I am packed,ready to go to hunt with Pierre in Tz again.Trip was planned to the Kirgosi/Mayowashi area a year ago,targets being monster buff, maned lion and pretty good chance for elephant.The prospect made my entire year.
I just sent a E Mail to Ray,trying to ascertain whether I will meet my old tracker friends from last year,he sent the inquiery to Pierre who of course is in the bush since June,hard to reach.He did reply though,mentioning that there was a change of plans.My hunt has been changed to the Masailand / Irikishbor area.
I went numb, all my plans and visions awash.
Pierre is a very diligent man and PH,I trust him for his honesty,but also have to realize that he has to be a businessman .
Apparently he shuffled the hunters,had problems wirh renting the concessions? who knows.Last communication I had with him was in 6/05.
Now the problem/question.I am torn between blindly going to the Masai and not going at all.
Trust Pierre versus wasting a lot of money on a trip to the unknown.
What little I know about the Masailand is that its dry,very dry,little vegitation,sparse game this time of year.I emphasize to know almost nothing,the hunt would certainly be quite different in character to the anticipated on in the Kirgosi/Mayowashi.

Targets of monster buff,maned lion,ele unchanged,availability? ,this time of the year?

I usually research an area,the best time for the area,listen to past references and results,the select.

As I said - I am now 1 week before departure,faced with a to me questionable area and gamebag,questionable time.

So lets try to rescue the issue,have trust in Pierre and see what comes?

What if any experiences do any of you have in the Irikishbor area, maybe even this time of the year.What does the area look like?
Is it plane dry sahara or a bit like the Selous?

What game can I expect,given my listed targets.
?

I dont want to become a dreaded client to an appreciated PH,but I also dont want to go just to hunt. I am a focused person and prefer to sort things my way,meaning select area,time,PH to maximize my chances for success.

thanks for sharing any knowledge about the area,type of hunt to be expected at this time,availability ogf monster buff,lion and good chance on ele?

Sheephunter:

I'm going to Masailand in 2006. I talked to quite a few people who advised not to go before the short rains [Nov/Dec] for the reasons you mentioned. I'm booked for late Nov. I would ask some tough questions before I left this early.

Sheephunter,

This is the sort of stuff that keeps you awake at nights before a safari. Your faith in Ray and Pierre is pretty well placed from what I can tell.

While I do not claim to be an expert, one thing I can tell you is that Masailand has no elephant hunting. Buffalo and cats should be no problem though, especially if Pierre knows where there is some water. Masailand is nothing like western tanz or selous, much more dry, open territory; it does have thickets, but for the most part, it is savannah plains. I have never heard of this particular concession.

I loved Masailand. Much fewer flys and mosquitos. But do not expect to be seeing huge heards of buffalo close up as in the Selous or western Tanz. You will most likely be hutning lone dugga boys or small groups leaving water holes in the AM. I will say that the plains game in Masailand is much more diverse and differnt than in the other two areas (L. Kudu, G Kudu, oryx, eland, grants and tommy gazelles).

Sheephunter,

Checked the web. Irikishbor is an open area. Currently Intercon is leasing hunts there.

Open areas can have problems with locals hunting on Tanzania resident licenses.

It borders Lolkisale. Adam Clements may be able to offer some insights.

Tanzania Bundu has been taking good buff, all season long from both the Lobo and Lolkisale camps, which also border Lolkisale. I can tell you there are plenty of lions on their concessions as well, saw tracks and scat every day I was there (August 6-16). I was on a ten day hunt; wish I could have afforded 21 days.

Best of luck, whatever your decision is. Hugh

Is your money but if Ray tells you it's ok, I will go with my eyes closed. You never know what will happends and I'm a true beliver that things happens because of something...
I will just grab my rifle and let me go with the flow, but that's my style.

Ray and Pierre have been in these business long enough so they know what they do, and Pierre knows what your main targets are so just trust him...

A safari is an adventure and these things are part of it

But as I said, it's your safari.

Good luck
L

Sheephunter,
To be honest, I am not too happy with your post ironing out all our business to the public before a hunt..It would be my hope that we could deal among ourselves on all such issues.

That said, you have put me on the spot as this deal was negociated between you and Pierre in camp last year after a very successful hunt that I am not sure you really appreciated the quality of it...All I did was handle the financing...So I can't say much other than what I perceive...I am trying to get in touch with Pierre.

I know that Pierre is firstly going to try and get you a Lion, and he has a very high success rate on Lions in that concession..I can send you references of hunts there, but its a bit late for that...I know he has shot some awesome Buffalo in that concession with hunters that can walk many miles...Leopards are in abundance, and elephants wonder through there I am told, but he may very well get your LIon, Leopard and then fly you someplace else...I do know that he deals with Bundu safaris a good deal...

As to the Kigosi, I have not clue why he is not, or if he is not hunting there with you, nor do you and your assumption is based on what?

At any rate I am still trying to pin him down someplace and will get back to you by email not on the internet...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Massailand for this time.
Ray,I have tried to present the facts in a neutral factual style.I also -I believe - included that I believe Pierre to be an honest PH that I believe tries his best.
Nevertheless- as I indicated - I was slated for a hunt that I thought would be fantastic and a week before departure learn that a change to a quite different location therefore hunt is planned.
I indicated that I claim to know close to nothing about Massailand or the specific area,trying to learn anything here that could possibly shed some insight as to the feasibility.
As I explained,one spends a bit of currency on these hunts and therefore likes to assure - as much as possible - that the odds are in one's favors.I would therefore not be interested in a "fill-in" hunt.
As you and I said,neither one of us apparently knows of Pierre's thinking or reasoning,we speculate,we wish to learn from him but cannot- at this time.In the meantime the clock is ticking.I canot afford to sit on my hands.
This forum is about the best neutral way to gather some info.

As indicated ,I am also sensitive to the fact that I do not want Pierre to believe I am trouble,he is a valued friend and appreciated - and I have a hard time hunting with him if he concludes me to be just a "client".

I take strong exceptions to your characterization of me not being appreciative of my last years hunt with Pierre.
I believe the open and public record would support the contrary.

So in conclusion,lets realize that I am not "ironing problems out" here "in public" but attempting to gather information in a hurry as time is very limited.
I booked thru you because of your honest reputation,I booked with Pierre because of his reputation and my positive experience with him.

I dont know what happened,I am trying to find reasons to possibly accomodate the change against my very limited knowledge.

Sheephunter,
Pierre just called to report on a huge croc that they killed and I told him about your post and emails...

He informed me that a PH whom I will not name, had 3 back to back 21 day Safaris in the Kigosi, no lions in there this year and they saw no elephants..I know this PH and he is a very good hunter...thus your transfer...

Pierre feels certain that a Lion is to be had and said that was supposed to be your main goal, and that these animals you want are the most difficult to come by and this was not a zoo where you could just go pick them out.

Furthermore, because you are a return client Pierre gave you a 21 day license on a 16 day hunt which he knows I don't like for him to do, as it costs us money, doesn't makes us money.

We discussed your delima and we agreed that if your not satisfied with the situation as it is then we will gladly refund you your money,

I assure that is about as good a proposition as you will ever get from any Safari Company or Booking Agent....

You have to let us know by Monday morning what you final decision is as we will not be getting your gun permits or hunting license..

So, I guess the ball is in your court.

Outright thanks to all helpful comments,here per private Message and E mail.
As anyone would surmise,this late switch from the Moywasi/Kirgosi to the Masailand caused me great consternation. All comments I received pointed out the tough water situation in the Masai this time of the year.
Oct might very well be ideal or good for the Kirgosi but appears difficult for the Masai,where one is dependant on buff straying out of the park.
I am not speaking as an expert but reflecting on advise given by many.


A huge disappointment in many aspects - for me.
My trust in people and my hopes for a nice time and hunt.

Unless something is still worked out by Ray,hunt gone.

Thanks to the Internet and this forum in being educational

Ray,I am torn between not answering and trying to set your record straight.
then I believe this forum is not enjoying or meant to listen to abusive tirades and fights.

Sorry to hear you respond this way.As you know I tried to gather all information here,all.
You basically come back to trust a PH when he changes to a quite different setup.
I dont even want to disagree with you.I only tried to gather information.
I interprete your responses as denying me that option.Characterizing me as mean,greedy,undesirable ,keep going.I didnt tip?
Is that a fact?keep going...
Is that always your way of solving issues?

Time will heal all wounds.

Sheephunter gets his money back because he wasn't happy (or secure) with the change.

Ray and Pierr'e are solvent enough to return deposits, etc. so....

Let's move on.

I am going to my banker tomorrow, though. After my recent debacle, I'd like to do a little 1x1... There are advantages in not having a wife ... but I think he (the banker) is going to tell me to go back home instead of going to get another Masai spear... Anyone want to lend me some money? I'm about through paying for the last fubar, btw.

Ray pm me. Rumour has it you may have a discounted lion hunt for sale
Mike
ps
You still should have my phone number on file.

Again,I feel I have to at least comment.
Because I questioned the hunt location change at this time,I turned from a "friend" into whatever Ray states.
I will gladly share all past E mails with anyone interested and let them judge,but maybe they can read enough already.
For the record,YES,I asked questions in a polite way.

Ditmar,
I have deleted most of my emails, your money is to be returned..your hunt is cancelled...You listened to the wrong folks with an agenda...

sheephunter,

I have read the posts carefully and although I understand your disappointment, I think you are being unreasonable. They tell you the hunting has been lousy in your preferred area, offer you an alternative or your money back.
What else can they do?

Were it me, I would take you to the area you insist on going to (against my advice) and when the hunt turns to crap I would simply tell you "I told you so".

Best of luck,

sheephunter //

I have no axe to grind in this debate, but like most AR guests we have an interest in client and outfitter and booking consultant satisfaction.

I dont know either Ray yourself or Pierre face to face personally BUT from my local knowledge and past dealings I comment as follws

1) I have dealt electronically with Ray and he has been more than honest from my experience, was always understanding and very helpful as well. He personally sent me a deposit once without knowing me from a bar of soap except via email and when the proposed hunt did not eventuate we retured the deposit and all was just 100% fine.

Ray is straighter than the day is long IMHO

2) I dont know Pierre at all, only viewed those wonderful Saeed videos, but from what I hear from those in the know how he looks top notch in all respects

From reading this thread I am of the opinion that the full refund option and cancellation might be the best route to follow, although I dont know the A to Z of the situation ..

I am also going to throw in a personal (short comment) which is just my gut feeling perception, so I hope Ray or Pierre or any other esteemed guests dont take it to be in any way negative ..

Has Pierre possibly (at least temporarily) become the (victum of his popularity) in that has he maybe due to unforseen circumstances beyond his control possibly (over committed himself) and landed in a tight spot with logistics personel and allocation of all the booked hunts, or am I incorrect in that view, as I often am !

I know that even with the best will in the world, especially in Africa, things dont always go 100% to plan, so we all need to be cognisant of that aspect and consider bending in the wind at times.

Peter

Since when has it been unreasonable to politely ask for more information publicly from third-party independent observers when your booked hunt location switched on the client ONE WEEK before the safari.

quote:

I am packed,ready to go .....

quote:

As I said - I am now 1 week before departure,faced with a to me questionable area and gamebag,questionable time.

Without apparent ANY discussion between the client and outfitter?

quote:

I just sent a E Mail to Ray,trying to ascertain whether I will meet my old tracker friends from last year,he sent the inquiery to Pierre who of course is in the bush since June,hard to reach.He did reply though,mentioning that there was a change of plans.My hunt has been changed to the Masailand / Irikishbor area.
I went numb, all my plans and visions awash.

quote:

Last communication I had with him was in 6/05.

I can understand the last quotation below and hope a new booking makes up for the disappointment.

quote:

The prospect made my entire year.

PS I am not being critical of anyone involved in the actual safari, except perhaps some posts in reply here. Maybe everyone is trying to do their best.

I thought I would just lend some support as I can't see the questions asked in so short of time unreasonable. No need for the "gang" to gang up on the poor guy.

From this thread, I am with Sheephunter and NitroX. If my safari location had been changed, I would ask a lot of questions. Before moving a safari, I would hope a conference was to be had with the buyer.

A refund is an appropriate offer and I am glad things have ended somewhat okay.

I probably would have gone on the safari in any case just because I am so impatient!!

Kyle

After reading these various posts, it seems there never was an "emergency" as originally stated. I do not have the experience that PH's and others have, but have found them to be an honest bunch as a rule. The normal "week before" angst happens, but you just push through and go. Oh well. I think Ray and Pierre went "over the top" to resolve this this deal with the refunds and other considerations.

I certainly agree with some of Ray's warnings.
I dont agree 100% as I or we simply dont know the facts and have to rely on sifting thru what we gather.
What I am referring to is Ray's statement that I was supplied with competitors ( false) info.
There is no way at this moment that I know what is right or wrong.

But I think that a fair response in a public forum would limit the falsehoods and help find the facts.

This all re my initial question re advisability of the Irikishbor at this time,given my desired targets as stated when signing up.

I did get some info that shed light,and in the interest of helping others in similar situations,
I shall copy some paragraphs,as it simply shows the picture in a different light - maybe.

I emphasize that I like Pierre as well as Ray,
despite Ray's runts and what I consider derogatory accusations.

The reason being their upright stance.

Pierre is known to me and his diligence and attention to detail in camp,his function as a PH are beyond my expectations.

Having said that,as I told Ray , I cannot live with BLIND TRUST in anyone,heck I question my own decisions constantly.


So here some info for scrutiny that I had to consider:


I have talked about hunting Ikwishibor. I know an operator who had hunted it in the past. Very good plainsgame, not much water. This is an area that needs to be hunted in early July if you want to see Buffalo.

I think I remember him saying that there were very good Lion there.

Who said you were going to hunt Kigosi or Moyowasi? These are held by different companies. TGT holds the Moyowasi blocks, and would not sell quota to an independent operator. Kigosi blocks are held by Licky Abdallah. He will sell his quota to another operator.

If you were told you would hunt Kigosi, and only now you are being told otherwise. There is .....


In Kigosi, the beginning of the season was very difficult for Lion, true. But, an Italian ph who buys quota from Licky has just had three consecutive successful Lion hunts.

Licky just told me that he has never done business with Pierre. Never talked to the man. Since Licky holds the only two operating blocks of Kigosi, I would be a bit suspicious about their promise to hunt Kigosi.

There is no possible way to hunt Moyowasi. TGT would never allow an independent operator to come into their area and hunt.

Now, I have to wonder where he was planning on hunting you all along? He never asked Licky to hunt Kigosi ... TGT in Moyowasi is not an option ... Maybe I have missed something????

Ikwishibor now. The area is owned by Mrs. Naivasha. Traditional African Safaris, or more commonly known as Intercon. She took over the company after her husband passed away. She sells quota to independant operators.

Ikwishibor can be terrible in September. After the rains come you may be able to find some Buffalo, some good Buffalo too. That area is a good place for Big Buffalo and good Lion at the right time! But it is water dependant. You can gamble on the rains coming early. But still, it may take a few days for the Buffalo to come back. Lions? I really do not know ...

It is not possible to hunt Elephant in Ikwishibor either. None on quota.


.....................

Are these statements true? I dont know
I cannot ask Licky and dont know him

But if we all stay calm.rather than accusing each other of questionable heritage - maybe thru public participation we can all learn and evaluate.

I am confused by this thread. In all cases of hunts gone bad, that have been reported here, the first queston asked has been "what did you do about about it at the time". In other words it is poor conduct to do nothing, but then come back and complain. Here is Sheephunter, who I do not know from Adam, who seemed to be trying to understand the impact of the change in venue, to him and his hunt. His posts seem to have been honest attempts to scope out this situation, and hs is told, on this forum "it is not a zoo where you just pick out your animals" or words to that effect. I would find that insulting. Ray may be a wonderful, ethical guy, and I have no reason to doubt that, however, his choice of words on this forum sometimes... well they are not words that I would choose. To say that Pierre is a victim of his own success is IMHO not a valid excuse either. Having said that, if in fact, as Ray has also alluded to, Sheephunter is getting information from sources that "have an axe to grind", then I would hope that Sheephunter is smart enough to understand that and 'consider the source". This little thread has certainly opened my eyes!
Peter.

Now if good ol' Russell E. Taylor was involved in this mess, we good sell tickets to watch it all get sorted.

One of the biggest and most committed PH sins is poor communication.

It's endemic in the industry. Spending weeks in the bush is not conducive to regular and detailed discussion.

Still, I don't care how busy a PH is, if he is going to change my hunting area, and as a result reduce the number and kind of game animals that I can hunt, I would damned well want to know about it long before a week from departure.

I'm sure that intentions were good in this case. And the offer of a full refund is absolutely called for here.

But what about a year's worth of planning and preparation, arranging to be away from home and work, etc.? Talk about disappointment!

sheephunter, you've been given very good reason to do as you've done, to seek answers to some tough questions you've been forced to face through no fault of your own, on virtually NO notice.

I admire your tact and restraint. If I were in your shoes, I'm not sure I'd show half as much of either of those qualities as you have.

I think one of the main problems in these types of situations is the different outlooks of the people involved.

Sheephunter refers to Pierre and Ray as 'friends'. They refer to him as 'client'. Now 'ex-client' .

People, people. PH are in business to make you happy. Just like car salesmen, real estate salesmen and hookers, you pay them to perform a service and to be your friend. They accept your money, perform their service and pretend to be your friends, because that is their JOB.

On another thread a gentlemen commented about tipping his PH a $100/day and making a friend for life. Good Grief, get a clue.

Just like your business sometimes you make friends but most of the time you are friendly. Big Difference.

Your decisions cannot be made on the assumption that the PH is a 'Good Friend' so will do what is best for you. Like any other business he will do what is best for him. Either in the long run or in the short run. If it is also best for you than you have a deal. If it is not than you should walk, just like you would on buying a car or buying a house. Letting your emotions get the best of you is a sales tactic that is is old as mankind.

This comment is not specific to this thread but is something I have wanted to point out for a long time. Every time I hear the phrase, 'My PH' or 'My friend, the PH so and so' I want to shake the person and tell them to wake up.

Yes it happens that a client and a PH become good friends and lifelong spit exchangers. But it doesn't happen often and certainly not every time. When your money runs out or you are no longer a source of additional income so do most of these 'lifelong friendships'.

Okay, I'm done.

quote:

On another thread a gentlemen commented about tipping his PH a $100/day and making a friend for life. When your money runs out or you are no longer a source of additional income so do most of these 'lifelong friendships'.

Well

Don,

This is the exact reason a forum for Booking Agents, Guide Services, Guides, and PH"s be installed.

Common ground for info pertaining to hunts.

Maybe, public airing of situations such as this, will lesson the chance of it happening in the future.

Having read Ray over the years, he apparently is a very straight shooter and the returning of monies is the right thing to have occured. However, the client should have been made aware of the schedule change much sooner. I'm sure the change was done for the client's benefit, but not at such short notice.

If I were to have paid for new BMW, and then a week before delivery, they contacted me and said I would be getting a Mercedes, I would be asking questions, a lot of questions.

As to not airing it on a public forum such as this, nonsense. Nothing wrong, then nothing to hide. Might open up eyes as to who you book your hunts with.

Would be interesting to see the reason the hunt was to be re-located. I'm sure it was for a very good reason. I would personally still like to read about it.

Roger QSL

Gentlemen,

I fail to see what all the fuss is being made of.

A client booked to hunt ceratin animals, his PH found that these animals are not available in the area originally booked, he moves the hunt to a more suitable area, the client does not like this, the PH returns his money.

Another scenario could have developed like this:

The hunt goes on as originally planned, the client does not get the animals he wanted, he goes home with a big disappointment.

It looks like this hunt was doomed right from the start.

The client wants monster buffalo and big mained lion. A big tusker would do nicely too.

The likelyhood of a hunter shooting a monster buffalo, big mained lion and a big tusker all on one safari is only a dream.

We have hunted with Pierre twice, and on each occasion, he did his utmost to make sure we got what we came fore. And we were never disappointed.

We wanted to shoot a big lion and an elephant on both hunts. But, they were just not there. Were we disappointed in not getting a lion and an elephant on each hunt?

Of course we were.

Did thsi distract from the enjoyment of the hunt?

Not one bit!

I would like to add here that on every single hunt we have been on. We booked to hunt with a certain PH, regardless of where he was hunting.

We hunted with Roy and Alan Vincent in Matetsi, then Westwood several times, then Chete several times, then Matetsi again several times. The question of the area was NOT important. But, teh people we hunted with was.

We hunted with Pierre on two seperate Selous blocks - I do not even remember what they are called, because it really makes no difference to me.

We go to hunt to enjoy ourselves. And of this there never was any shoretage.

I know I said that I would not post again and I deleted my earlier posts so as not to get everything blown out of porportion...but, you have already spewed too many one sided stories out there. There are two side to every story.

Sheephunter, I replied to several of your posts explaining to you why he moved you, because he felt that he could get you a nice Lion and has had 100% success on Lions two year running there....He said those last 3 Safaris did not get Lions..your satisfaction was his only goal..the Mayowasi was never a question as TGT took it over so I don't know how that even came up, other than some consider the Mayowasi part of the Kigosi I have been told recently....

The Kigosi with Mario was an option....So if in fact they shot 3 Lions and lied to Pierre but I don't think Mario would do that, as you have apparantly been told, then I personally assure you that they shot every Lion on the Kigosi.. Three male Lions in three hunts on the same concession..Does that not raise suspecion with anyone that has hunted Lions?...Believe me, either way, no lions or 3 Lions it would not be a place to go, think about it, exercise common since...

Changing the hunt area is Pierres business, its what he does, his goal is your success and he has a proven track record...What if he had taken you there and you never saw a Lion or elephant..I assue you no elephant there, and I am sure that would have happened under the above circumstances..He made that decision late in the game for your well being and you turned on him in his opinnion. If you trust an operator enough to hire him then trust him, or book with someone else, that applies to everyone...

Piere is thrughly upset with you as he feels you do not trust his judgment and by going on AR and taking the ridiculas position that you have that you dissolved friendships and any future business....

My opinnion changed when you attacked me with such statement as you could understand why I wanted "to keep my nose clean" when I told you that you had negociated the hunt last year in camp with Pierre and I did not know what was or was not said at those negociations and that I would have to talk to Pierre before I could do anything for you and that in this case all I did was handle the money you sent me.....You made some other remarks that did not set well but when you went on the internet with your BS, all negociations ended and you are being refunded...

BTW, do you know Lickey?? I know him very well. You said in your first sentence that you had not been talking to competition, but now you are quoting my competition and denying talking to someone I will not name but who has posted here and is in the Safari business, so your being less than honest...Cats do not miagrate like other animals..They stay and feed on Masai cattle and plainsgame...I told you that Buff are hard to come by there but we have shot some real big ones there..He was going to charter you to the Selous after the lion, but I did not know that at the time.

But, don't you think that inasmuch as we agreed to refund your money, which we are not required to do at this late date, that you could keep this business among ourselves, as we are going the extra mile to satisfy you..

I assure you we could have worked it out much better if you had showed some faith in Pierre as he was going to get your Lion and then move you again to another concession in the Selous that had a not great but a shootable elephant bull in it, but unfortunatly you upset the apple cart...You did not allow me time to talk with Pierre and I was not even sure I could contact him...I did contact him because a hunter got sick and had to be flown to Arusha for some medication...In the meantime you came on AR with a mild mannered approach that was not the way you came on to me...At the time you were unreasonable and would not listen or try to understand why we made that last minute change, you just could not accept it, you wanted Me to change everything at the last minute and "use my influence" to get you in the Kigosi..Simply put I do not have that kind of influence and don't know anyone that does at that short notice, besides thats not my job. But if I did, when you got home from the Kigosi you would have been twice as upset.. Then you stirred up the vultures and Hyenas and those SOBs lied to you to get your business and now they have you, and you trusted and took the advise of people that you don't even know.

I do, however, wish you the best.

Peter,
That quote was Pierres words to me, not my words to Sheephunter..It came about because sheephunter wanted a Lion and elephant on the same concession, that would not have happened in the Masai or the Kigosi according to Pierre..but he had that covered also but I did not know it...communications from the bush are difficult at best..We have radio contact with Dar es Salaam, and a satitlit phone that is turned on between 9 and 10 each night, sometime!! and sometimes it just does not work and it hard a hell to call that number and it took me about 5 days to get in touch..and all the wheels were in place for his hunt...

I hope that helps clearify the situation.

As to Pierre being a "victim of his own success" that came from another poster that does not even know Pierre and its incorrect.

Ray,
good to read your comments. I agree with many that bringing up issues of this sort into the public forum is not a sign of disrepect, mistrust or desire to hurt someone.
Its sole purpose is and was to ascertain feasability.
Had I been able to talk to Pierre it might have been shorter,but as you told me,that was not to be.You are his trusted agent and you told me before to go thru you.So I did.
Gathering or asking for independant information does not constitute mistrust - please.

Yes the course taken is in my estimation quite unfortunate,but in my personal opinion basically not because I asked questions but because of your personal interpretation.
You apparently cannot or could not tolerate me asking questions.
Please understand that all I tried to do was to get pre-hunt information.
Yes ,the PH is appreciated when he changes location and maybe times to more and better.
His judgement is appreciated.But dont you think someone should involve the "client" and maybe get his consent,explain the reasons etc ?Is the client part of the deal or a mere rider to be taken?

Again, I am NOT trying to place blame but to explore.Contradictory statements happen and need to be sorted out.That really does not happen by defensive posture or by defaming folks.

Your early offer to re-imburse me and cancel the contract is fine and appreciated.But as you saw not the total answer.My real loss goes beyond monetary,and I tried to work things out with you to solve all problems,yours and mine.
That reads "and mine" and means I gather satisfactory answers to where I am going.

Also -please understand -as you probably know: when I ask you or anyone a question,it is a question begging for a hopeful honest answer,IT IS NOT A REQUEST, its a question

I do not think to have been or be unreasonable
,difficult - may be ,.meaning I tend to be persistent.


Back to some of the stuff you mentioned, as I said,despite all,I do not despise or mean ill to you or Pierre.I am deeply distraught of loosing him.

If indeed he finds me honest and sees the dilemma,realizes some accident happened,

I am quite willing to listen and be part of it
- assuming it comes from an honest posture.
Nobody here- I assure you and him - means ill .
"YOur competition" "spewing out misinformation" is not as mighty as you think.
I as a consumer listen and evaluate, thats all.
I believe in open forum most misstaements will be caught and corrected.

Bottom line -I offer you again my peace palm leaf ,I dont gain anything otherwise,neither do you or Pierre.

Thank you

Mickey1,
I sure disagree with your approach to money..I value the friendship of most the folks that I do business with, many of which do not book with me anymore for various reasons, but still stay in touch....

I have had business dealing with you but I doubt that I will buy another double rifle from you, hope we can still be friends telling you that... Pierre and I consider our "clients" friends, and that play on words has no meaning...

Saeed, Judge G, Dale Bundy, Jim Sherman, Allen Johnson, Lee Davenport, that post regularly and have booked with Pierre. they all post on AR will alway be our freinds, We meet in Dallas every year with a bunch of other AR friends and have a bash, many of those folks hunt with other PHs, many have never hunted with us, none of that makes any difference, they are considered friends...

Believe it or not I have friends that are bankers and Insurance salemen, even lawyers that I no longer use their services and they are friends...

I grant you that some clients never become close or life friends, but many do. I hope I never reach the point to where I think on the terms you describe, because if I do I will be judged for that in a higher court..

Also I don't think you really believe that.

quote:

Another scenario could have developed like this:

The hunt goes on as originally planned, the client does not get the animals he wanted, he goes home with a big disappointment.

It looks like this hunt was doomed right from the start.

The client wants monster buffalo and big mained lion. A big tusker would do nicely too.

The likelyhood of a hunter shooting a monster buffalo, big mained lion and a big tusker all on one safari is only a dream.

Saeed,
I am sure you are correct from what I understand your interpretation is.

Here we have a person that's been reading glossy magazines and comes to shoot prime top world class trophys all in 1-3 sq miles,preferably within 1 week and not get his hands dirty
Assume for a moment that to be so,
It is my opinion that any PH or booking agent should not take that client.They are the xperts that are trusted.They can either simply hang up or educate the "client".
But the moment a hunt is accepted.there should be a clear understanding of what is offered and what is expected.Dont you think so?

These expecations of course differ,with the hunter and his past experience f.i.
some want a good time,others seek maybe trophies of a particular kind, whatever,it is the required task - to be honest and understand each other.

Without understanding there can be no satisfactory hunt for either side.

I also beleive that you understand that when I "ask for" monster buff, MGM lion and of course big 100lbs tusker, that I do not expect to find same.But -as we say- its our goal - and we intend to try hard.That means to give this some meaning-
that the PH knows what is desired,he will try his best,and he offers a hunt were above is realistic, not "only 2% possible"
If the client is unrealistic - he should be educated - dont you think.
I assure you none of the above pertains to this case

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Mickey1,
I sure disagree with your approach to money..I value the friendship of most the folks that I do business with, many of which do not book with me anymore for various reasons, but still stay in touch....

I have had business dealing with you but I doubt that I will buy another double rifle from you, hope we can still be friends telling you that... Pierre and I consider our "clients" friends, and that play on words has no meaning...

Saeed, Judge G, Dale Bundy, Jim Sherman, Allen Johnson, Lee Davenport, that post regularly and have booked with Pierre. they all post on AR will alway be our freinds, We meet in Dallas every year with a bunch of other AR friends and have a bash, many of those folks hunt with other PHs, many have never hunted with us, none of that makes any difference, they are considered friends...

Believe it or not I have friends that are bankers and Insurance salemen, even lawyers that I no longer use their services and they are friends...

I grant you that some clients never become close or life friends, but many do. I hope I never reach the point to where I think on the terms you describe, because if I do I will be judged for that in a higher court..

Also I don't think you really believe that.

Ray

I would hope we remain friends. I also would hope that you would buy another rifle from me if it was one you wanted and sell me one if I wanted one you had for sale. As you know, at that point friendship is not as important as equal value for a deal to get done.

I did not mean to point any fingers at you or Pierre. I only intended to point out that because you have had a good 5 day, 10 day or 21 day safari you have not necessarily made a new best friend. Many members of this forum and hunters in general come back believing that.

It is all business and anyone who would spend 20-30k on a hunt and not look at it as a business decision probably doesn't have the money to go anyway.

I would guess I know as many current and former PH's as almost anybody on this forum. I've only hunted as a client twice but have spent the better part of 5 years of my life in eastern and Southern Africa, half of that hunting. It was a glorious place 25 years ago and that is probably why I won't go back except to visit friends.

All that aside I know many PH's that fit into the 'you can trust them with your life but not with your money' box. Most are a lot of fun, gregarious and outgoing, brave and forthrite. But business is still business and should be treated that way.

I talk to Maro about once a month when he is hunting and spend a few days with him in April in Italy most years when he goes home to visit his parents. If any one wants I will ask him about the Lions next time he calls but I would be of the opinion that Pierre did what he thought best for a repeat client and is pissed off and disappointed that it didn't work out. I would be anyway.

sheephunter ... I can kind of see your point but I don't follow your reasoning. At one point you say you had a great hunt and consider Pierre not just a PH who took you hunting but a real friend but in the next breath you don't trust him to do the right thing by you.

It seems to me, and I suspect to most others, that Pierre had to make a decision, based on the facts as he knew them, to make a change in areas to give you the best chance for taking the animals you wanted. You either trust his judgement or you don't and if you don't you really shouldn't be hunting dangerous game with him --- can't have it both ways.

And, would you rather have him show some judgement and make a decision or make no decision and simply fulfill the contract and take you on long, futile walks through the concession originally planned but now due to circumstances beyond his control had very little chance of producing the animals you wanted?

It might have been easier on you if Pierre had consulted with you at the time but I suspect that isn't always possible but if he would have, what could you have based your decision on other than Pierre's local knowledge and judgement?

What would you have done if he called you and said .... the area we had planned to hunt isn't producing and I plan to move you to a better area that gives us a better chance of sucess? Would you have insisted on the original area, or would you have said O.K. or would you have cancelled the hunt?

And remember, your sucess is also his sucess isn't it? I think that while Pierre will probably lose some money, you've lost more, much more than that.

DB Bill,
I agree fully with your observation. If you trust the guy in the first place, then you need to trust what he advising you. Sometimes last minute changes are the best, sometimes not, but you are hiring qualified people to tell you what they think is best. Listen to them.

Bill,
you are making some good points.What would you have done if .., , really
Lets state up front,that this post is not about pointing fingers.I learned about what I considered,from my exposure here,to be quite a drastic change in location.Such a location change would,again to me understanding , bring a change in optimal timing, and probably game.

Your question is maybe alike the following example: you planned long time and booked an expensive trip to China,wanted to see what is has to offer.! week before departure you are told by the tour operator,Oh I forgot to tell you,the trip has been re arranged ,lets say to Turkey.Now what would you do,you trust and love the tour operator ?

Look at it also please :
I did NOT start this topic to get out or cancel the hunt with Pierre,I emphasized to the contrary.
I was trying to obtain information to help me make a decision whether "I wanted to go to Turkey" so to speak.

Ray suggested what I like to characterize a take it leave it attitude.As is right. He can do as he pleases.
I felt an ever increasing hostility that I could not bend, I was repeatedly and again asked to blindly trust.As I also repeatedly said,I am not spun of tht yarn,some are.

Some flip the coin around to see wheher its good,some bite into it ...

Lastly,real things are rarely black and white,meaning no game versus abundance from what I know to be predictable.Yes difficult decision for me and Pierre.

Lets say the following: Had Pierre written to me and explained the rational, or talked to me-we very well would not have this post.

Again , I did inquire and was notified that the Kigosi IS NOT EMPTY ,which contradicts a premise...

I trust and trusted Pierre,does that mean not to ask others for their experince and maybe even ask Pierre or his agent,"how come I receive divergent facts elswhere" ?


Lastly, as the post notes are turning maybe somewhat toward possible resolution.
Yes Pierre would or did loose by a cancellation
Did I gain by that?

My loss is far deeper than monetary - I am a big time looser here.

Seeing this very fact and Ray's "He would have notes" I again tried to open the door to Ray
but have not heard from him.

I've hunted with Pierr'e twice.

The only reason he would move a client would be to improve the chance of getting the trophy the client wants.

There are several of us that could relate stories about how he pushed us just a little more when we were ready to call it quits and the result invariably was that we were successful.

He is more concerned about the success of the hunt than most of his clients (or friends).

What drives him to that extent is an admirable mystery.

I don't think sheephunter has been in anyway unreasonable questioning the likely impact of a change of location so late in the day.

Some folks have definite preferences in how they hunt or over what terrain not just in the trophies they are after...I would prefer to hunt in thick bush and would not be interested in hunting wide open areas regardless of the prospect of success ..A late change from the former to the later, no matter how well intentioned the switch was, would ruin it for me...

I don't know Pierre from Adam, and while he might very well be Gods choice of PH, a simple phone call or email to Sheephunter proposing the change and outline the reasons why might well have prevented all this...

Having said that I understand that comms from the bush is often difficult and Pierre may have only just decided on the need for a change shortly before he spoke to Ray. From what I have read of Pierre I am positive the change was intended for the best reasons, but he should not be surprised that such change raises a few questions from the Client...

Regards,

Pete

Question,

Is it common for the change to happen and the PH not talk to the client?


GTR