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North Fork, You needn't worry about starting a pissing match. I think that most of us here are trying to find out exactly how different types of solid bullets behave in test mediums and how that relates to actual performance in buff and elephants. For the most part, participants in these discussions handle their input in a gentlemanly and respectful manner. I have absolutely no experience in using solids in a test media. I count on the work Michael and bullet companies such as NF report and assume that they are accurate. I have taken your advise and tested for my self in elephants and buffalo. What I do have experience with is how solid bullets perform in in those species. I have now shot over 100 RN steel jacketed solids into Buff and elephants and for the last two years I have used FN solids to take eight elephants which totaled an additional 19 FN bullets. None of these have been bullets into a dead animal for test purposes but only initial, follow up or insurance shots. I am a retired wildlife research biologist so I have very good observational techniques, knowledge of animal anatomy and the desire to report factually what I have observed. I will limit my discussion to elephant as I have not taken any buff with FN bullets to compare to. I have taken multiple elephants with the following calibers and bullets. 465 Nitro, 480 grain Woodleigh RN solid and 480 grain NFFN solid. 470 Nitro, 500 grain Woodleigh RN solid, 500 grain Woodleigh 500 grain Hydro, 500 grain CEB #13. 458 Lott, 550 grain Woodleigh RN solid. 458 Winchester, 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solid and 500 grain Hornady DGS. All of these were hand loads chronoed at 2,150 fps. The TB was a factory load and I do not know the velocity. Here is an abbreviated report on the results. The frontal brain shot is actually the one shot that allows maximum penetration for head shots. Here is what you can expect from these bullets and calibers on a centrally placed frontal head shot. 465 or 470 Woodleigh RN solids. Bullets were found in the first third of neck after penetrating brain. 458 DGS solids. Found at the front of the shoulder bone after penetrating head and length of neck. 465 NFFN solid and 470 Woodleigh Hydro, found bullets in the loin meat behind front shoulder after penetrating head and neck. 458 Lott 550 grain RN solid, bullets found in stomach contents after penetrating, head, neck, chest and some unknown amount of stomach contents. Quartering frontal head shots. This angle of head shot seems to provide the most resistance to bullets. All of the bullets listed above penetrated through the brain and stopped in the occipital bones in the off side of the head except for the 550 grain Woodleigh It exited in all three cases. Finishing shots into top of head. These bullets should exit under jaw or in first part of underside of neck. The following bullets did not exit. 465 Woodleigh RN solid and NFFN solid. 470 Woodleigh RN solid and CEB #13. 458 Win TBSS and Hornady DGS. 458 Lott 550 grain RN solid, exited in all five cases tried. Heart lung shots. 465 and 470 Woodleigh RN solids. 11 trials and none exited. 465 NFFN. Two tried both exited. 458 Winchester Hornady DGS. Two tried and both exited. One of these killed a second elephant behind the first. In over 100 RN solids used on elephants and buffalo I never saw anything but straight line penetration on elephants and also the same on buffalo when using the old Hornady RN steel jacketed solids. JPK who use to post here used a somewhat lower number of RN steel jacketed solids on elephants and buff and reported the same straight line penetration as I observed. For some unknown reason RN solids veer badly in the commonly used test media but not in animals. At least if it does occur it is an extremely rare occurrence. I assume the 450 grain .423 Woodleigh solid will perform similarly to what I have seen in the 550 grain .458. I grant that I have not used the NFFN 400 grain or 380 grain .423 bullets on game. I grant that my assumption may be wrong but it is based on an educated guess. If you wish to discuss my results in more detail, you have my phone number. 465H&H | |||
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Good work,465H&H! I am glad I chose the 550 Woodleigh RN solid to have my custom rifle lott regulated with. | |||
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I have yet to see a bad report on a North Fork Flat nose solid.  I have seen a multitude on Woodleighs.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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That may be because there have been relatively few NFFN solids used on game compared to Woodleighs. 465H&H | |||
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You are correct! But...it could be that they (NF's) are damn good! I know it is possible for a Woodleigh to fail. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I think one reason my 465 grain monolithic RN 458's did poorly was that I was shooting them at a few paces away from elephant and they were going 2500 fps. The FN does not mind extra velocity and actually increases penetration with extra velocity as you would hope and expect a bullet to do. The RN whether FMJ or monometal, is less likely to upset at lower (19th century) velocity. 465 and many others, have certainly demonstrated the Woodleighs handle 2000-2150 fps (most of the time). For those of us who like a bit more velocity because we like Soft Points that expand alot, or plan on using our elephant gun for PG and buff, then the FN/and bonded NF SP are hard to beat. 64 inches as I recall with the 450 grain NF-FN at 2550 fps and 33-39 inches with the 465 grain RN at 2500 fps. My only other comment is to practice with what you hunt with. Dont count on a magic bullet you horde for hunting. Make sure your bolt gun is reliable with your FN or RN using full power loads. Use same brass, powder and primer for practice. Andy | |||
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Albeit...he chose to shoot NF's mostly. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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You should qualify as stating "handle 2150 fps sometimes". There are reports of them failing at these vels. too. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Ledvm You know, why take a chance on a bullet that has the possibility of failure. Yes, by all means, at some point or other all round nose bullets will fail, the nose profile dictates this. Sooner or later, it's not if, it's when. A proper designed flat nose is "less likely" to fail, you are more likely to succeed with a proper nose profile/meplat size flat nose solid, and the thing about it is, a flat nose solid does not cost anymore than a round nose fmj? Why bother? No my man, give me something I will have a more likely chance to succeed on my mission, for this, it's a North Fork or CEB BBW#13 Solid! Why chance it? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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When the word "fail" comes up, does this include feeding trouble? | |||
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NO thats rifle failure and addressable before the hunt SSR | |||
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But prefered RN steel jacketed solids for head shots on elephants. He had a FN monometal veer off course on a head shot. It isn't just RN steel jacketed solid that are known to fail. Also would would you reference 3 or 4 of those RN steel jacketed solid failures on elephant or buff. You don't need to try to find the multitude. Three or four will do. 465H&H | |||
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My words were Wooleigh failures. We have gone through this before and dredged up all the old references. How many times are we gonna do it. The last was less than a year ago. As far as JPK goes...maybe he will chime in but it was he who got me started on NF's. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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For the record...if I did not have good monoliths like NFs...I would shoot steel jacketed lead core bullets for ele. But...besides being good on game...NF FPS bullets are extremely accurate! And the driving band design makes it easy to achieve decent velocities with out top end powder charges. To me...they are a good tool! But as you say Woodleighs have killed lots of ele! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...=643101959#643101959 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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 Stolen from Gerard od GS Custom. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Thanks ledvm for reminding us, these are some good examples of what can happen, and of course has happened many times. I recall somewhere about someone using a woodleigh on rear shots on a buffalo and it turning off course and exiting the top of the back, or maybe it was the side, don't recall exactly, but I think it was a 500 Jeffery! They turn, they veer, they tumble, the bend, the break and so on and so forth! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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They can but FN monos can do the same. 465H&H | |||
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Ganyana and I have posted pictures here of FN monos that have squashed noses, noses bent behind the tip, broken in half and bent into a V shape. Any bullet can deform it all depends upon what it hits and how fast it is going when does hit. 465H&H | |||
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This is probably the best reason to use North Forks.  A triad that really does work. PS I do not have pictures of either one on photobucket so cant upload, but I do have a 410 grain 416 Woodleigh FMJ RN recovered from my buffalo that is pretty well bent. Much more so than the 470 shown above. My PH also showed me one from an elephants ear that was turned over and expanded from the base. However this was a very close range shot and did stop the elephant who was after his tracker. Andy | |||
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Oh by all means all flat nose are NOT CREATED EQUAL! You are 100% spot on, a FN can veer and bend and deform. No doubt about it. There are SOME FN on the market right now that are not nearly as good as any RN! One that comes to mind is the 9.3 Barnes banded, it has something along the lines of a 45-47% meplat, and it is not stable with that size meplat. Another one that is trying, but not quite there is the Hornady DGS--a little short on meplat, running as I recall 55%-60% meplat--we need to be at 65% for terminal stability in a FN. The Hornady is also short on the heavy construction as well. Copper Solids can deform as well, depending on the hardness level, and what you are trying to shoot through. Side brain or even direct frontal brain, with what they call a "half-hard" copper solid will do just fine, with very little or no deformation, and certainly on any body shots. I don't believe in deformation of a true solid meant for penetration. I am a great fan of North Fork, have plenty of North Forks and will use North Forks in the field. I am done with Barnes and their abandonment of quality and performance going to a round nose again, but a proper brass solid, such as the BBW #13 is a very tough bullet to contend with. With it's nose profile, it's 67% meplat and brass, it put's performance in a new category. It is my belief that some of our very best manufacturers of solids might also be coming out with a new brass bullet in the near future, something that I think will enhance our choices greatly. Just as all round nose bullets are not created equal, the same holds true for the Flat nose solids as well! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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But as NF Mike pointed out in that discussion...there weren't NO NF's present! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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This | |||
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North Fork, Appreciate the responce. I would be very interested in the 430 grain .423 (404 Jeffery) FN Solids. Please let us know when available, results of your testing, and loading data ....Best, jjs | |||
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I hope no one thinks that I have anything but respect for NFFN solids.I have used them and they performed very well, in fact I recommended them in an article in African Hunter magazine. They are less likely to have nose deformation that GS Custom whose bullets are designed to mushroom slightly at higher velocities. Similar to NF are the discontinued Bridger bullets, Hornady DGS and the CEB solid. One problem that hasn't been covered with any RN steel jacketed solid is that they are very dependent on proper tempering of the steel jacket. Too hard and thay are brittle and can shatter and too soft and the rupture or bend. Exacting quality control is a must with them. 465H&H | |||
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Nothing against NF as I had excellent peenetration the one time I used them, but... It seems a little presumptuous for NF to be lecturing guys that have used them as opposed to NF themselves who have little, if any, experience with them, especially on eles. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter. And hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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seems thread ran away a bit - but back to the original request - Most has been stated before so excuse any repitition : The 400 calibres are from my experience the best minimum calibre and actualy probably the best - the .416 remington and .416 rigby are awesome rounds - I use a .500 and or .500 x .416 . The .458 Lott is a real jumbo buster as well. Any brain shot is second to a heart lung zone shot - brain shots make up 2 great stories the first starts with - it dropped like it was pole axed - the second starts - we watched the dust settle where there was once a 80 pound bull ..... If you go for the brain ensure you have a back up process with the PH or a second check for another bull - just in case. Heart lungs are allmost allways successfull - is that an oxymoron . Botswana - is open to elephant hunting till end 2012 , the Government has assured current lease holders , they have also consistently informed the hunting and tourism industry in open forums that elephant hunting will continue - the where how and when are currently under negotiation / discussion. What else can we do with over 158 000 elelphant when the countries maximum carrying capacity was pegged at 50 000. Not that trophy hunting is a population management tool , but in order for us to continue to sell stock piles of ivory I assume we need to have a elephant management strategy in place which should include utilization on a sustainable basis. Hunting on private land ( game ranches ) is not affected in any way - and leopard hunting is still open on ranch hunts. Ghanzi and Tuli having the highest quota allocated by region. Plains game quota have been substantialy cut and nobody knows the reason or whether it is a short term program. Buffalo quotas which were increased in 2010 have been halved for 2011 and there is no info for the 2012 quota. Most outfitters are filling up for the 2012 season and good chance most of the prime dates have allready gone for 2012 elephant hunting so I strongly recommend any hunter who want to be assured of a Botswana Big Tusker needs to get in touch with one of the outfitters soon to secure 2012 dates. Happy hunting and looking for another oustanding elephant hunting year here in Big Tusker land of Botswana. Graeme Pollock | |||
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