I had a change of thinking in regards to Elephant hunting....took awhile to get to this point.

Talking with Ivan Carter, Johann Calitz, and JudgeG at the DSC show was all I needed to "push" me...took my wife all of 2 minutes of listening to them to say "were in"...did I mention I am one lucky guy!

Now just have to wait until June 2013!

Questions for you guys:

1) Have read and heard about Botswana closing hunting ie certain locations and species.... wondering if any of you guys have a track on what may happen with Elephant hunting?

2) My options for rifles include a 404 that Ralf Martini made that I plan on using, with North Fork FN (380 grain) solids at a nominal 2400 fps, as my primary rile. I assume this is more than adequate?

I also have a Browning Safari (FN long extractor) 458 win. mag. that pushes 500 grain Hornady DG solids 2170 fps as a back-up rifle.

What do you guys think of the 450 grain North Fork FN Solids vs 500 grain Hornady DG Solids out of the win. mag.?

Gave up Double Rifles a few years back due to rifle weight and eye sight.

I been thinking about getting another 458 Lott but my 458 win. mag. is a joy to carry (although at about 8 lbs. kicks like a mule). Given I am at 2170 fps, with my 458 win. mag., do any of you guys think another 100 fps out of the Lott is even worth thinking about? Asking about actual experience, I've read enough on the big bore forum

3) I have been gathering up books and videos on Elephant Hunting to further my education. I been thinking about buying Will's books and wondering...are they worth the price . Any reference material you can note that would be helpful?

4) First Elephant hunt....your thoughts on heart/lung vs brain shots for a first timer?

2013 is a long way off but I thought I would ask questions now as I plan

Thanks is advance for your help!

I'm doing my first jumbo hunt this year. I've reached out to several "in the know" and my instructions were to watch Ivan Carter on Elephant (aka Bod. on Ele.) and both of Buzz Charlton's videos. The videos are great for shot placement "self testing". I play them on my 65 inch set and pause the video from time to time to study and practice shot placement.

Will's books are good reference material too and I have both.

JJS congratulations on your upcoming bull ele hunt. The 450 solids would be more then adequate.
Should have:
Will books will give you insight and facts.

Both Ivan's and Buzz's DVD's on elephant hunting are a must. You will come away with knowledge of where the brain is from both videos.
I love the holographic sights with red dots. For upclose shooting nothting is better. Both eyes open and dot appears in front of shooting eye. Aimpoint and Trijicon

Mike

Mike

I wish you luck and a wonderful experience on your Ele hunt. The following answers are JMO. You didn't indicate if you would be hunting bull or cow, which would influence my answers.

Rifle Choice: Use the .458wm with 500 gr. bullets. The Hornady DGS will work just fine. I am a firm believer in "more is better" on Ele, as when things go wrong it can be quite serious. I use a Lott or 500NE but you don't need to move up given the improved ammo available today. You might consider adding a mercury recoil reducer to it; it will increase the weight slightly and decrease the felt recoil.

"Elephants and Elephant Guns" by Bill Stewart is well worth the reading. Of course, I find that he and I are of similar thoughts on most matters Elephant. I have both his books in my African library. The DVD by C-M is excellent and if you don't have it yet you must get it as you will watch it multiple times and learn much about Ele.

Shot Placement: As always, practice, practice, practice and then go out and practice some more. This is especially true when it comes to Ele. I was advised to take the heart/lung shot on my first Ele as it ensures a dead trophy within 200 yards or less and because I was using a .375H&H (I immediately sought a larger rifle after this hunt). I will be using the brain shot in September on a cow Ele in Zim. Your .458wm will give you a margin for error when taking the brain shot, something lesser calibers may not provide.

Hope this helps, and again, best of luck in 2013.

Sorry, I was not as specific as I should have been. We are planning on hunting with Johan Calitz Safaris in his CT2 concession, for a big bull elephant.

Buzz Charlton is one heck of a nice guy. I stopped by his booth and talked a bit...mentioned I was going to hunt Elephant for the first time and he gave me a copy of his video. Buzz is a first class guy! Hopefully one day I will get a chance to hunt with him.

Thanks,

jjs

Take the .458, 500 grains. If the .404 was all you had available that would be different, but with the choice the .458 is it. I know dead is dead, but when things aren't just right the .458 will get my vote over the .404. Those Bots bull are big, make a Zambezi or Selous bull look inmature!

I suspect you will get more penetration with you 404 load and more thump with your 458 Win load. Although you will have plenty of each with either caliber. I don't think that the extra 100 fps that you get from the Lott is worth the difference in cost and weight of rifle. The only way to learn the brain shot IMHO is to look at the internal make up of the skull and get experience doing it. I would suggest taking the H/L shot on your first elephant and then looking at the dissected skull.

465H&H

My suggestion is to book a hunt for a tuskless this year and next, just to get ready for the "big time" in Botswana.

Duh!... seems like I've done that (or a rations or management elephant) for the past 6 years or so... sometimes twice in one year. It is addictive.

As for me, I've killed elephant with a .450 N.E., a .470 N.E., a .458 Win Mag and a .416 Ruger (which is about the same as what you've loaded the .404 to... oh, yeah, I forgot, I've killed one with a .404, come to think of it. Only one (with a .470) has gone further than ten feet, and it was dead in 50 yards.

Personally, I think your plan is perfect. I'll be in camp with you, of course, and will be hunting with a new .404 from Bijou Creek (which should arrive this week!) with the NF loads your build for me (hint! hint!).

You shoot the Martini well, it's got the umph of a .416 Rigby (which has never been suggested to be inadequete) and I think you're quite capable of hitting a loaf of bread (be it brain or heart) every time at 25 yards.

Just know where the "spot" is as Gary Larson so well demonstrated and don't double tap any black rocks.

As to the .458 Win Mag for a second gun. I doubt any P.H. would complain about your set up as it already created, especially after they see you shoot. I wouldn't change a thing.

Congrats, jjs! You won't be sorry.

I am no expert on elephant hunting, although I have done my share of it and managed to kill a couple of decent bulls.

As you are doing, I prepared beforehand as much as I could.

So far as I have been able to tell, elephant hunting has been largely unaffected by the recent area closures in Botswana. Some areas have been affected, but most, and many excellent ones, have not. Calitz has terrific areas. Of course, no one can guarantee what the future may hold, and Ian Khama is no friend of hunters.

IMHO, I would say that your rifle battery is fine as it stands. I generally like heavy bullets, so I would probably go with a 400 grain solid in the .404 and a 500 grain solid (the Hornady DGS is a fine bullet) in the .458.

FN solids in bolt rifles make me nervous, as I have had problems with them - meaning I can't seem to get them to feed reliably. Make sure they will feed in your rifles.

I have adopted the Barnes Banded FN solids as a compromise, and have found that, with their slight ogive, they feed well, and penetrate as much as anyone could want.

As for the Lott, it's more powerful than the Win. Mag., and if you didn't already have a Win. Mag., and were going to start from scratch and buy a new rifle, I would say go for the Lott. More power is better than less.

But IMHO no one should throw away a perfectly good Win. Mag. that they already own and are happy with for the sake of moving up to a Lott.

I have found that Ron Thomson's book, Mahohboh, provides excellent preparation for an elephant hunter, and is generally informative about elephant besides. No knock on Will. I just have not yet read his book. I also like Buzz Charlton's video.

As for brain vs. heart-lung shots, if I were you, I would not rule anything out.

I would not make the decision until you are on the spot, and the time and opportunity have arrived.

I would not hesitate, if I were you, to take a side brain shot if the circumstances were good - the side brain shot is really not that tough, if the elephant is close and truly broadside. Frontal shots are tougher. I was lucky with one, but I only took it because the elephant was half asleep, and after waiting from 20 yards away for over an hour, we decided to take him as he stood. Having said that, as a general matter, if you wait long enough, the elephant will turn.

OTOH, if the presentation was not optimal for the side or frontal brain shot, I would just as soon go for the heart-lung shot.

Good luck!

I would agree with AfricanHunter, and pick the 458 WM over the 404 Jeffery.

Though the heart/lung shot is the surest way to kill an elephant, one should be just as prepared to take the brain shot. Sometimes it is the only shot possible. There are many reasons to brain shoot an elephant, and since you are ordering my books you can read about them there.

But you can USUALLY stop a charge with a heart/lung shot, but sometimes a brain shot (or attempted brain shot) is needed. I could write a whole book about that. Oops, I guess I did.

quote:

What do you guys think of the 450 grain North Fork FN Solids vs 500 grain Hornady DG Solids out of the win. mag.?

Nothing wrong with the .458 Win Mag. But...in my opinion and...especially with mono-metal solids on ele....450's are the optimal weight.

The NF FPS is a great bullet! Gives dependable deep straight-line penetration and can get 2250 fps easily out of WM with AA 2230.

Look in "Favorite Loads" { http://forums.accuratereloadin...401005431#5401005431 } for my load. Out of my old M 70...they will shoot 1 ragged hole at 100 off bench.

One my favorite rifles and loads!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I would agree with AfricanHunter, and pick the 458 WM over the 404 Jeffery.

Though the heart/lung shot is the surest way to kill an elephant, one should be just as prepared to take the brain shot. Sometimes it is the only shot possible. There are many reasons to brain shoot an elephant, and since you are ordering my books you can read about them there.

But you can USUALLY stop a charge with a heart/lung shot, but sometimes a brain shot (or attempted brain shot) is needed. I could write a whole book about that. Oops, I guess I did.

\Will,

Can you enlighten us on how you stop an elephant charge with a heart/lung shot?

465H&H

I was talking to Len Taylor of Chafuti at the Reno show, and commented that 80% of brain shots on elephant are missed. He replied that in his experience the percentage of misses is actually higher than that. If you want to fly 10,000 miles to have your ph kill your ele then by all means go for it. A bull elephant at 25 yards is a life changing experience and has a way of making an otherwise good shot miss.

jj,
Great meeting you at Johan's booth at DSC and congrats on booking your elephant hunt. I am jealous of you and Ernest... Botswana tuskers have always been a dream of mine.

I'll echo what the majority of others already have and that is to go with the .458. Bigger is better and even though I have taken elephant with the .404 if I were in your shoes and hunting the heaviest elephant on the continent I would have to go with the biggest cartridge you have. Take the .404 along and after a couple of approaches you may feel differently, but I doubt it.

And on a truly big elephant I would take the best shot offered me. While brain shots are dramatic, if I had an eighty or ninety pound bull in front of me I would take the sure shot every time.

Buena Suerte!

jjs,

Congratulations!!!! We were supposed to hunt in CT2 during 2012 but a cancellation got us moved to NG32 this past September. CT2 is supposed to be a fantastic area.

Johan Calitz' operation is outstanding from beginning to end.

As far as closing concessions, I believe NG32 is on the chopping block slated for September 2012.

The hunt ended September 15th and the elephant tusks and red lechwe were at the taxidermy by mid-December.

Good luck and enjoy the planning.

Good thread since I have yet to Ele hunt but will be with Johan Calitz in NG42 in May of 2012 for my first one.
I will be using my Ruger made .416R8igby with 400 gr solids. I will take the shot presented, expect to be within 20 yds or less and prefer a brain shot.
On my 2nd and 5th trip to Africa, John Greeff took advantage of the opportunity and walked me within a few yards of Ele several times. It was first intimidating and then exciting! I have been hoping for an opportunity ever since. Wanted to do it with John but my knees no longet allow me to kill one with my feet and NG42 seemed the best option for a shorter walk and a quite good bull.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I would agree with AfricanHunter, and pick the 458 WM over the 404 Jeffery.

Though the heart/lung shot is the surest way to kill an elephant, one should be just as prepared to take the brain shot. Sometimes it is the only shot possible. There are many reasons to brain shoot an elephant, and since you are ordering my books you can read about them there.

But you can USUALLY stop a charge with a heart/lung shot, but sometimes a brain shot (or attempted brain shot) is needed. I could write a whole book about that. Oops, I guess I did.

\Will,

Can you enlighten us on how you stop an elephant charge with a heart/lung shot?

465H&H

Now if you would break out your wallet and buy my new book, you could read all about it.

I wouldn't go so far as to bet anyone's life on it, but have stopped cold a full out charge with a heart shot.

Your desperate to sell books I see.

How do you get a bullet through the tunk and face of a charging elephant to reach the heart?

465H&H

EASY---have the Client and trackers run and the Ele focuses on them----then shoot from the side!
I still like John Greeff's advise when first I saw an Ele and I asked where do you shoot one of those big basturds and he replied with typical John humor, "Well, Tom, if the client is shooting poorly, I have him shoot it in the knee!"

Jim,

Glad to see you have booked an elephant hunt.

Hope to catch up with you soon.

Hartley

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Your desperate to sell books I see.

How do you get a bullet through the tunk and face of a charging elephant to reach the heart?

465H&H

The 400 gr. Speer AGS solid went dead center through the trunk and into it's heart. That's how!

JJS,

I have only shot one large elephant (cow) but the 450 grain 458 NF FP solid went over 60 inches, compared to about half that for the heavier monolithic RN's.



It also leaves a full diameter hole or larger through the skin, skull and brain.



I would not hesitate to use your 404 with the 380 grain which has similar SD.



Your 404 is third from right (after 470 and 458).

You had that rifle made for a reason. If your 458 kicks like a mule you wont shoot it as well, though you dont say how heavy the 404 is.

The 404 is so close to the 416 rigby that so many PH's use, I dont know why you wouldnt use it. Its good enough for them, and yours is better (more diameter) and its yours!

One advantage of the 458 of course is that most camps have access to 458 ammo and rifles while few have high velocity 404 lying around. But then the same can be said of the great 375, so I would take what you can carry and shoot best.

I would rather have a 450 grain NF FN than a 500 grain Hornady any day and have data both on elephant and realistic test mediums to prove it. If your rifle feeds them 100%.



Before and after elephant.

PS I assume both your rifles are controlled round feed and have similar (giant) peep sights?

I was surprised how close my PH, Myles got me to my elephant. You wont need or want a scope.

PPS I blame everyone here for making me go elephant hunting. Your wife is a keeper, hope she can say the same about you!

Andy

I joined the Elephant hunting club last year and already have my hunt for 2012 booked (I hunt with Nixon Dzingai in the Malapati). Based on my one and only elephant hunt, I would practice, pracice and practice some more before you go. I was all set for a heart/lung shot when the situation forced me into a frontal brain shot. I had been through Boddington's on Elepahnt and the venerable "The Perfect Shot" so many times that it was like clock-work. THe double rifle in 470 NE helped. The practice gave me the confidence to put the bullet right were it needed to be under what I will call VERY SRESSFUL conditions. But my PH never had to touch his triger.

I echo what everyone else has said. Go with the bigest gun to can comfortably shoot. A 375 will take al elepahnt down, a 404 is better and a 458 is better et. I shot my elephant with 50 gr Hornady DG bullets and the bullet was recovered. It performed perfectly.

I happen to have a 458 Lott and have also shot the 458 Win Mag. If I were buying a gun again I would go with he Lott - I think it shots nicer. But, if you already have a 458 Win Mag in the closet, you have enough gun and I would not think twice about it - but I would go with the 50 gr bullets. At 2170 fps you will have all the power you need for whatever shot you are presented with, including enough to stop a charge.

Hunting elephant is truly the greatest hunt on earth. I am obsessed and cannot wait to hunt them again. Everything else somehow seems well, not like elephant hunting.

Enjoy all the time you have between now and when you go to take in as much about elephant hunting as you can. Its a great club to be in and EVERY elephant hunt is worth a volumne on its own. I look forward to reading yours.

Best of luck and do not hesitate to PM if you have any particular questions.

Best regards,

Will,

It may have worked for you once but I certainly wouldn't bet my life on being able to repeat that shot.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
JJS, Your wife is a keeper, hope she can say the same about you!

Andy

A litte off topic but a nice story I will share. It is also very much condensed...

I met my wife in Graduate Business School in the 1980s. We dated through school and a bit after. We remained friends but due to time and distance, we sometimes went years without talking.

We were exchanging emails in early part of 2005 and she told me that she was in Memphis not long before on business. Of course I said why did you not let me know...silence!

I get an email several months later telling me she will be heading to Memphis, Nov. 7 or 8 and would I like to have dinner. I said sure but make it Nov. 7, heading to Alberta to go Deer Hunting on the 8th.

After a bit of back and forth and a few days later, I am heading to the Airport to pick her up...no way I was going to have her take a taxi...She was as I remebered her, even though it had been 18+ years since I had last seen her..Tall, beautiful and the body of a woman half her age...and that's only half of it, she is as smart and bright a person as I have ever met...

We got married last year...alot of story in between...She is a caring and loving person, who is engage in life, people and faith. We share these together, first and foremost as the friends we always were and remain.

My wife traveled to India last week on business for 10 days. I lost an Aunt this weekend that Carin only came to know well over the last 2 years. Carin asked me if she should cut her trip short and come back. There was no way I would ask her to travel half way around the world to make a funeral in two days and told her to finish up her business trip.

The next day I get an email notifying me that Carin will be back in the US tonight, a five hour lay over in NY, back in Memphis at noon tomorrow...She is one determined lady and has always been there for me, even when I did not realize it 20+ years ago...

Today, we are just making up for a little lost time and loving it! We have vivid memories of our times together many years ago and just keep adding to them each day!

Carin is far more than a "keeper"...

Back to the topic...

I really appreciate the input and comments.

Rifles are CF Mauser actions. Both were set-up for and feed FN Solids perfectly.

The 404 weighs in at 8.25 lbs and the win. mag. 8 lbs so both are great to carry and recoil is really not a problem.

I may have to do some work on the win. mag. sights as they are not as good as they could be made to be. The 404 is a Ralf Martini custom rifle that just balances and points perfectly...the open sights on 404 work just great.

I shot two Cape Buffalo in December with the 404 pushing 2400 fps and it worked just great. If needed I could easily get more velocity out of the 404...2500 fps, not sure if that would be really useful.

Folks:

I went to the wedding. The first time I ever saw Carin (she was coming down the isle, no less), I said "Holy S**t!" out loud, much to the chagrin of my sweetheart and much to the amusement of those around me.

She is a winner in every way.

Jim, you are a lucky guy, my friend.

My suggestion is to use the .404, as I said earlier, but how about installing a receiver sight on the Browning and, after sighting the gun, put the screw-in appeture away. The big ring will be perfect for a close shot.

I'm taking my .404 as primary and will bring a .458 Win Mag as a back up. That way, regardless of what you take as "first" gun, if you load some NF's for me for both rifles (That's a hint) we'll both have the same loads if one of us loses his ammo en route. See how smart I am.

One caveat. If H&H finishes my Royal Grade .450 N.E. before the trip I'll take it..... I wish!

Jim, take the .404

Most missed shots on anything, is due to the gun being too big.

A North Fork FN solid in the brain is still going to kill that ele deader than a missed .458 shot, and even a heart lung shot with the 404 will pile him up within 100 yards or less.

I think the "bigger is better" is a carry over from balck powder days, and I personally have no problem taking a client with even a .375 or 9,3 into an elephant, as long as he/ she can shoot.

And I must echo, Carin is a lovely lady.

Take care my friend.

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:
I had a change of thinking in regards to Elephant hunting....took awhile to get to this point.

Talking with Ivan Carter, Johann Calitz, and JudgeG at the DSC show was all I needed to "push" me...took my wife all of 2 minutes of listening to them to say "were in"...did I mention I am one lucky guy!

Now just have to wait until June 2013!

Questions for you guys:

1) Have read and heard about Botswana closing hunting ie certain locations and species.... wondering if any of you guys have a track on what may happen with Elephant hunting?

There are no guarantees but ele should be safe for a while anyway in Bots. President Khama has made no secret of the fact he wants hunting done in Bots but at the same time even he knows they have way too many eles. What he has done in the past is shut down lion in 07, reduced quotas on all else, leopard gone in 2010 and severely reduced quotas on everything else. I just heard there are NO gemsbok and eland which shuts down really any non ele concession that had a glimmer of hope of making it without cats.
He really is against hunting and is all for photo safaris (which he owns interest in).
The question is how long he will tolerate hunting of elephant. They bumped quota last year so for now and in the next couple years I would say you are safe. My prediction is if hunting does survive in Bots it will be for specialized ele hunting only…or maybe we can hope for his ouster and a change of leadership because he is definitely the problem.

One thing you might want to consider is to use the Woodleigh 450 grain solid in your 404. It will have more penetration than the NFFN 400 grain solid and also more thump. It will also outpenetrate the 458 win with 450 grain bullets. Although any on these bullets will have enough penetration for elephant.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
One thing you might want to consider is to use the Woodleigh 450 grain solid in your 404. It will have more penetration than the NFFN 400 grain solid and also more thump. It will also outpenetrate the 458 win with 450 grain bullets. Although any on these bullets will have enough penetration for elephant.

465H&H

Really? How fast can you get a 450 gr going out of a .404???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
One thing you might want to consider is to use the Woodleigh 450 grain solid in your 404. It will have more penetration than the NFFN 400 grain solid and also more thump. It will also outpenetrate the 458 win with 450 grain bullets. Although any on these bullets will have enough penetration for elephant.

465H&H

Really? How fast can you get a 450 gr going out of a .404???

Norma list their 404 Jeffery, PH 450 grain loaded ammo. at 2150 fps...not seen any reloading data on 450 grain bullets out of the 404 and have no idea how much velocity could be increased.

Anyone played with 450 grain bullets out of the 404 Jeffery?

465H&H

While not one to want and get into a pissing match about who knows more, I believe and know that your statement "It will have more penetration than the NFFN 400 grain solid and also more thump." is wrong. In all of our testing, even with the higher weighted Woodleigh, we out penetrate them. Plus, as you push the Woodleigh with speed (the beauty about the .404) it will not track straight. Total penetration means nothing, if it does not go straight. As far as thump, it is seen over and over a FN transplaces alot more shock onto its target than a round nose.

Just on a side note, we don't make a FN in .423 in 400gr weight only 380gr with a new 430 coming out soon.

Obviously, I am biased so I encourage everyone to test for themselves and make it as realistic/fair as possible. You will start to learn amazing things and will start to question what all the magazines print.

Woodleighs are excellent bullets but they work over a very very small velocity window and that is because of their design which is over 100years old. The old question is "Why not use better?" Nostalgia means nothing if you get hurt or killed.

Regards,
North Fork

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
465H&H

Plus, as you push the Woodleigh with speed (the beauty about the .404) it will not track straight. Total penetration means nothing, if it does not go straight. As far as thump, it is seen over and over a FN transplaces alot more shock onto its target than a round nose.

Just on a side note, we don't make a FN in .423 in 400gr weight only 380gr with a new 430 coming out soon.


Regards,
North Fork

Tell me about the 430 grain bullets ie what veloicty are you getting out of them, any testing yet in terms of penetration, etc.

Dang, I just got 4 boxes of the 380 grain FN Solids ordered at the DSC show from you.

jjs,

Don't worry you are in good hands with the 380gr FPS. It will do everything a 430 will. We are starting to build heavy for caliber for most of our large calibers. There are those that this is becoming a "religion". We figured we would not fight the trend and provide the best bullet that one can get in a heavy. While I cannot devulge any information yet, we expect an easy 2250 with 2400 attainable without exceeding pressures. With the long neck of the Jeffery cartridge, this extra weight doesn't encroach much on powder space, in fact, it almost looks perfect for this caliber.

More to be coming soon.

Just as a note, we now offer .375-350, .410-400, .416-430, .458-550, .510-600, and .505-600. The .510 and .505 are for FPS and CPS designs only. All other calibers have a matching soft point.

Regards,
North Fork

Jim:

You have to change my order to 430 grain North Forks.

quote:

There are those that this is becoming a "religion".

The once-failings (?) of the monometals is the light for caliber stuff.

Heavy for caliber seems to be rediscovered from time to time but the fact was there to begin with and never really changed. Heavier bullet, bigger knockdown.

quote:

There are those that this is becoming a "religion".

or "cult"

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
465H&H

While not one to want and get into a pissing match about who knows more, I believe and know that your statement "It will have more penetration than the NFFN 400 grain solid and also more thump." is wrong. In all of our testing, even with the higher weighted Woodleigh, we out penetrate them. Plus, as you push the Woodleigh with speed (the beauty about the .404) it will not track straight. Total penetration means nothing, if it does not go straight. As far as thump, it is seen over and over a FN transplaces alot more shock onto its target than a round nose.

Just on a side note, we don't make a FN in .423 in 400gr weight only 380gr with a new 430 coming out soon.

Obviously, I am biased so I encourage everyone to test for themselves and make it as realistic/fair as possible. You will start to learn amazing things and will start to question what all the magazines print.

Woodleighs are excellent bullets but they work over a very very small velocity window and that is because of their design which is over 100years old. The old question is "Why not use better?" Nostalgia means nothing if you get hurt or killed.

Regards,
North Fork

North Fork,

PM sent.

465H&H

quote:

) My options for rifles include a 404 that Ralf Martini made that I plan on using, with North Fork FN (380 grain) solids at a nominal 2400 fps, as my primary rile. I assume this is more than adequate?

I also have a Browning Safari (FN long extractor) 458 win. mag. that pushes 500 grain Hornady DG solids 2170 fps as a back-up rifle.

What do you guys think of the 450 grain North Fork FN Solids vs 500 grain Hornady DG Solids out of the win. mag.?

404 and 380 North Fork will be fine. 458 and 450 North Fork much better choice than the Hornady.

Andy and Ledvm, are spot on correct! Listen to them.

Your 458 and the 450 North Fork are top choice, you don't have to consider a Lott if you don't have one now!

quote:

First Elephant hunt....your thoughts on heart/lung vs brain shots for a first timer?

You take the shot that presents itself, and the one YOU have confidence in!!! Nothing else matters!


Michael