Having seen what a coffee colored springbok looks like, I could see the concern. I've seen lots of boulders and stumps that I thought were deer at first glance - with an itchy trigger finger and persuasion of the mind, the "coffee" color might not be very evident until after the shot.

A number of years ago I was hunting with two PH's. One was a veteran and the other brand new. The veteran asked me if I would let the new PH run the hunt and the veteran would tag along in the back and make sure all went well. I said sure.

One day while walking we saw two warthogs drop down into a draw. The new PH said the warthog we want is just coming out of a draw and will appear behind that bush. When I saw a warthog walk out from behind the bush I shot. With the rifle kick, I couldn't see anything for the tall grass. The PH said I had missed and the warthog had run off. The shot was apx. 70 yards and I knew I hadn't missed. I said lets walk up there. We walked up to a dead warthog that was 20 yards from the one he had wanted me to shoot.

The veteran PH had seen everything that happened and just watched. He then told the new PH that me shooting the wrong warthog was his fault. The new PH should have glanced over my shoulder to verify that I was aiming at the correct animal before I pulled the trigger. The veteran had seen everything that happened and instead of correcting me before the shot, thought it would be best for the new PH to learn a lesson through experience.

According to the veteran PH, it is always the PH's responsibility to verify that the hunter is pointing the rifle at the correct animal.



With all that being said, if I was a PH, I wouldn't hunt a property where a $100,000 mistake could be made.

The comments are interesting. I, too, tend to agree that it would be the PH's responsibility to ensure the hunter is focused on the right animal . . . after all they are the ones experienced in judging trophy quality, maturity, etc. That said, it also highlights for me the reality that the hunter in many regards is just the trigger man on many of these hunts. The PH and trackers decide what tracks to follow, the hunter tags along while the PH and trackers track, the PH puts up the sticks and tells the hunter which animal to shoot, the hunter pulls the trigger. I almost sort of wish I could conclude that it is not the PH's responsibility.

Been there done that.. Kyrgyzstan for Ibex. They guide tells me to shoot "number 2" from right. The 2nd one in is a bully and I shoot him. Guide tells me it was the wrong animal. He meant the 2nd male from the right. I paid and that was my trophy.
2nd trip to Africa in the East Cape. Herd of Blesbuck come by and stop at 75 yards. PH initially passes. Then they stop at 225 yds. He says to take the 4th one. So I do. Problem is one was behind the brush and mine is number 5. I pulled the trigger so I paid the fee....
First trip to Africa hunting red Hartebeast. Had a herd at 190 yds at last light. PH says to shoot the 3rd one in from the left. So I do and it drops. When we walk up its a female. PH immediately says that it is his fault and he will pay the fee. No questions, just my fault.
Not sure I'd want to hunt a place with springbuck at those prices! Maybe other animals, but not Springbuck. Accidents happen and sooner or later there will be a screw up. Bruce

Ibex was a Billy. Darn I-pad..... Bruce

It is always the hunters ultimate responsibility to take or not take the shot.Yes given bad advise on what animal to shoot by the PH can relive you of a trophy fee on the wrong animal. But if you are in any way uncomfortable with the shot not sure if it is the right animal or the safety of the shot you do not have to pull the trigger no matter the urging by the PH

quote:

Originally posted by shotgun46:
It is always the hunters ultimate responsibility to take or not take the shot.Yes given bad advise on what animal to shoot by the PH can relive you of a trophy fee on the wrong animal. But if you are in any way uncomfortable with the shot not sure if it is the right animal or the safety of the shot you do not have to pull the trigger no matter the urging by the PH

That is like saying if you have issues keeping up with the PH,or sometimes feel tired or out of breath,and your rifle hold is not the steadiest,or feel uncomfortable in any way,or things are not perfect,you should stay home.

Why does this guy have such a valuable animal where it might get accidentally shot? I wouldn't .

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:

quote:

Originally posted by CowboyCS:
I went to Google currency converter and it said 2.5 million Rand is approx $168,000 U.S. Dollars.

Is that correct? Does this Farmer really want 168K for a Coffee colored Sprinkbok?

Apparently the Latte ones are more expensive...

Not so much as the Earl Grey variant.

Is this coffee with cream or without???..

Jokes aside, I would expect the PH to tell me about this very expensive animal upon arrival before the hunt starts. After that I would take springboks off my wish list for the hunt.

I do feel that the hunter is responsible to a certain extent when the trigger is pulled. That said, I would not subject myself to the risk when the price of the mistake is more than double the trophy fee.

Again it all comes down to communication, before and during the hunt. If in doubt, back off. I for one am happy that these types of situations/scenarios get brought to light.
It can be tough if a land owner has these ridiculous rules but if you have an opportunity to secure a great concession with good trophies, you may be inclined to take the risk. What is important is to determine how much of a risk are you willing to take.

What I find hilarious about this whole colour-variant breeding business is how they are all so busy selling to each other at inflated prices, that they have totally lost sight of who the end user is!

A quick read of this thread would be ample due-diligence for any prospective investor in these schemes/scams...

Wasn't SCI going to step in and shut down all the nonsense?

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Wasn't SCI going to step in and shut down all the nonsense?

SCI shutdown this nonsense? I doubt it. The more varieties, the more money they make in selling awards to people who did not get participation trophies when they were kids. Now SCI has filled the niche for these folks.....

quote:

Originally posted by AR79:
Is this coffee with cream or without???..

Jokes aside, I would expect the PH to tell me about this very expensive animal upon arrival before the hunt starts. After that I would take springboks off my wish list for the hunt.

I do feel that the hunter is responsible to a certain extent when the trigger is pulled. That said, I would not subject myself to the risk when the price of the mistake is more than double the trophy fee.

I'd want to know about before booking, not upon arrival.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by AR79:
Is this coffee with cream or without???..

Jokes aside, I would expect the PH to tell me about this very expensive animal upon arrival before the hunt starts. After that I would take springboks off my wish list for the hunt.

I do feel that the hunter is responsible to a certain extent when the trigger is pulled. That said, I would not subject myself to the risk when the price of the mistake is more than double the trophy fee.

I'd want to know about before booking, not upon arrival.

Very true. Thought about the same after I posted. If not prior to booking, then definitely at least in advance enough where alternate plans could be made.

I think the reason I put upon arrival is that the more I hunt in Africa, the more it becomes about the experience than taking a specific animal on a wish list. Personally to me, it would not make much of a difference if I took a springbok off my list upon arrival....coffee, latte or earl grey....

I may look at it differently if I specifically went to hunt a springbok.

I had a hunter who had hunted with me many times a good guy but a bit arrogant, any way we got the chance to hunt a group of big Fallow Bucks, I got him up on them 150yrds or so, but he needed another few feet for a rest so I couldn't be right next to him or touch him as I usually would as the Bucks might spot my movement, he took the shot I saw the right Buck (we had discuss this) receive the hit, stagger & drop into a dip, spooking the other Buck out of it, he ran around the side of a ridge say 180-200yds, I saw my hunter tracking him in the scope & like in one of those movies wear the guys words coming out in slow motion ... Nooooooo ! I was just out of reach, all this in a split second (but I held onto "shit running at 200yrds bound to miss) any way he kills the darn thing deader than the target Stag, some could ague that it was my fault & I suppose it was as I was in charge of him at the time, but he paid for both Stags I still felt like I had messed up trusting him just a little more than I should have & haven't felt right asking that run holder to hunt his place again !

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The client is paying and travelling across the world to shoot the right animal.If he shoots the wrong one you can be pretty sure it's the PH or outfitter at fault.

So the PH or outfitter is at fault when a dipshit like yourself shoots a buff cow instead of a bull when the PH didn't give you the go ahead to shoot at all? If I was the outfitter or PH, I'd never accept you as a client!

I had enough of you and your little gang of Texas FucK Heads-Go Fuck Yourself.Lyin' Todd!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The client is paying and travelling across the world to shoot the right animal.If he shoots the wrong one you can be pretty sure it's the PH or outfitter at fault.

Not necessarily!

I have heard of many clients shooting the wrong animals than the ones they were supposed to.

I just love this

wouldn't want to hunt there. too hard to tell the difference between those 2 photos. wouldn't want to anyway.
If you (the landowner) are going to overvalue some made up distinction or bred in distinction of an animal, then dart it and put it in a pen so mistakes don't happen.

all these "color variants" that farmers breed for are not for me anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Gillettehunter:
Ibex was a Billy. Darn I-pad..... Bruce

I liked the story better when you had shot the bully. Bullys deserve it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rphguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Gillettehunter:
Ibex was a Billy. Darn I-pad..... Bruce

I liked the story better when you had shot the bully. Bullys deserve it.

Yep, I liked it better as a "bully". I figured Idaho Sharpshouter was involved....

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The client is paying and travelling across the world to shoot the right animal.If he shoots the wrong one you can be pretty sure it's the PH or outfitter at fault.

Not necessarily!

I have heard of many clients shooting the wrong animals than the ones they were supposed to.

I doubt you will have a smart,healthy,fit and experienced hunter shoot the wrong animal.If he did I would look at the whole story behind the event and not a one sided story.Not a story that says that this hunter is not from Texas or England so let's trash him.

Any reputable Outfitter will always hold the PH accountable. A good PH will always ask his client what he is seeing while on the sticks. A client should never pull a trigger unless he is told to take the shot unless it is an emergency.
Horn judging from a distance is a big part of the training for a PH license. Everyone makes mistakes but a PH that communicates with his client should not have many issues. Lots of Outfitters hold the PH responsible for mistakes and they are required to pay the difference. After all, PH does mean Professional Hunter. They are the ones held accountable.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The client is paying and travelling across the world to shoot the right animal.If he shoots the wrong one you can be pretty sure it's the PH or outfitter at fault.

Not necessarily!

I have heard of many clients shooting the wrong animals than the ones they were supposed to.

I doubt you will have a smart ,healthy,fit and experienced hunter shoot the wrong animal.If he did I would look at the whole story behind the event and not a one sided story.Not a story that says that this hunter is not from Texas or England so let's trash him.

I suppose that's the part that ruled you out when you shot the wrong animal ... without clearance from the PH!




As to your previous post, anytime you feel froggy, just jump! In fact, take a flying leap!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The client is paying and travelling across the world to shoot the right animal.If he shoots the wrong one you can be pretty sure it's the PH or outfitter at fault.

Not necessarily!

I have heard of many clients shooting the wrong animals than the ones they were supposed to.

Yep! I can think of one infamous one right off the top of my head. Some moron from the Great White North named George something or other! But in all fairness, I think he had a screw loose on his shooting helmet that day!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
The client is paying and travelling across the world to shoot the right animal.If he shoots the wrong one you can be pretty sure it's the PH or outfitter at fault.

Not necessarily!

I have heard of many clients shooting the wrong animals than the ones they were supposed to.

I doubt you will have a smart,healthy,fit and experienced hunter shoot the wrong animal.If he did I would look at the whole story behind the event and not a one sided story.Not a story that says that this hunter is not from Texas or England so let's trash him.

Who needs "the story"???? We saw the video.

If it unclear for the PH what chance would the client have.

PH issue.

If the contract for hunting is not workable, don't hunt there.

Overall, the PH is in charge and responsible. However, that does not remove the client from certain responsibilities, such as listening to the PH and following instructions. I would not hunt property with the situation explained in the original post. That scenario is the warning order for an unpleasant experience.

I also will not hunt with any outfitters/guides/properties that have pay by size price menus and disclaimers to remove them from responsibility. Example: 100-120 is $; 121-135 is $$; 136-140 is $$$$; 141-145 is $$$$$; 146 and up is $$$$$$$$$$. If you present the scenario of paying for 121-135. During the hunt you see an animal that both (shooter and guide) agree is within the 121-135 so it is killed. It is measured at 136. Who is responsible? Most of these outfits will say "the shooter; it says it clearly on the contract!" I am not judging or condemning anyone. I am just saying I will not participate.

Safe travels.............LL

Shit happens !!

I have, on perhaps 3 or 4 occasions, been in this position, and not once was there any uproar from either the client, the PH or the operator.

Why? Because we are grown men, with a sense of accountability and responsibility and an ability to act in a mature manner and resolve issues, akin to a good Republican..............

I don't drink coffee at all so don't really know what color that might mean to someone else. I've seen it as black as can be black and very light tan.

Having been in the carpet business some years ago and having that same type discussion many times over: "I want earth tone colored carpet"
Just what part of the world are we talking about here?? Plumb white as snow or black as can be or anything in between.

What color is it we're talking about.

Used to hunt coyotes with a guy with quite a bit of experience. He told me one very early morning in the mist at 200yds all he could see was the silohette. Picture this you guys. "sitting coyote shape, ears sticking up typical, right? Now picture this: gray horse just his face showing, same shape or real close, ears sticking up". It cost the man $900 for the fk up! Instead of getting a paying fur, he paid the rancher most of a months wages. Hell of a lot cheaper than that springbok.
Still a major screw up.

Good discussion Andrew, know you said it was worked out, we're still waiting on an explanation sir.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
Shit happens !!

I have, on perhaps 3 or 4 occasions, been in this position, and not once was there any uproar from either the client, the PH or the operator.

Why? Because we are grown men, with a sense of accountability and responsibility and an ability to act in a mature manner and resolve issues, akin to a good Republican..............

You also did not have a $170K liability to deal with

Mike

I once had a PH insist that I shoot a particular animal (cape buffalo). After pulling the trigger he stated, "Oh shit, that wasn't the one I thought it was." I got to pay the trophy fee anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
I once had a PH insist that I shoot a particular animal (cape buffalo). After pulling the trigger he stated, "Oh shit, that wasn't the one I thought it was." I got to pay the trophy fee anyway.

You probably shot the wrong one and your PH covered up for you.

Is it just me or is our resident fucktard off his meds again?

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Is it just me or is our resident fucktard off his meds again?

Not just you! He's off his meds for sure, and STILL off his rocker!



Not to mention, I can't think of single other person on this forum less positioned to question others on shooting the wrong animal. The dude definitely lives in a glass house on this one!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Is it just me or is our resident fucktard off his meds again?

Not just you! He's off his meds for sure, and STILL off his rocker!



Not to mention, I can't think of single other person on this forum less positioned to question others on shooting the wrong animal. The dude definitely lives in a glass house on this one!

In case shitaway was wondering. The behavior shown in this thread is why he was not allowed to ride on the big bus with the "normal" children. Now you know George, you're not just "special" you're also and primarily an asshole.

Yep you should stay home

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by shotgun46:
It is always the hunters ultimate responsibility to take or not take the shot.Yes given bad advise on what animal to shoot by the PH can relive you of a trophy fee on the wrong animal. But if you are in any way uncomfortable with the shot not sure if it is the right animal or the safety of the shot you do not have to pull the trigger no matter the urging by the PH

That is like saying if you have issues keeping up with the PH,or sometimes feel tired or out of breath,and your rifle hold is not the steadiest,or feel uncomfortable in any way,or things are not perfect,you should stay home.