil, and for many it's likely too much but if you've got the ability to handle it there is no lesser cartridge remotely as effective, IMO.
I have both calibers and if I were forced to keep just one, the 450 would be it w/o question. Unlike many here, the nostalgia, romance, class or whatever other adjectives folks like to use doesn't make me want to use any particular cartridge. The one that best delivers the goods for the job at hand is what I want to have.

Jorge, my friend I voted for the 416 Rigby, simply because I know you love your bolt rifles, and old proven chamberings. IOW, I voted the way I think you would vote!

I'm not into prepritory cartridges, so the Dakota would not get my vote, even if I wanted a 450, and I'd come much closer to the 458 LOTT, for myself in a bolt rifle, in fact, I did.

As you know, if I personally were going to a .40 cal rifle to do all my big stuff, it would be a S/S double chambered for the 450/400NE 3" Jefery. But that is me, Not you. I think you will like the 416 Rigby best of the two you mention. It will do a good job for you, if you do your part! ENJOY!

John S,

The 450 Dakota may numb buffalo but so will the 505 Gibbs, the 500 Jeffery, the.....

It never ends. But they are bruisers on both ends.

If I had to pick one rifle, I would be in good company with many, many PH's if I picked a 416. Can't get more versatile than one of the 416's.

(I'd pick the Taylor or Rem over the Rigby but that wasn't the quewstion!)

Thanks (most) for the great contributions. My biggest concern for the 450 is my ability to handle the recoil.

I did not include the 458 Lott because I don't personally like the cartridge. It's straight walled case makes it more difficult to feed properly and to get it to 2200 plus I believe you run into the same problems as when you try to push the 458 Win Mag to 2100. Mac, you probably read my mind about 90% accurate. As most of you know I own and like the 416 Rigby very much and if I could, my 45 of choice would be a 450 #2 in a good double, but presently I just can't swing a double. Now another good reason for me to get the 416 is that I could sell my present RSM 416 and save up for a decent double in a 45 plus, but I think the 450/400 is just not enough for me. Thanks again and hopefully we can keep this thread going so we can all share our experiences with these great calibers. jorge

It is no problem to get a .458 Win Mag to shoot North Fork 450 gr. solids or softs to 2250 with AA 2230 without even maxing case capacity. So a Lott should be very easy to load to 2250 or above.

You can get 2300 fps in the Lott with 500 gr. Woodleighs/Speer/etc. and 2200 fps with the 550 gr. Woodleighs even if you have to cram the powder in there.

The alternatives to suffering the recoil from a Lott is to shoot reduced loads except when hunting or don't shoot it at all when not hunting! If you had two identical rifles, one in the Lott and one in a 416 Rigby, like the Rugers, just shoot the 416 for practcie and pick up the Lott when hunting the biggest stuff.

Up to about the .500 A-Square class, bigger bored and more powerful rifles are better for DG as long as you can shoot them as well as lesser but adequate rifles.

That is just a plain old unchangeable fact of life.

I voted .450 only because .500 wasn't an option. Beyond the .500 A-Square class, one has passed the point of diminishing returns, I think.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
John S,

The 450 Dakota may numb buffalo but so will the 505 Gibbs, the 500 Jeffery, the.....

It never ends. But they are bruisers on both ends.

If I had to pick one rifle, I would be in good company with many, many PH's if I picked a 416. Can't get more versatile than one of the 416's.

(I'd pick the Taylor or Rem over the Rigby but that wasn't the quewstion!)

Will.
I totally agree. All of the ones you mentioned will numb them. But the 450 was mentioned AND it's got a better selection of cheap bullets for practice. And like you, my own pick of the 416s is the Remington, and since having one the old Rigby has been relegated to the gun safe. Just too much weight and bulk for the performance it offers.

I voted for the 450. Now, I have not been to Africa yet but I have owned a 460 Wby for about 15 years. My experience with shooting dangerous game rifles is in that category so that is how I voted.

Landrum

I just bought a Ruger Bolt gun in 458 Lott. I am smallish, but not a wimp when it comes to recoil. I shoot a fair amount of 338 Lapua on a 995 Sako. All I can is holyshit when it comes to handloads making more than 2200 fps with a 500 grainer in that round. Makes my neck hurt. Recoil is brisk and takes genuine physical exertion to stand up to more than 4 rounds at a time.

I voted .416 Rigby over the .450 Dakota for your purpose which includes leopard. Norma offers quality brass for the .416 Rigby if you are a handloader and if not factory ammo is available. The .416 Rigby operates at lower pressure which is a plus. As a side note, I think the Ruger No1 chambered in .416 Rigby is a sleek, compact, well-balanced rifle.

Jorge:
I am now 65 and about 6 years ago went through the same process. I settled on a 416 Rigby and would do it again tomorrow. I had doubles up through 500NE and bolts up to 500 Jeff and have sold them all. On my last elephant hunt I carried the 416 all but one day because we were also hunting other things. The 500 stayed in the truck. I lost a buffalo on my first safari with a 375 that appeared to be well hit and then switched to the 416. I'm, sure it was my fault but it caused me to "discover" the 416. It works well on brown bear too! At this point in my life the 416 is still comfortable to shoot without problems. I just sold my last Lott because it was no longer fun to shoot. Remember the 416 Rigby has a lot more energy potential if you feel you need more than is offered by factory loads.

Jorge,

If you can handle the weight and/or recoil at the end of a long day treking, I vote for the 450 Dakota.

I love mine, and have it stripped down to 10 pounds w peep sight and no sling for elephant.

Add one pound for scope, rings and sling for PG or cats.

If you cant lug an 11 pound brick around all day at 120 degrees F than by all means go to the 416 in an 8,5 pounder.

I am surprised you would put leopard and elephant in same sentance however. Yo dont need a 416 or 450 for cats, at least any Ive worked with including 650 pound Bengals (Oakland and Portland zoos).

DG hunting is like flying an airplane; number of take offs and landings should be the same.

You can land safely w a 375, but if elephant is your mission I sure do trust the 450 Dakota. My cow was either literally or figiuratievly knocked off her feet w some less than perfect shots.

It is also one of the easiest ctgs to reload I have ever owned.

Using the 400 grain NF for PG, cats and even buff puts it in the 416 (on steroids) class and w a heavier solid for elephant, you have a real elephant rifle.

Send me a PM for load data, I can give you a ton of it, if you buy one.

Andy

Neither . Cancel your order with Hein, put 20% of those funds into practice ammo, use your RSM 416 (assuming it performs as expected), and bank the other 80% towards your next hunt.

PWS: You kill me with your logic . But alas it's just one of those things I HAVE to have and besides the rifle's paid for. Any, et,al. The reason I included leopard was for info only to describe my safari wish list. I just wouldn't use that cannon for that and neither for PG. Yes RECOIL is my one concern, maybe not now as at 52 I still manage to run about 6 miles/dy and lift weights, but I hope to be hunting well into my grey years. The other issue that bugs me a little bit is the "white elephant" aspect of a 450 Dakota, even though I have a huge lifetime supply of brass.

I already own a Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby that I handload for and used it in Africa for buffalo. Recoil is not even close to being an issue with that rifle. In any event, this thread's already exceede my expectations as I enjoy your the well-reasoned responses (well there is one turd in the punchbowl in here) based on your individual experiences. The order as it stands right now is for a 450 Dakota (BTW, I would have preferred the 450 Rigby "just because" but ammo & brass is out of this world scarce and expensive to the point of being stupid. Thanks again all and I hope the posts keep coming. jorge

.416 Rigby

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
It is no problem to get a .458 Win Mag to shoot North Fork 450 gr. solids or softs to 2250 with AA 2230 without even maxing case capacity. So a Lott should be very easy to load to 2250 or above.

Sorry for the double post, can't edit the previous for some reason.

I handload my Lott and easily get 2300 fps+. I had to play with it to get it avg 2235 fps. This is with a 500gr Hornady RN IB.
I don't have my loading data handy so I cannot tell you how many grains.
I'll check that later when I have it handy.

Recoil is no problem, my CZ-550 soaks it up, plus I am a "linebacker"... 6'3" 240.

quote:

And like you, my own pick of the 416s is the Remington, and since having one the old Rigby has been relegated to the gun safe. Just too much weight and bulk for the performance it offers.

John, I have the .416 Rem, but have not shot it too much. I was interested in everyone's thoughts on the .416 Rem vs. the .416 Rigby.

416 or 404
ozhunter

quote:

I just bought a Ruger Bolt gun in 458 Lott. I am smallish, but not a wimp when it comes to recoil. I shoot a fair amount of 338 Lapua on a 995 Sako. All I can is holyshit when it comes to handloads making more than 2200 fps with a 500 grainer in that round. Makes my neck hurt. Recoil is brisk and takes genuine physical exertion to stand up to more than 4 rounds at a time.

390ish, I have the RSM in .458 Lott and love it. But, as most on this site know, I've had nothing but problems with the thing breaking stocks. So, though I can recommend the caliber without reservation, I would suggest doing whatever is necessary to reinforce the stock on the Ruger - I finally had mine totally rebuilt.