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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Who is held responsible for the result of pulling the trigger?It did not happen to mGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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It [most fortunately] did not happen to me.But it could have, and the consequences would have been disastrous! During recent negotiations with a game farm owner to take a large number of foreign clients hunting for, among other, springbok on his farm, we came to very amicable agreement on prices, rules and so forth. My electronic draft of the verbal agreement was sent to the farmer for final editing and approval. When I received his edited, by insertion in his own handwriting in ballpoint pen, into my typed version, I was more than a bit surprised. He, among a few minor changes, also inserted a special category of springbok; a coffee-color variant at R 25 000 cost to me as the hunting outfitter. Or that is how I initially read it. I proceeded to edit my electronic version of our Draft Hunting Contract to incorporate his suggested changes! It was then when I took oa good look and got a real shock: His cost for shooting a coffee-color variant of a springbok was not, as I initially read it to be, R 25 000, but indeed a whopping R 2 500 000.00! Now, there was no way that I was going to expose my little hunting outfitting firm to have to pay a farmer R 2 1/2 million Rand if any one of the 4 Freelance PH's working for me allowed, be it negligently, intentionally or accidentally, a foreign client to put me up to have to pay that amount of money for shooting the farmer's treasured coffee-colored springbok. Think of it: It will amount to paying about R 100 000 per kilogram, (or about US $ 3 000 per pound) of springbok meat! Now this situation got me thinking, hard! Who should carry the final responsibility for the cost incurred on pulling the trigger? The hunter pulls the trigger - but he should do so only on clear instruction or approval of his PH! So the PH tells him to "Shoot the one third from left!", but somehow the PH (or the hunter) did not consider counting the one on the extreme left - and down goes the famous coffee-colored springbok variant! Remember, that in this particular instance the PH, being from the Free State can only speak English in self defense. But in this case the client can also only speak English in self defense! So there is ample room for misunderstandings, based on language alone. But, make the farmer's son one of the Freelance PH's working for me, and we have another motivation for possible deliberate making of a mistake - at my cost to his father's fortune. But I do not wish to dwell on this particular possibility - we have since resolved the issue amicably - but wish to just ask about such general hunting incidents: Mistaken sex, wrong species, not a Roland Ward size, on the wrong side of the fence or any of so many possible mistakes that can be made even when a client shoots "only" what his PH tells him to. But the hunting outfitter bears the ultimate cost responsibility. Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | ||
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If the client has taken the animal the PH has recommended, then the PH should bear the responsibility. If the client with full knowledge and understanding has taken an animal contrary to the instructions of the PH then the client should take full responsibility. If it is a case of misunderstanding it would depend on the specific circumstances. | |||
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Andrew I am not sure that I would have agreed to hunt with clients on a property with such ridiculous stipulations. Further, not sure too many clients would agree to hunt knowing that there is a potential that he could be facing down a R$2.5 million mistake. I sure as hell wouldn't. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Andrew I would have sent that contract back with some notes of my own. Dont hunt with arseholes, they not worth the time or effort. You are clearly getting lined up by a con artist. Good luck Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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The PH takes responsibility. Now , here's the problem : The PH says shoot the one on the right , animals switch places while milling around . Now he's 3rd from the left in the group that has broken away , and so forth. Eventually off course the coffee colored freak gets smoked - by accident. The lesson is , don't hunt a place like this. Its ridiculous. | |||
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Well said Jan. Make a stand against this sort of bullshit. These guys only exist because of us hunters and yet they treat us like some giant cow to be milked at every opportunity. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I fully understand your dilemma. I was on the sticks looking at some gemsbuck as my ph was galssing them, he said take the 1 on the left, I shot, he looked at me and said, "you shot the wrong one". There was a 4th 1 that I never saw. Since it wasn't a 2.5 million gemsbuck, he agreed to not charge me for it. But I am the one that pulled the trigger, I accepted him as my trophy & paid the bill. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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having never hunted with a PH I don't feel as though I'm qualified to vote but will still throw in my thoughts: on one hand I as the hunter an ultimately responsible for pulling the trigger HOWEVER I feel that in a situation with a guide/PH it is my responsibility to wait for the guide's clearance to shoot a particular animal and my responsibility would be to make sure that: 1. i am happy with said animal 2. I feel it is a safe shot (not skylined, no house behind my target, ect...) 3. I feel it is a shot that I can make and ethically harvest said animal personally I wouldn't want to hunt somewhere with a super expensive mistaken kill animal as if I misinterpret 3rd from the left and shoot the wrong color of animal then it has the potential to turn into a your word vs PH's word vs my words argument which no one wants to be in | |||
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It is very simple for a mistaken identity shooting to occur.Consider you are behind the PH on a grassy covered slope and the animal you want to shoot is only a few yards in front of you in a small herd.There is however another animal just behind, likewise broadside, that you are not ware of.Your PH points to the animal he wants you to shoot and as you momentarily take your eyes off the animal it starts to move away leaving the animal behind it in the same position.You see the animal that stayed there and shoot it.The slope,grass and being behind the PH did not allow for a full view as to what was occurring.Then your PH starts yelling "what did you do?" "I am not paying for it" and taking all sorts of fits.This said IMO it should be the PH who pays for the mistake. When you are ready and approach the animal you want to shoot this is where the skills of a PH should really come into play. As for the above hunt in SA with the expensive animal,if I were the judge in such a case I would go against the ranch owner and hold no one responsible but him. | |||
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Has anyone considered the fact that sometimes an animals which looks far away from being in danger gets killed?? It had happened to me a number of times, and the animals were no where near each other. In fact, I have seen bullets exit an animal right angel from where it had entered. | |||
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Why to use such an idiotic farmer? Don't you have access to better properties? | |||
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"Shoot the 3rd springbok to the left. Do not shoot the coffee colored one right behind him, it is $2.5MM rand." There, problem solved. I could see how you could screw up and shoot the wrong zebra in a group of zebra, but a coffee colored springbuck in a group of non-coffee colored ones. If this was on a game ranch in Texas and you shot a Pierre David deer thinking it was an axis deer, client would be forking over money for the Pierre David. ____________________________ If you died tomorrow, what would you have done today ... 2018 Zimbabwe - Tuskless w/ Nengasha Safaris 2011 Mozambique - Buffalo w/ Mashambanzou Safaris | |||
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I went to Google currency converter and it said 2.5 million Rand is approx $168,000 U.S. Dollars. Is that correct? Does this Farmer really want 168K for a Coffee colored Sprinkbok? | |||
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Apparently the Latte ones are more expensive... | |||
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- A client hunter would be crazy to agree to hunt springbok on a property under these terms. - A professional hunter would be crazy to conduct a hunt for springbok on a property under these terms. - An operator would be crazy to organize a hunt for springbok with a landowner under these terms. There is far too much risk for all parties...mistakes, accidental shootings, and scams do occur. The sum of money involved is far beyond shooting the wrong animal on a game farm in Texas, or double trophy fee for shooting a female. This is not like "don't shoot my rhino on your buffalo hunt"....this is a herd animal that for a visiting client hunter in certain circumstances could all look the same. IMO Andrew unless you had your PH and client made aware of this financial risk, and they signed a contract that they accepted responsibiliy, you are responsible. | |||
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That is assuming the client is really stupid or on drugs. | |||
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It better have solid gold horns for that price. | |||
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I would tear up the contract and find a better place to hunt. NRA Patron member | |||
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I wouldn't touch that hunt, there's much better deals out there. Jerry Huffaker State, National and World Champion Taxidermist | |||
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I have a very simple rule - If the land owner have stupid rules I do not hunt on his property. In any way I do not hunt on a property where color variants are bred. I can accept that a property owner have restriction on the hunting of specific species. If the ph makes a mistake, he pays. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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I can imagine the argument now: "That springbok is NOT coffee-colored." "Yes, it is. It's just not as coffee-colored as that one over there but it is still one of the coffee-colored ones you weren't supposed to shoot." . | |||
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Guys, This coffee colored springbok aside I think in most cases its the responsibility of the shooter. After all he pulled the trigger. I've had two f---ups. Once I shot the wrong animal. Four buffalo crossing our front and I thought I was on the right one. First he was second then he was third etc, Blam! DRT! Wrong buffalo. Operator offered to split the trophy fee with me but I sucked it up. Recently a PH told me we were going after a big kudu he had just seen. The stalk went right and when the kudu stepped out I shot him perfectly. When we taped the kudu he was 5" shy of the PH's estimate. Here I think it could have gone two ways. If the PH was consistently off on his trophy judgement perhaps I could have bitched but he was spot on with every other animals and actually amazingly so. Why ruin the safari by causing a ruckus. Basically my philosophy is if you pull the trigger you own it. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Have any of your clients or you faced a $170K bill for shooting the wrong animal. Not wrong animal in hunting for springbok and shooting a rhino but shooting based on color variations. This kind of stuff makes hunting a scam. Mike | |||
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No way on god's earth would I do business with someone who put a clause in such as that price for a colour variant but on the subject of who pays, the simple answer is whoever the contract says is responsible and in any sensible safari contract between outfitter & client the contract will say if the client shoots an animal, he's responsible for the trophy fee...... if it didn't stipulate that, the wrong client could cost the outfitter a fortune. | |||
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The client is paying and travelling across the world to shoot the right animal.If he shoots the wrong one you can be pretty sure it's the PH or outfitter at fault. | |||
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Andrew, most of my hunting is unguided as a citizen but I have also spent lots of time hunting with PH's. Maybe my take is slighlthy different but I am comfortable if: I am prepared well enough and involved enough in the hunt process that should the PH be 'beamed up by Scotty' I would like to think that I can conclude the hunt successfully on my own. This is not to imply that I don't want or value the PH or see them as redundant, but rather that I get more value for my money and time if I am prepared as to the what, why and where of the hunt, rather than tagging along to pull the trigger after being told the third coffee coloured one from the left is the right one. For me that is a shooting range experience, 'you see the third pole from the left? The second target to the right, it is a little orange dot'. I have never pulled the trigger without judging the animal's trophy quality for myself and deciding for myself if this is the animal I should shoot. The guy who pulls the trigger takes responsibilty and should prepare for the shot with due diligence. Miscommunication is a huge problem in hunting and one should always double check that you are speaking of the same thing. 2 years ago we were hunting eland and my wife and I are glassing a herd over a kilometer away. The next moment she asks if I am going to take a shot and I think are you nuts ??? No, she wasn't but she is glassing a herd 200m from us on the slope and I am glassing a herd on the opposite slope  | |||
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I am in the camp that says don't hunt with this guy. What the heck is a "coffee colored" springbok? I kind of thought most of them look brown. Unless there is a formal way of determining it, or more precisely if what is a coffee color is clearly determined so that all agree, it is a potential mess. Now,I could see one little caveat...if he has a group of 5-6 pets that are in his fron yard fenced away from everything else, and what he means is don't shoot anything in this little pen that is my daughters pet playground,then a huge fee for not following instructions I could see maybe. So far, when I shot the wrong thing, I have manned up and accepts it was my fault, but it was my fault. My feeling is that if the ph gave the wrong instructions, it's on him as far as animal selection and legality. If I don't follow his direction its on me. I have never been in a situation where I have been all that worked up on size that I felt the ph had made a blunder. Have animals been smaller than expected? Sure. I still paid the bill. | |||
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I agree with Bill. 1. Do not hunt there. 2. The PH is responsible - he is the "profesional". He is being paid to guide and direct. 3. There are too many springbok in the world to shoot a mutant.... | |||
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Yep. | |||
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  Would never even consider hunting a property like that. Normal vs "coffe springbok" | |||
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Looks like one spent more time in the sun.  ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Please tell us the details of the resolution. | |||
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$168,202 USD for those of us  that don't think quickly in SA Rands (ZAR).Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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I agree with Mark. You pull the trigger, you own the results. That said, I also have experienced a lack of communication and that was with a PH who spoke proper English, but I only speak American English.[the whole two people separated by a common language thing]. Fortunately it was only on an impala, so no real harm done. I said, "the one facing to the right?" He said yes, impala died. We hadn't clarified whether it was facing to my right or the impala's right. I always work out these details in advance since then. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sevens: "Shoot the 3rd springbok to the left. Do not shoot the coffee colored one right behind him, it is $2.5MM rand." YEAH, that's when I would say hunt is over. 2.5MM rand,...sounds more like a scam. Why would the farmer have $168k springbok running around with $800 springbok. There is no way in hell that I would hunt a property like that. I've been on game ranches in african that had off-limits animals marked with ear tags. Back to the original question, if I shoot the animal the PH instructs me to shoot, he should pay. He is the professional. Go Duke!! | |||
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Mike, I didn't even address the coffee colored springbok thing as it all seemed far too silly. A black springbok looks pretty much like coffee to me so how would you tell the difference unless they had a ear tag. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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 ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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That's absolutely crazy. At shooting distance on a misty morning, in dwindling light, or with the sun in your eyes I'd be surprised if anyone could tell the difference. To complicate things further, there must be variations within those two examples. . | |||
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These pix are nice but I don't think they are relevant as the color phase springbok I've seen do not have the bright white belly. They do show the difference in darkness of the coat in the same species though. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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http://www.coffeespringbok.co.za/index.html | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Who is held responsible for the result of pulling the trigger?It did not happen to m
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