GTR,

If you search on these forums for accounts of hunts gone wrong, one of the common elements is that the hunt often starts with client having either the location or PH being switched at the last minute, often once they have arrived in country so to speak. Another common precurser to a bad hunt seems to be when the client has to share camp with strangers when he thought he had booked the exclusive use of it...

Therefore, in my mind, its no wonder that people get anxious when major changes to the hunt are instigated at the last minute no matter how well intended the changes were, as i believe the case was here...

Regards,

Pete

Pete,
I see your post mostly as preconcieved notions..What are you baseing your comments on if I may ask...

Most of our 7 day buffalo hunters love to be camped with a 21 day hunter, the get to see so much more than you would alone, the concessions are plenty big and you have someone to sit around the fire in the evening with and share the days events, you get to go hang baits if you wish and and in many cases get to see a Lion shot or whatever...the 21 day hunters loves the fact that your helping him with baits and everyone gets to see the great dance and spreading of palms when simba is killed.

If you hunt with us, switches are going to take place if we feel its the thing to do, thats our business and its for you good..we don't switch PHs but I see noting wrong with that as long as he is qualified..

Now I may be chastised for my thinking but its out front for all to see and then make their choice from there..Lots of companies out there vieing for your love....but we are going to do what is best for the client im our opinnion, as we feel we are in a better position to make that call.

It is simply a matter of trust.
When you are traveling halfway around the world, or just one state away, the only thing you can do is book hunts with people you trust.
People who have a good reputation from people you know, or people you have hunted with before.
If things go horrible bad, people you can trust will make it right.

Having just read this I am confused. It seems like the offer is a VERY good one. On the other hand the timing of this has a certain oder.As the season was, let's say, half through, why wasn't Sheephunter notified of the situation? It is not as if these conditions were just noticed last week..... Can anyone clear this up?

While I was hunting the OMAY for 21 days with HHK a few different hunters came to our camp usually for buff for a few days then left for other areas for plains game. I really enjoyed getting to meat the other hunters and PH's.
Since I was shooting 2 cow elephants we [MY PH videographer, trackers and game scout, and I] spent a couple of days, and nights in a nearby camp with another set of hunters, so I could shoot an elephant in that area for the local people to get the meat. I enjoyed meeting those people too. Believe me the different people in the different areas did not effect my or their hunting at all. It added to the fun and enjoyment of the trip.

Bottom line is, book with Pro's and trust their judgement.

Ray,

My reply to GTR was simply based on accounts of bad hunts posted here over the years. Its no way reflection on you or Pierre; just an observation of way folks get nervous over these things.

Thinking back over these postings I would say three common complaints seem to be:

1) My hunting area was switched last minute.

2) My named PH was switched last minute.

3) I had to unexpectedly share a camp.

I am not suggesting such changes always mean a bad hunt is in the offing, and I understand that sometimes such a change is in the best interests of the client..

Pierre and yourself might very well instigate such changes as a matter of course and with the best of intentions, but you should'nt be surprised if it causes the client to ask more questions, and generally get a little anxious....

Regards,

Pete

Actually PeteE is talking a (lot of sense) in what he says, at least IMHO /

We personally have had some clients ask before booking if there will be others in camp during their hunt, in some isolated cases this has ONLY occured when one party has in fact finished their hunt and the next party has just arrived on the non hunting arrival day ... so in effect both parties will therfore share the campfire for ONE NGHT and talk stories, and then the following morning the hunting group whom have finished their hunt will depart and the new group will start hunting ... this has occured twice BUT ONLY with PRIOR approval from both groups of hunters before booking or during discussions to book. Both parties have agreed and we have had no problems ...

THE KEY is to keep the client informed IN ADVANCE as best as things can and do change in hunting, even with the best will in the world

WE dont change areas as we are a PRIVATE owner operated ranch so that conflict does not occur

We have a dedicated family member Dene as the mAIN PH in Zambia, should we require a second PH for a 4x2 hunt, then we have a couple of tried and trusted other Zambia PH'S to call upon, we dont name the second back up PH at the time of booking //

It is very different in any event to equate a concession hunt with a private ranch hunt, BUT I just like to point out some of the nuiances of hunting which can be a test of character at times, especially when the best plans of man are made difficult by unforseen circumstances

Peter B

I find it somewhat hard to believe that sometime between 06/05 and last week the outfitter found it impossible to call the client via satelite phone and talk things over with him.

Clear and timely communication to the client is key to having a successful and lasting relationship.

Unfortunately, this did not seem to happen here-last minute notice would leave some to feel somewhat surprised, confused, questionning and disappointed.

Mike416- You centerpunched it.

I woulda gone! From what I know of Pierre Von Tonder, if he made a change, it was to provide you with a better hunt.

But I ain't gotta dog in this fight, Ya'll work it out.

Internet Forums are to discuss hunts afterwards, research hunts, to make friends to hunt with, and to decide which is better, the .458 Win, or the .458 Lott.

It is not a place to discuss Personal Business in my opinion.

WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THEM.

Just my thoughts.

SierraBravo=SierraHotel

Several folks who I admire and respect have gotten pissed at each other for making public or P.M. comments (I seem to have gotten lots of those P.M.'s from whomever for whatever reason) that if the "send" button had a 24 hour "are you damned sure" delay would have never been sent.

We tend to forget that the world is still pretty primitive concerning communications, even with sometimes reliable sat phones, e-mails, etc., and expect that everything will work 10,000 miles away as if it was face to face. Maybe in 10 more years it will when everyone has a Dick Tracy wrist t.v./telephone.. but it just ain't so yet. And human nature (at least mine) is to screw up things regardless of intent... be ye messenger, receipient, "interested" bystander of just a guy trying to do his job well.

The folks who post here are generally professionals in whatever field they choose to make a living. They are used to fixing things and being in control, be they clients, friends, P.H.'s, booking agents or assistant gods. They want (as I do) to get stuff straight and sometimes try to do so, damning the torpedoes.

The world ain't perfect. I just wish all this crap had been private because none of us will worry about it for ten seconds a couple of years from now, but the character of some of us has been questioned and that, even in cyberspace, hurts. We are, dispite our differences, somehow brothers who love Africa. While this fuss didn't need to happen (in MHO, anyway) we can remember and focus on what binds, not divides.

Of course, we can't just make it all go away by wishing, but we hopefully can quit our harsher opines and just proceed to worry about our own problems instead of those of others. I believe the principals would appreciate that... I hope I remember my own advice, btw.

Anyone want to come by my house tomorrow night for a single malt and good (but cheap) cigar?

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
Internet Forums are to discuss hunts afterwards, to make friends to hunt with, and to decide which is better, the .458 Win, or the .458 Lott.

It is not a place to discuss Personal Business in my opinion.

WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THEM.

Just my thoughts.

You are kidding?!

The internet is the fastest and best place to research hunts quickly. Which is what this gentleman here tried to do, out of sudden necessity.

I wish it had been around when I did my first safari.

NitroX:

And http://www.eHarmony.com is a great way way to find a mate.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
NitroX:

And http://www.eHarmony.com is a great way way to find a mate.

Hey, I know one of those girls.

I have a little trouble trying to filter out the bull on the Internet as there are a lot of "experts" and "wannabes" spouting "mis"informatin as fact.

The old saying is true..."it isn't what you don't know that can hurt you, it's what you think you know and don't that will bite you on the butt"

I would find it hard to believe that anyone could think Ray (the old-fashion curmedgeon that he is) is anything but a honest and serious man when it comes to his job and while his opinions on guns might be suspect can anyone doubt his integrity?

Can we say the same about the other poster? He may be the 2nd coming but where are his credentials?

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

Anyone want to come by my house tomorrow night for a single malt and good (but cheap) cigar?

JudgeG /


I have just cracked open a new bottle of Austin Nichols WILD TURKEY 86.8 US Proof ... will have a drink to you and all the good AR guests ..

Ray you are getting tooooooo damn old in the tooth to get the blood pressure shooting up and worrying about bush telegraphs, sit down and have a ( nice quite loooooonggggg dop ) with Judge & I and all the others with an African thirst

BTW JudgeG ... I like the marine core flag of yours a lot, you old southern gentleman rebel (-:

Regards, Peter

I have had changes of camps within the same area being changed w/in 3 wks of a trip, which is a little different as you are still in the same area. Any changes in the actual areas I feel pretty adamantly that:
1) the client should be contacted not by his agent but by the person (PH) who is on the ground making this recommendation;
2) that the client should have 24 hours to make a decision on that change so that he can educate himself to the replacement areas and make an informed decision; 3) that if the client decides against the recommendation and wants to keep the original itinerary in place, he should not make any derogatory comments about the outfitter but should state that he failed to listen to the recommendations;
3) that in this day and age to tell me a PH in the field can't communicate with the "outside world" is simply untrue and even if that were the case he should have someone from his company or the agent and follow #1 and #2; to have this found out only when the client makes contact for final comfirmation that things are in line is inexcusable and bad business and insult to the client.

I don't think this particular situation had anything to do with trusting Pierre, or Ray for that matter, I think it was a justified jolt of having SH's entire trip replanned without any input from him that had him a little panic-stricken, which is understandable.

I also think Ray's impulsive and frankly IMO pretty rude response was unwarranted and an incorrect interpretation of what the first post was about. It was a question on the new areas - not Pierre's judgment.

I'm sure this will piss off half a dozen or more posters, but I rarely post on the forum, mostly just browze, and I couldn't not respond to this thread.

Don,

Now that you have seen what can happen, how about a place for the buyers, sellers, and guipers (combo for PH's and guides), especially the guipers, a place to get the crap out of their pants. Should make for some very interesting as well as informitive reading.
Should also aid in the selection process for both buyer and seller.

Good as well as bad input, has been posted here. All parties concerned have supplied views, and it seems to have mellowed. Hopefully all parties will deal with this in a different way in the future.

Ganyana,

From what you've read, what's your take on the way this has evolved. Your a guiper BTW.

Roger QSL

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
Internet Forums are to discuss hunts afterwards, to make friends to hunt with, and to decide which is better, the .458 Win, or the .458 Lott.

It is not a place to discuss Personal Business in my opinion.

WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THEM.

Just my thoughts.

You are kidding?!

The internet is the fastest and best place to research hunts quickly. Which is what this gentleman here tried to do, out of sudden necessity.

I wish it had been around when I did my first safari.

NitroX...Don't get picky I do a most of my research on the interet. But I forgot to write it....Thanks for correcting..

The responses of the booking agent in this matter "IMHO" (emphasis added) have been deplorable. One just has to step back and read the responses on this and other threads to decide who one should and should not book a safari with. FUBAR.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
NitroX:

And http://www.eHarmony.com is a great way way to find a mate.

Tried them but they didn't understand what I meant by a 'short-term girlfriend'.

I am sure you do however.

Maybe I am missing something, but from my reading it seems to me that the switch in locations was last minute, based on the current conditions. The PH decided that a change was needed, let Ray know and Ray let the client know. The client was given fair options. Maybe not perfect, but the information seems to have been conveyed as it happened. I see no reason to think that the change was made a while ago, but not communicated.
That said, sheephunter had a tough call to make. I hope that I never have to make one like it.

Doug

Sheephunter,
You paint yourself in a wonderful light and that is fine, but the facts are you have consulted with 3 or 4 different operators and they have all plied you with wonderful information and advised you that you would not kill a Lion with Pierre, but that you should go with them to be successful, so you got confused, greedy and things got out of hand, YOU cancelled your hunt and we are in the process of a refund to you...We did not cancell you. You have been negociating with others for some time now.....We made you one hell of a deal, because you are a repeat client, did they match it? Apparantly not. All this came out of going on the internet, and the victim is you.

Now you are back on email and AR "giving me not an opertunity but an ultimatum to sit down like gentlemen and discuss the possiblity to once again takeing you hunting" but only on your terms and to the Kigosi, and again with that scolding tone that is your nature.

Your emails are such that I am not even sure what it is you want from us ...If you want to go hunt with Pierre on his original terms, then I will contact him on Sunday and try and reinstate you..

I have no axe to grind with you, I am only ticked that you went on the interntet with business and overstated your side of it, that should have remained between us..You churned the greedy people into a feeding frenzy to eat you alive!

Personally I think you should take the competition up on their offers and go to the Kigosi as that is what you want ...You are getting your money back and you can now go to the Kigosi..what could be better..Those guys ard licking there chops to get you, even the one that is in the other Masai concession wants you and his concession is the best he says. The world is your Oyster...

What has happened is that you have dug yourself a hole and can't get out of it. I am truly sorry it happened...It would have been so simple to just trust Pierre and live with the results. Don't you understand that is what every hunter does when he books a hunt...

You have to understand that since you aired this to the world, that Pierre is hesitant to hunt you ever again as you would be on the internet claiming foul if you did not shoot a black maned Lion, can't blame him for that!!...

Lion success is very low, Lions are the most sought after animal in Africa and the most expensive, and black maned Lions are as scarce as black diamonds...I know people that have spent multi bucks and have never seen a shootable Lion..

We never guarentee Lions, we don't guarentee Impala, we do guarentee that we will do our best and if that includes changing concessions then that is what we will do with you or anyone else and yes it may be at the last minute without your consent...Pierre is a better judge of that than any client, thats a plain simple and obvious fact

...Should this appeal to you then you must understand as of now that should you not get a Lion that I am forewarning you of the success rate of about 35 ot 50 percent Tanzania wide, if that. Unreasonable expectation have ruined more hunts than anything I know of...

Now I have laid it on the line as clear as possibel for your decision and what I see as options, a no more nonsence statment of fact..If you request me to do so, then I will talk to Pierre on Sunday unless someone else decides to book that time frame in the interim as its certainly up for grabs for whoever commits first..We don't want to give up that time frame and lose the money.

I have been told that you think we are bluffing???? I don't understand that thinking and I don't even know if thats true or not, but if so, it's something you should not be thinking because we don't bluff..We would rather sit in camp and play checkers than take you someplace we don't think would be successful, and that may be exactly what we will do....

Our decision was based on: the facts are the Kigosi has had 3 back to back Safaris on it, some say they killed 3 Lions, some say they killed none...FACT: EITHER WAY ITS A NO GO...The chance of 4 Lions of one concession is a joke, the chance of 2 would be close to the second coming and I also doubt that the Tanzania govt. would allow 4 lions off any concessiuon....I give you facts, not internet jabber.

You need to sit back, take a deep breath and make a decision once and for all as time is running out for us.

Either way I wish you the best of luck, I really do....

It is amazing how some on this thread have made judgments...The last minute change without contacting the client came from the fact that we felt the Kigosi would not produce base on the hunts that just finished, and how could Pierre know that until it had been hunted..and how could he contact anyone quicker...

I am sure we cannot please everyone and some don't care much for facts to make their decisions.not a lot I can do about that..Those that like us will book with us and return, those that disagree with our policys will never book with us in the first place..

Oh for the good old days when a PH hunted in only one concession, was responsible for that concession and was the only PH in that concession.

No permanent camps, no PH coming and going like out of work brothers in law. No game scouts, just the PH and the client and a tracker. The staff worked for the PH, not for the concession owner.

Much less commercial and much more user friendly.

Well, we are trying to work "things out"
I called Ray on the phone,he's all calm and smooth and easy to talk to.
For general consumption I think that maybe this thread still has some value to learn from.

I started it because I did not understand why I was switched to a drastically different area,an area that I was afraid to yield little if any in Oct.I dont claim to be knowledgable.All my "knowledge" comes from this forum and therefore very limited,but I have to start from there.
I still dont think its wrong to ask
Been talking to Ray,who disagrees,He's of the opinion that trust and go is the way to go.

When I come right down to it,he is probably correct - at the end,we usually go with what we trust,--but in between we like to sample and learn,we like to be involved and understand the rational and reason ,evn of the expert we trust.
At least that is what I do.

Gives me the feeling of security,and we all know there are lots of bridges for sale.

Bottom line - as many people here stated, its nice to be consulted rather than being confronted.
Work with your customer,dont take him blidfolded,even if he follows you anyway.

Or to make your live easier,pretend to involve the client :>, he appreciates it.

I always stated that I have a very positive experience and opinion of Pierre,that I desired to hunt with him,I simply did not understand the reasons for a drastic change.

Ray , will reinstate me in good order,thinks I am difficult but appreciative.
I think the same of him

So we come to a solution like adults.
I am sure Pierre will do his level best,no he never gives guarantees - nobody can or should.

We just like to have the odds in our favor.

I hope the hunt can be saved, I would love to hear an "everything turned out great once we got there" report in a couple or three weeks.

Regardless of the outcome, you should've NEVER, EVER aired this shit in public. That's what has got guys in an uproar. BTW, a pal had a buff hunt some years that turned out bad and Ray spent $5000 of his own money to make it right. If that isn't standing for your reputation/product, then I don't know what is. Nuff said.

I gotta jump in here and assure sheephunter that Ray and Pierr'e will do everything possible to fix whatever is wrong, and make it happen. I have hunted with Pierr'e in RSA and Zim last year, and in Tanzania this year and I don't ever plan on hunting with anyone else. Last year when things didn't go well in Zim (for reasons that were not his fault) Pierr'e fixed the problem. I put my trust in he and Ray to do right by a client no matter what. I think you guys should "bury the hatchett" and you should go on the hunt with the expectation that it will be much better than the original plan. That's the only reason Pierr'e would make a change. IMHO. Good luck if you go.

I've never been moved from one area to another, although it would be disconcerting. I have been moved from one camp to another. Based on two prior trips I felt splash was the camp I wanted, instead I was told no way tsum-tsum is clearly better. I gritted my teeth, went along, and discovered that the water hole in front of splash had dried up, similerly the hippo pool was a dry pan and tsum-tsum was a veritable paradise.
The people on the ground are the one's who are in a position to know what the local situation is. If you can't trust their judgement find other people whose judgement you can trust.

TerryR

I read an interview once of a highly decorated retired WWII battlefeild commander, don't remember who, don't think he was American. He was asked about how American troops performed. He responded that they were the very best, period.

But, he went on to say they were a PITA in camp, lacked discipline, could be counted on to find liquor or make it and fought amoungts each other too much.

When asked to reconcile his earlier comments with these observations of American troops in camp, he replied something to the effect of, "Thats easy, you don't just give American Soldiers orders. They don't take those too well. Instead you explained the situation to them and what needed to be done and why. Then they went off and did it. And they did it even if they lost touch with HQ's or their officers were killed. Even when the Sgts were killed they continued with their mission because they understood what their goal was and the role they played in the bigger picture".

Alot to be learned from those wise observations about Americans.

JPK

Trust and loyalty are rare and wonderful virtues. Most of us value and appreciate them.

Still, when our spouses have to stay out unexpectedly until 2 AM, all of us appreciate a phone call.

Moral: There is no substitute for COMMUNICATION!

I hope this all works out for all concerned and your safari is a great success.

Well, now we are all lovey dovey again! What happened? Could it be that it IS all about TRUST and Ray was right? Certainly I think we probably all agree that we would expect the outfitter/PH to switch areas if it was in our best interests. The missing piece in this case was communication. However, Sheephunter then, presumably after listening to others, decided that due to lack of water etc. etc. the move was not a good deal, even though, for various reasons, there were probably no huntable lions in the orioginal area (what did the other people wispering in his ear tell him?). Now, he has changed his mind, certainly his perogative, and decided to go with Pierre. It seems to me that more careful thought perhaps, and less keyboarding, might make it easier to change your mind gracefully. I have learned a lot from this thread!!! I hope we remember Ray's comment about hunting lions and the success rate.
Peter.

Sheephunter,

Don't let anyone on this thread convince you that you did wrong in asking an honost question!

I for one would have done anything in my power in such a situation to find out everything possible about the new area. Good or bad. Even if it meant asking a question here on AR or over on NE. And an honost, and smart, agent/PH/outfitter would have understood that IMO.

Just to put things in perspective, folks might want to read the thread in the African Hunts forum '21 day hunt with Piere van Tonder". It is relatively recent, around September 10.
Peter.

Well ,well,well It aint necessarily so ..
I had to make a decision,like we all do when all available information is in.Much of the information is contradicting - for various reasons,so one sifts and weighs.
That is the natural end result of information evaluation.

I personally dont see where I did wrong by asking a question.A question should not be interpreted as threatening - if the answer indeed id truthful.

Yes the post got a bit heated there for a while and not easy to stay on course when one's integrity gets attacked,but after a nights sleep one can get over it,understand the feelings of "the other side" and come together the best the situation calls for.

The point I am trying to make is that gathering information is vital and should not be considered a threat,though admittedly,one feels uncomfortable when questioned.
In the end,maybe the long end - truth prevails.

On the other side ,attacks and intimidation to change minds or perceptions ,it just makes people retreat and abstain from public open conversations.Nobody gains by driving people underground,they will find ways of communicating their thoughts,but you will never see it.We as a community loose.

Having said all that ,you are right on the money- as many -,the missing part was communication,
and that missing part demanded clarification,that simple

No Peter ,nobody whispered into my ear,nobody changed my mind,no regrets having asked "why".

Regrets are because of the perception that asking means distrusting,or the feeling that blind trust forever is appropriate,tactful and the thing to do.


I repeatedly shared my positive view of Pierre ,
questioning why, does not imply mistrust.thats simplistic and childish

I will continue to ask,and if need be,be "difficult",I will explore issues ,I will learn,reject and evaluate.
I shall be in charge of my own decisions,wrong or right,and I will value people that help me even or especially when they oppose my opinion.
I encourage everyone to do the same.

Life is tougher that way,I know,but its the way.
What do they say: I never promissed you a rose garden...

Sheephunter, I agree that you did the right thing. I would have done the same. Now go get that damn Lion!
peter.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunter:
Well ,well,well It aint necessarily so ..
I had to make a decision,like we all do when all available information is in.Much of the information is contradicting - for various reasons,so one sifts and weighs.
That is the natural end result of information evaluation.

I personally dont see where I did wrong by asking a question.A question should not be interpreted as threatening - if the answer indeed id truthful.

Yes the post got a bit heated there for a while and not easy to stay on course when one's integrity gets attacked,but after a nights sleep one can get over it,understand the feelings of "the other side" and come together the best the situation calls for.

The point I am trying to make is that gathering information is vital and should not be considered a threat,though admittedly,one feels uncomfortable when questioned.
In the end,maybe the long end - truth prevails.

On the other side ,attacks and intimidation to change minds or perceptions ,it just makes people retreat and abstain from public open conversations.Nobody gains by driving people underground,they will find ways of communicating their thoughts,but you will never see it.We as a community loose.

Having said all that ,you are right on the money- as many -,the missing part was communication,
and that missing part demanded clarification,that simple

No Peter ,nobody whispered into my ear,nobody changed my mind,no regrets having asked "why".

Regrets are because of the perception that asking means distrusting,or the feeling that blind trust forever is appropriate,tactful and the thing to do.


I repeatedly shared my positive view of Pierre ,
questioning why, does not imply mistrust.thats simplistic and childish

I will continue to ask,and if need be,be "difficult",I will explore issues ,I will learn,reject and evaluate.
I shall be in charge of my own decisions,wrong or right,and I will value people that help me even or especially when they oppose my opinion.
I encourage everyone to do the same.

Life is tougher that way,I know,but its the way.
What do they say: I never promissed you a rose garden...

Sheephunter, after reading your hunt report, I really feel for you. As it turned out, your concerns were more than valid. I also feel that those members who jumped all over you for asking simple, valid questions, owe you an apology. I also stand by my previous comment, that in this day and age of satellite communications, there is no valid reason why an outfitter or P.H. can not get back to a client for several months, especially when booking agents seem to be able to get in touch with P.H.s so readily.