quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
It will probably beat us out for the ' Hunt Of The Year" at the Ootdoor Channel Golden Moose Awards. Last year DRIVEN TV got the hunt of the year after cutie arrowed a sleepy lion surrounded by a possee
Wyatt Earp would have been proud to round up.

Could you post HER picture?....

Todd

It does indeed sound like we mostly agree.

The best non commercial videos I've seen by a country mile are Saeed's ones. Not only do the mark a successful hunt (as opposed to the kill) with dignity, they also take pleasure in the small things such as trees, flowers, birds & insects that so many people completely ignore.

I've said it before but the hunting you tube videos will be the death of hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:


I've said it before but the hunting you tube videos will be the death of hunting.

Yeah youve said it a thousand times. Are you talking about all the videos or just the 'bad' ones (bad in your eyes)?

I have seen some of the Boddington DVDs and they were done very well.

Just because the bloody bunny huggers and PETA lovers don't like what we do, we should not hide it.

We should be trying to educate people of what hunting actually is.

It is NOT a holy grail for "bigger is better"!

It is NOT "collecting" animal to complete some silly notion that I have shot all this and all of that.

there is generally entirely too much emphasis on trophy quality and too little on hunt quality….

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

We should be trying to educate people of what hunting actually is.

It is NOT a holy grail for "bigger is better"!

Trophy hunting, from a conservation point-of-view should be 'older is better' - invariably, frequently, 'older' amounts to 'bigger'... that's where we find ourselves right now. As you say, nothing to be ashamed of in that, we are talking about particpating in conservation after all.

quote:

Trophy hunting, from a conservation point-of-view should be 'older is better' - invariably, frequently, 'older' amounts to 'bigger'... that's where we find ourselves right now

Not necessarily correct.

One will unlikely find a record-breaking trophy in an old Dagga Boy. It may well be a grand trophy but not on the menu for those hunters in competition with one another.

The best trophy in almost any wild, free ranging animal will be the mature adult in its prime as the older they become, so do the horns degenerate from rubbing, fighting etc.

Matt,

On many occasions when we are looking at buffalo, the ones that would score high in the SCI record book are younger bulls.

While the older, mature ones would not make it so high.

A great looking dugga boy with broken horns looks infinitely better than a 45 inch younger one.

But, he won't make it into the SCI record book.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Matt,

On many occasions when we are looking at buffalo, the ones that would score high in the SCI record book are younger bulls.

While the older, mature ones would not make it so high.

A great looking dugga boy with broken horns looks infinitely better than a 45 inch younger one.

But, he won't make it into the SCI record book.

Like I said, not for all animals... but in all likelyhood the old duggaboy will make the SCI record book. SCI buffalo records the mass of the bases as well. I thought you would know that beforre commenting?

What you think looks better and what the next guy thinks may also be two different things.

hell, everything with horns makes the SCI record book- what do you expect when the bar for entry is set sooooo low?

Hey Jerry, how did your hunt go? Have you reported it here? I haven't seen it if you have.
Ck your pm's too.
Thanks,
George

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
hell, everything with horns makes the SCI record book- what do you expect when the bar for entry is set sooooo low?

No, no - Saeed says the dugaboy wouldnt have made the record book.

They just should have had no minumums and we wouldnt be having exchange. If people want to hunt/shoot immature animals (legally) that is their business.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
hell, everything with horns makes the SCI record book- what do you expect when the bar for entry is set sooooo low?

However Jerry they do measure the base/width of horn which is all important when you shoot small shit.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
hell, everything with horns makes the SCI record book- what do you expect when the bar for entry is set sooooo low?

However Jerry they do measure the base/width of horn which is all important when you shoot small shit.

Not an easy feat to get one of those lovely old buggers, full of character; those with polished bosses and worn down horns as recently exemplified by JKHunter to make the book.

These old chaps rarely span 40' (more like 38/39) and more often than not miss out on the required 100 inches (points) by a couple of points.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Matt,

On many occasions when we are looking at buffalo, the ones that would score high in the SCI record book are younger bulls.

While the older, mature ones would not make it so high.

A great looking dugga boy with broken horns looks infinitely better than a 45 inch younger one.

But, he won't make it into the SCI record book.

Like I said, not for all animals... but in all likelyhood the old duggaboy will make the SCI record book. SCI buffalo records the mass of the bases as well. I thought you would know that beforre commenting?

What you think looks better and what the next guy thinks may also be two different things.

Matt,

A dugga boy to me is an old bull with broken or worn down horns.

This will NEVER make the SCI book.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
there is generally entirely too much emphasis on trophy quality and too little on hunt quality….

Agreed, the fun part is always the better part.

Santa Claus

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Man you have a problem with something you obviously have not done. Better get some experience before shooting off with all this jealousy.
"tall poppy syndrome" a typical Aus trait, eg, "that's not hard, should of head shot him with a 308"

WTF are you craping on about?,...NOwhere did I state that it was easy [or not challenging] to headshoot buffalo.

but I gather that some people are up to some challenges and not others.{ to inconvenient to learn or try, so just put it in the 'TFH' basket]

Re: Jealousy????... ..thats utterely hilarious! [and ignorant of you ] ..You're mind appears infantile and imagination is running wild.
I have never been jealous of anyone who shoots what I consider to be relatively dumb inferior intelligence bovine.
In fact I actually kind of feel sorry for those that shoot such animals and then go on to overly dramatise/sensationlise, the experiences of such.
But I can understand that people who predominantly lead boring orderly, urban or domesticated lives, who occasionally get the chance to escape on a such a hunt,
will then have the tendency to get a bigger personal kick [or thrill] out of the experience.

Since mid 1990s, I have explored the Far North remote area tropics of Australia by means of skippering boats, driving motor vehicles and piloting our own privately owned helicopters.
I was able to access areas and meet people [private and traditional land owners] that permitted me to shoot game and fish, that people are usually charged several thousand dollars to experience,
and I was able to hunt them without charge and on my own without back-up..........So I find it rather humorous when Matt Graham says I need experience/trigger time up there.

From my experience through all that , I found that the talk about 'adventure and danger' in the Top end of Australia, is mostly commercial hype.[ not to say the far North is not a a unique beautiful and enjoyable place].
But such hype sure helps to sells hunts [and other holiday products] in the tourism market.
Essentially people get into trouble when they f*ck-up, that is usually because of being unskilled,inexperienced, and ill prepared,...which is then compounded by fear,panic.
Most people wont get the opportunity to explore & hunt in those areas without a 'crutch' like a tour guide or PH being constantly by them....hence will miss out on learning & developing things about themselves.
Spending time with local people in the far north [who don't stand to make any commercial gain from you] also helps to enlighten one to the humble sober truths.


IF one is prepared to attempt to headshoot buff when they charge at you,[ as seldom as that is]
Why would you not also attempt a lesser challenge of attempting it, when they are stationary and unriled?

IF a guy can get to within 4yd with a spear, why cant one attempt a brain shot with rifle at similar distance?


IF a person does not have the confidence and ability to do it to a stationary unriled animal,
then why would they be haphazardly foolish enough to attempt it on a riled/charging animal?
Then again some clients feel they don't need that skill, when they are paying a PH to take care of things they don't care to do.
Mark Sullivan stated his DG hunt clients are hopeless lousy shots,
unfortunately other PHs are not so forthcoming with the truth about some of their clients.

quote:

"tall poppy syndrome" a typical Aus trait, eg, "that's not hard, should of head shot him with a 308"

First some perspective,
TPS is something that originates-dates back to the Roman Empire, not just some much more recent convict settlement in the southern hemisphere.

My understanding of TPS, is where someone is highly successful, [or proficient] at something [say golf or head shooting]
and the mockers & knockers come along and put that skilled and capable person [or practice] down.

In part the reasons are historical; Australia developed from an extreme combination of convicts, who literally had nothing, and ‘free settlers' who often had personal wealth, but no prospects in England. Both groups struggled to survive and both succeeded, but settling in a harsh new country was a great leveller. Struggling to hold onto the British class system, many free settlers tried to deny ex-convicts the normal rights of free citizens and this denial of the opportunity to ‘have a fair go' caused huge resentment against people with money and social position, which had been handed down through generations for 200 years.

Still today the best that you can do for someone is to “give ‘em a fair go” and the ‘Aussie battler' is celebrated as someone who may not ever win, but who will face any adversity and never give up trying. Australians' frequent support of the underdog in everything from sport to business to politics (and particularly in the union movement) celebrates the idea of people who just keep on trying and who would rather be a ‘battler' than a ‘tall poppy'!

Why is is that people would discourage someone from 'having a fair go' at learning to brain buffalo for quick efficient CNS kill
on the first shot?
..But will congratulate someone for , braining a buff,... when it happens to charge?

Essentially it translates to 'battlers' undervaluing themselves by persevering with the more convenient body shots,
but who will also knock/mock and discourage 'Tall Poppies' for being/or attempting to be, proficient and successful at brain shots.

Gentlemen,

We can talk all want about what to do when the chips fall down.

But, reality is totally different when you are under pressure in the middle of a thick bush.

Even those who have been through such experience, cannot tell you what might happen next time it does.

Trax is trying to talk about hunters shooting buffalo in the head, as a primary shot - but he has very little understanding himself, nor experience on the ground - that is patently obvious.

He is just a trouble-making troll.

Matt,
do you encourage your clients to do a headshot if the buff charges?
OR do you discourage it - and take care of things for them...?

IF you believe your clients cannot brain a relatively still,calm animal on the first shot,
surely you would not expect a client [or consider them capable of ] braining a riled and charging beast.

Why would it be wrong to attempt to brain them on the first shot,
but not wrong on subsequent more difficult followup shots?

Instead of calling me troll, why don't you explain the reasons to the forum?

The fact that you would willingly guide a client [with spear] within a couple yd of buff,
but would not want to guide a client to within the same distance for an attempt at brain shot,
seems rather odd and contradictory.

Of course someone who does not like myth-busting logical questions being posed at them, or their contradictions being exposed,
could then easily & conveniently consider/or accuse a person of being a 'trouble maker'.

It really is such a cheap cop-out by you, Matt.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Matt,
do you encourage your clients to do a headshot if the buff charges?
OR do you discourage it - and take care of things for them...?

IF you believe your clients cannot brain a relatively still,calm animal on the first shot,
surely you would not expect a client [or consider them capable of ] braining a riled and charging beast.

Why would it be wrong to attempt to brain them on the first shot,
but not wrong on subsequent more difficult followup shots?

Instead of calling me troll, why don't you explain the reasons to the forum?

The fact that you would willingly guide a client [with spear] within a couple yd of buff,
but would not want to guide a client to within the same distance for an attempt at brain shot,
seems rather odd and contradictory.

Of course someone who does not like myth-busting logical questions being posed at them, or their contradictions being exposed,
could then easily & conveniently consider/or accuse a person of being a 'trouble maker'.

It really is such a cheap cop-out by you, Matt.

All this has been explained in other threads. How about you go post some hunt reports troll - before you talk down to me. That's not a copout - you are simply a trouble-maker with complete lack of experience, preaching to me.

Matt,

An Australian in 1970s killed thousands upon thousand of Buffalo with.308win and his predominate primary shot was the headshot.
Time and buffalo was big money to him,..ie; to kill as many buffalo as he could in the least time, was his main objective.
..Hence he found the most efficient method of achieving that, was the headshot. That is an undeniable cold hard fact.

IF a person has the ability to proficiently perform headshots, then it will always remain the most effective and efficient method of
killing game with a firearm.

Fortunately that pro did not have to tolerate or 'baby' recreational hunters in trying to kill buffalo in the most efficient effective manner possible.
As a PH regularly guiding the less skilled/less proficient recreational hunters, You have the need to accept clients regularly performing body shots,
that I understand.....as a PH guiding less skilled people with a totally different objective, the bodyshot then becomes compromise/luxury you can afford to accept more as the norm.
I understand that you don't have time to coach holiday hunter clients to be proficient performers of headshots, their interest is to simply bag a buff and have a good holiday, and they have the luxury of you cleaning up any mess they create, no matter where they initially hit them.

Ugggg!!!!!! What a monkey screw!



Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Matt,

An Australian in 1970s killed thousands upon thousand of Buffalo with.308win and his predominate primary shot was the headshot.
Time and buffalo was big money to him,..ie; to kill as many buffalo as he could in the least time, was his main objective.
..Hence he found the most efficient method of achieving that, was the headshot. That is an undeniable cold hard fact.

IF a person has the ability to proficiently perform headshots, then it will always remain the most effective and efficient method of
killing game with a firearm.

Fortunately that pro did not have to tolerate or 'baby' recreational hunters in trying to kill buffalo in the most efficient effective manner possible.
As a PH regularly guiding the less skilled/less proficient recreational hunters, You have the need to accept clients regularly performing body shots,
that I understand.....as a PH guiding less skilled people with a totally different objective, the bodyshot then becomes compromise/luxury you can afford to accept more as the norm.
I understand that you don't have time to coach holiday hunter clients to be proficient performers of headshots, their interest is to simply bag a buff and have a good holiday, and they have the luxury of you cleaning up any mess they create, no matter where they initially hit them.

Sean Russell,
you should book a hunt with Matt Graham, and show him how you 'sweat real blood' when you hunt DG,
Graham is into seeing stunts performed on hunts he conducts, but I doubt he has ever seen anything as
silly or absurd as what you claim.....BE sure to show a video of it all!

I have shot many buffalo in the head as a first shot.

Never had any problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have shot many buffalo in the head as a first shot.

Never had any problems.

Saeed doesnt mind feeding him...

quote:

Since mid 1990s, I have explored the Far North remote area tropics of Australia by means of skippering boats, driving motor vehicles and piloting our own privately owned helicopters.
I was able to access areas and meet people [private and traditional land owners] that permitted me to shoot game and fish, that people are usually charged several thousand dollars to experience,
and I was able to hunt them without charge and on my own without back-up..........So I find it rather humorous when Matt Graham says I need experience/trigger time up there.

Trax,

Can you post some of the quarry that you hunted? I assume in includes plenty of water buffalo.

Santa Claus.

Funny, I thought the intent of this discussion was centered around trying to educate hunters in general that some videos/photos either should not be posted on sites like YouTube/FaceBook or only done so after some thoughtful/judicious editing, so as not to portray hunters in a negative manner, either in the eyes/mind of fellow hunters or the general Non-Hunting public.

No picture/video of any aspect of hunting is acceptable to anti's so that is nothing to concern one's self with.

Just my opinion, but the subject of proper bullet placement when shooting buffalo or any other animal deserves a thread of its own.

quote:

Originally posted by Santa Claus:

quote:

Since mid 1990s, I have explored the Far North remote area tropics of Australia by means of skippering boats, driving motor vehicles and piloting our own privately owned helicopters.
I was able to access areas and meet people [private and traditional land owners] that permitted me to shoot game and fish, that people are usually charged several thousand dollars to experience,
and I was able to hunt them without charge and on my own without back-up..........So I find it rather humorous when Matt Graham says I need experience/trigger time up there.

Trax,

Can you post some of the quarry that you hunted? I assume in includes plenty of water buffalo.

Santa Claus.

actually he can't as he has never been to Africa- although he has a lot of opinions on the subject

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
Dave I agree with you, this is the type of thing that have a negative effect on our country's reputation. I did forward a link to Adri.

Thx Jaco
I wanted to bring it up at the PHASA AGM this coming week.maybe I'll see you there

Please let us know how PHASA responds.

Being a newcomer to African big game hunting, I am totally confused regarding the ethical/unethical hunting of dangerous game. So hunting "pen raised" buffalo and/or lion is considered to be unethical, whereas, hunting wild leopard at night (using bait and a spotlight) is considered to be ethical. Hmm?

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Santa Claus:

quote:

Since mid 1990s, I have explored the Far North remote area tropics of Australia by means of skippering boats, driving motor vehicles and piloting our own privately owned helicopters.
I was able to access areas and meet people [private and traditional land owners] that permitted me to shoot game and fish, that people are usually charged several thousand dollars to experience,
and I was able to hunt them without charge and on my own without back-up..........So I find it rather humorous when Matt Graham says I need experience/trigger time up there.

Trax,

Can you post some of the quarry that you hunted? I assume in includes plenty of water buffalo.

Santa Claus.

actually he can't as he has never been to Africa- although he has a lot of opinions on the subject

We would still like to see some photographs even if it is water buffalo, and not african buffalo. Pictures are just so much more informative and a joy to appreciate the trophies. How do we know that Trax has not been in Africa to shoot african buffalo, as he seems much too experienced the way he writes to make that assumption.

Santa Claus

quote:

Originally posted by Cajun1956:
Being a newcomer to African big game hunting, I am totally confused regarding the ethical/unethical hunting of dangerous game. So hunting "pen raised" buffalo and/or lion is considered to be unethical, whereas, hunting wild leopard at night (using bait and a spotlight) is considered to be ethical. Hmm?

Cajun:

Yours is a comparison between apples & oranges and you are giving the impression you do not know much about Leopard hunting or are you suggesting there is a canned version that is hunted by day, using dogs maybe?

quote:

Originally posted by Cajun1956:
Being a newcomer to African big game hunting, I am totally confused regarding the ethical/unethical hunting of dangerous game. So hunting "pen raised" buffalo and/or lion is considered to be unethical, whereas, hunting wild leopard at night (using bait and a spotlight) is considered to be ethical. Hmm?

Cajun, I understand your confusion with the ethics of hunting African dangerous game!

Being new to African hunting, that is not unusual. First off leopard are not hunted in most places at night with artificial light. That is usually in the same countries where the pen raised buffalo, and lion are hunted in very small enclosures. Like you I find that to be an abhorrent practice.

The fact is the only way to successfully hunt Leopard is on bait, or with hounds. Even on bait of with dogs, it is not uncommon for a hunter to go to Africa three or four times to hunt leopard with either method, and go home empty. This is also why anyone who wants a leopard it is recommended they book at least a 14 day safari, and spend all the time collecting baits, and baiting several different sights. A Leopard is one of the hardest animals in Africa to collect on just one try. Once that is understood most will not find baiting for the cats including wild lion an unethical activity!

On the pen raised game, most have lost their natural fear of man, because they have been handled by people since birth. Though these animals are still dangerous, if the hunting party takes chances with them, they are simply easier to find, and the hunt is nothing more than a monetary transaction much like going the cattle auction, and stand at the fence and shooting a Jersey bull you have just bought. Leopard are not included in the penned hunts because there is no way you can hold a leopard in even a high fenced pasture. Leopard are not endangered, and are far more common in the wild as well as very close to or in towns, but are one of the hardest to collect trophies in the world.

This always makes me laugh when I here the down grading of baiting the cats or bear! The person who is making this judgment, is usually sitting in a tower box blind over a corn feeder to shoot a deer every season, or in some places running them with dogs.

.....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Cajun1956:
Being a newcomer to African big game hunting, I am totally confused regarding the ethical/unethical hunting of dangerous game. So hunting "pen raised" buffalo and/or lion is considered to be unethical, whereas, hunting wild leopard at night (using bait and a spotlight) is considered to be ethical. Hmm?

Cajun, I understand your confusion with the ethics of hunting African dangerous game!

Being new to African hunting, that is not unusual. First off leopard are not hunted in most places at night with artificial light. That is usually in the same countries where the pen raised buffalo, and lion are hunted in very small enclosures. Like you I find that to be an abhorrent practice.

The fact is the only way to successfully hunt Leopard is on bait, or with hounds. Even on bait of with dogs, it is not uncommon for a hunter to go to Africa three or four times to hunt leopard with either method, and go home empty. This is also why anyone who wants a leopard it is recommended they book at least a 14 day safari, and spend all the time collecting baits, and baiting several different sights. A Leopard is one of the hardest animals in Africa to collect on just one try. Once that is understood most will not find baiting for the cats including wild lion an unethical activity!

On the pen raised game, most have lost their natural fear of man, because they have been handled by people since birth. Though these animals are still dangerous, if the hunting party takes chances with them, they are simply easier to find, and the hunt is nothing more than a monetary transaction much like going the cattle auction, and stand at the fence and shooting a Jersey bull you have just bought. Leopard are not included in the penned hunts because there is no way you can hold a leopard in even a high fenced pasture. Leopard are not endangered, and are far more common in the wild as well as very close to or in towns, but are one of the hardest to collect trophies in the world.

This always makes me laugh when I here the down grading of baiting the cats or bear! The person who is making this judgment, is usually sitting in a tower box blind over a corn feeder to shoot a deer every season, or in some places running them with dogs.

.....................................................................

Cajun,

Yes Sir, you ARE confused.

Mac, might want to check that statement on places where night hunting of leopard is allowed with lights! CAMPFIRE areas of Zim? Took my first leopard in Tuli at night with the use of artificial light.

I agree with you 100% however on the use of bait for cats and black bear. I've got no problem with it at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Cajun,

Yes Sir, you ARE confused.

Mac, might want to check that statement on places where night hunting of leopard is allowed with lights! CAMPFIRE areas of Zim? Took my first leopard in Tuli at night with the use of artificial light.

I agree with you 100% however on the use of bait for cats and black bear. I've got no problem with it at all.

I stand corrected! I am aware of the fact that there are a few places where one can use artificial light to take both Lion AND Leopard. There are many places where they can't as well. In any event some take the use of light to be akin to spotlighting deer.

As has been said many times here, ethics are a personal thing, and if it is legal where you are hunting then it is up to you whether you want to participate or not!

It all boils down to "when in Rome, do as the Romans do!" if it doesn't go against your personal ethics.

Good luck on old spots Todd!
....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Cajun,

Yes Sir, you ARE confused.

Mac, might want to check that statement on places where night hunting of leopard is allowed with lights! CAMPFIRE areas of Zim? Took my first leopard in Tuli at night with the use of artificial light.

I agree with you 100% however on the use of bait for cats and black bear. I've got no problem with it at all.

I stand corrected! I am aware of the fact that there are a few places where one can use artificial light to take both Lion AND Leopard. There are many places where they can't as well. In any event some take the use of light to be akin to spotlighting deer.

As has been said many times here, ethics are a personal thing, and if it is legal where you are hunting then it is up to you whether you want to participate or not!

It all boils down to "when in Rome, do as the Romans do!" if it doesn't go against your personal ethics.

Good luck on old spots Todd!
....................................................................

Thanks Mac. This one, like the last, will definitely be a daylight cat, it there is a cat at the end of the hunt! One never knows with cats!

quote:

Originally posted by Santa Claus:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Santa Claus:

quote:

Since mid 1990s, I have explored the Far North remote area tropics of Australia by means of skippering boats, driving motor vehicles and piloting our own privately owned helicopters.
I was able to access areas and meet people [private and traditional land owners] that permitted me to shoot game and fish, that people are usually charged several thousand dollars to experience,
and I was able to hunt them without charge and on my own without back-up..........So I find it rather humorous when Matt Graham says I need experience/trigger time up there.

Trax,

Can you post some of the quarry that you hunted? I assume in includes plenty of water buffalo.

Santa Claus.

actually he can't as he has never been to Africa- although he has a lot of opinions on the subject

We would still like to see some photographs even if it is water buffalo, and not african buffalo. Pictures are just so much more informative and a joy to appreciate the trophies. How do we know that Trax has not been in Africa to shoot african buffalo, as he seems much too experienced the way he writes to make that assumption.

Santa Claus

IIRC, he has stated such in the past-but you are right, he certainly sounds experienced