Just back from another wonderful hunt with Tshabezi / Dudley Rodgers in Zim. I will post a report later. Right now be warned that if you have any ammo that says that it is greater than .500 anywhere you will not be allowed to put it on the plane.

A Direct quote from a TSA intellectual Giant. " I know what small arms is. Point two two three is small arms. This is point five-seven-seven and it is too big.

God help us.

Unbelievable.

That's crazy. Were you able to continue with it? I don't see you giving in easily to that scenario.

Perhaps he was referring to his own IQ?

This has been covered here before and it is unfortunately the law.

I sure hope enough people will write their congressman to get this changed. There are no shot gun shells that meet the requirement except the .410. 505 gibbs is out. What a mess!

It's a goofy law. I took a 50 Alaskan which is actually a .512 so I was illegal? Quite a few guys from here travel with over .50 calibers on a regular basis. What does everyone else do? Maybe it's a matter of spotty enforcement.

As to shotguns, do they make a distinction between gauge and caliber?

The biggest danger to our freedoms is the existance of

BUREAUCRATS/BUREAUCRACY! Believe me, I work in

one. Even the terrorists are a distant second place threat.

Don't think that I am kidding, I am NOT!

Would you mind posting the link to this new regulation from the TSA?

It's not a TSA regulation and it's not new (and the TSA officer who spoke with els was way off base in his reasoning, although right in his conclusion).

Just search the term "ITAR" and you will learn more than you ever wanted to know about exporting rifles and ammunition from the USA.

Hope this is not a usual check as I plan to hunt with a 585 next year. What has TSA got to do with this anyway???

Dak

The TSA is a division of The Homeland Security Dept.

Then inspect outgoing baggage. It would appear that

they have been informed to some degree about the

federal law that prohibits taking a firearm out of the

country that is .50 cal or larger.

While leaving the country with 50 Browning is a no, no, I thnought there was an exemption for sporting/hunting rifle ammo.

@%$#%#% %@$@^@^%$!!!!!!!

this is absolute @#!@!$#

quote:

Originally posted by els:
Just back from another wonderful hunt with Tshabezi / Dudley Rodgers in Zim. I will post a report later. Right now be warned that if you have any ammo that says that it is greater than .500 anywhere you will not be allowed to put it on the plane.

A Direct quote from a TSA intellectual Giant. " I know what small arms is. Point two two three is small arms. This is point five-seven-seven and it is too big.

God help us.

I'll bet it was Dulles.

SAFARIKID needs to chime in on this…

He just recently returned from a Buff hunt with his 4 Bore, 600 Overkill, and 500 Jeffery…

But this leads me to a question for others whom have traveled to Africa with big bores?

Why can’t you just ship some of your ammo to your PH well in advance of your hunt?

Wouldn’t this surpass some of the issues you might run into?

Matt V.

...FWIW, I went DEN/IAD/JNB/BUQ in March, returned April in reverse order. Other than the applicable S/N check, and ammo weight, nobody at TSA questioned the rifle caliber/ammo (other than the fellow in DEN asked if I were gonna' shoot elephant?)The rifle was a GMA .505 Gibbs, and 40 rounds of ammo.
Sounds to me as tho some hotshot TSA yahoo was on a mission!
Also, a good friend left Sunday thru IAD with his .585Nyati and he called just prior to boarding...he had no hiccups either.

My understanding was that "sporting" ammo was not subject to that law. Many people pass through with everything up to 2 bore ammo.

My close friend just returned from a trip to South Africa and Tanzania. On of the guns he had with him was a double .500 NE. He didn't report any problems. Are you sure this applies to sporting firearms?

Dave

If I recall correctly the law exempts BORE/GAUGE sized firearms.

There is NOT an exception for sporting rifles and ammo .50 cal and over.

Most often this appears to be a law that receives very little enforcement effort.

That said, it is the law.

This has come up here before.

Here is the catch. A rifle over .50 caliber is considered to be a "destructive device." They fall under the same category of regulation that ClassIII firearms do and are regulated by the NFA. That's why temporary export is not permitted.

However, the ATF does not consider double rifles (regardless of bore diameter) to be "destructive devices." And exceptions can be made (as have been for some on this board) to have their "larger than 50 caliber" rifles (bolt action, single shot or otherwise) classified as sporting rifles rather than destructive devices.

So even though your sporting rifle or double rifle of greater than 50 caliber is not a "destructive device" - US customs does not allow for export of anything other than Category 1(a) firearms, even though your particular Category 2(a) firearm is not considered a destructive device and the ATF classifies it as a "sporting rifle."

The bore diameter is still larger than .50 and it still falls under Category 2(a).

I think Jack is right though, as this seems to be rarely enforced.


Here are the details in the law:


International Traffic in Arms Regulations.

Sec. 123.17 Exports of firearms and ammunition.

(c) District Directors of Customs shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I (a) of Sec.121.1 of this subchapter and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor, provided that:
(1) A declaration by the U.S. person and an inspection by a customs officer is made;
(2) The firearms and accompanying ammunition must be with the U.S. person's baggage or effects, whether accompanied or unaccompanied (but not mailed); and
(3) They must be for that person's exclusive use and not for reexport or other transfer of ownership.



PART 121.1 —THE UNITED STATES
MUNITIONS LIST

Category I-Firearms
*(a) Nonautomatic, semi-automatic and fully automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive, and all components and parts for such firearms. (See § 121.9 and §§ 123.16-123.19 of this subchapter.)

(b) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications, and specifically designed or modified components therefor; firearm silencers and suppressors, including flash suppressors.

*(c) Insurgency-counterinsurgency type firearms or other weapons having a special military application (e.g. close assault weapons systems) regardless of caliber and all components and parts therefor.

(d) Technical data (as defined in § 120.21 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in § 120.8 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category. (See § 125.4 of this subchapter for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.

Category II-Artillery Projectors
*(a) Guns over caliber .50, howitzers, mortars, and recoilless rifles.

*(b) Military flamethrowers and projectors.

(c) Components, parts, accessories and attachments for the articles in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this category, including but not limited to mounts and carriages for these articles.

(d) Technical data (as defined in 120.21 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in § 120.8 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category. (See § 125.4 of this subchapter for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.

So, 50 caliber, inclusive and on down, as it says in the regs right?

God help the poor bastard wanting to take a 56 Spencer on a hunt.

Isn't a .577 NE really a 28 gauge rifle?

With rifling, of course.

The International Traffic in Arms Regulations ("ITAR") are administered by the State Department and are independent of BATFE regulations and enforcement, including those relating to destructive devices.

Licenses from the State Department Directorate of Defense Trade Controls are needed to export what the ITAR define as "defense articles."

Defense articles are defined in the ITAR to include firearms of many kinds, including sporting rifles. Category I(a) of §121.1 of the ITAR specifically includes: "Nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7mm)."

Section 123.17(c) of the ITAR, which cross-references Category I(a) of Section 121.1, provides that U.S. persons can temporarily export three nonautomatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm) and up to 1,000 rounds of ammunition for such firearms for personal use. This is the so-called "hunting trip" exemption to the export licensing requirement.

Notes:

1. These regulations do not expressly permit the export of any semi-automatic weapons. Category I(a) of Section 121.1 refers to both "nonautomatic" and "semi-automatic" firearms (as though they are considered by the law to be two different categories of firearms), yet Section 123.17(c), which permits temporary exports as described above, refers only to "nonautomatic" firearms. Neither term is specifically defined in the law. So, can semi-automatic firearms be exported? You tell me.

2. Neither do these regulations specifically define "caliber." Does "caliber" mean bore diameter, bullet diameter, groove diameter or what? One would hope that the common definition of caliber, namely, bore diameter measured in inches or millimeters, would be the intended one. If the common definition is the one intended, as seems likely, then the hunting trip exemption covers all "nonautomatic" firearms having a bore diameter of up to .50 inch or 12.7 mm. This would mean that U.S. citizens can export the .500 Nitro Express, the .500 Jeffery, the .505 Gibbs and the .500 A-Square under the hunting trip exemption, but not the .577 Nitro Express, the .585 Nyati, the .600 Overkill, the .600 Nitro Express, breechloading bore rifles and so on.

3. Sporting shotguns (including semi-automatics), muzzle loaders and BB and pellet guns are specifically exempt from the ITAR. No other particular kind or category of firearm is exempt.

As I have said before, it is another question entirely whether, or when, or against which poor, unfortunate bastard, this law may ever be enforced.

SCI and NRA should work to reform this law, IMHO.

Agreed.

Now to add to the anti 50 cal hysteria - The latest school incident was in St.John's U in NYC today. The student who had psychiatric history had a 50 cal MUZZLE LOADER ! ...The media will do it's part .One comment was " The rifle had powder in it but it's not known whether it had a live round inserted "

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:


The biggest danger to our freedoms is the existance of

BUREAUCRATS/BUREAUCRACY! Believe me, I work in

one. Even the terrorists are a distant second place threat.

Don't think that I am kidding, I am NOT!

Big Jack has hit the nail on the head!
I just got a "Disadvantaged" idiot that was interested in one thing and that was that she now had some authority for the first time in her blighted pitiful life. I don't have the energy to go into it but she was totally out of control. I was very very polite though out the conversation but some of the stuff that I got from her was truly amazing. I asked to see the regulation prohibiting me from carrying sporting ammunition. Her response was that she could not because her regulations were "classified". I know that sounds like I am making it up but that is exactly what she said. It went down hill from there.

I am afraid that with idiots like this gal being supervisors in government agencies our own government is going to do far more damage to our economy that Osama and his crew ever though about doing.

quote:

My understanding was that "sporting" ammo was not subject to that law. Many people pass through with everything up to 2 bore ammo.

LOL.
From the description my pal els gave me of this fine example of our country's best, this "mental midget" would have argued 2 bore is less than 500 therefore it is considered "sporting" ammo while the .577 is not!

Common sense does not come into play in an airport when some TSA folks are involved!

Come to think of it, I feel safer already!

she certainly would have.

I am in the process of writing letters to all my congressmen, the TSA and the NRA. I wish every one on the board would do the same. In an election year it may actually have some effect.