I was watching Versus the other night and saw a PH shoot a charging bull elephant with a .577 NE. He missed the brain with the first shot but the big gun did manage to turn the bull. A second shot to the head put him down for good. It got me to thinking, what do you think is the minimum caliber that will turn an elephant if the brain is missed? Will a .375 do it? How about a 450/400, .416 Rigby, .500/.416, or a .404 or do you have to move up to cartridges in the .450 class to turn a determined charge?

Dave

First let me say I'm not an elephant hunter, haveing fired only two shots into the heart lung area of my friend's bull when he botched the frontal brain shot. He was shooting a 458 win mag bolt rifle, with factory ammo. The shot missed the brain, but turned the bull. As he turned I, and the PH both stuck two in the H/L area as he turned. Our shots would have killed the bull, but they weren't needed, because my friend put his second shot in the brain from quartering away behind the head shot, dropping the bull in a cloud of red dust!

I have seen several ele shot for frontal brain shots, and the ones that missed the brain always turned, or knocked out, the eles. These ranged in calibers 375 H&H up to and including 577NE.

It is my belief that any good slap in the face, from any of the .450s up,will most times turn a chargeing ele. However, I wouldn't take that as an absolute, and be ready to slap him again if it didn't!

Given a determined charge and the fact that I have to miss. I would want one of these...

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Given a determined charge and the fact that I have to miss. I would want one of these...

That little gun needs another barrel, so you can give him a follow-up shot!

It is all a matter of percentages. The bigger the caliber and the heavier the bullet, the more likely the elephant will be turned. I have seen a 375 turn a charge and a 450/400 knock another cow in charge down.

465H&H

I know that a 450/400 will turn a determined Elephant charge. I still like the 577 better .

Els,

I think you know that a 450/400 turned one particular determined elephant charge, it might not turn the next. That is why it is a game pf probabilities, your odds getting better as bore and bullet weight increase, assuming adequate velocity.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Given a determined charge and the fact that I have to miss. I would want one of these...

That little gun needs another barrel, so you can give him a follow-up shot!

Like this one. Only I think it needs to be side by side for proper use in Africa.

In a double rifle for stopping Dumbo - MacD prefers the superior engineering and egonomics of the Blaser S2 Safari chambered in 45-70...

I concur given his extensive field experience...

I wouldn't count on a .375 ever turning a charge of an Ele or Buff, and I have some experience with both. I don't like the .375 and strongly prefer the .416, but that is not a stopping caliber either, IMO, although I have discouraged Buff charges with it. In my judgement a .470NE/ .458Lott are stopping cartridges. Stopping meaning they are capable of missing the brain and still ending the charge by either knocking the animal down briefly or by turning it away from the hunting party. However, there are no guarantees of anything in Africa, in my experience. I have no knowledge of the .450NE class cartridges.

John Taylor disguised between turning and knocking out, but the closer you get to knocking out the better in getting them to turn on a flubbed brain shot.

And you don't necessarily have to try to brain them to successfully turn them.

It mostly depends on how determined the charge is and how much damage or shock is done on the shot regardless of where it is placed.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
In a double rifle for stopping Dumbo - MacD prefers the superior engineering and egonomics of the Blaser S2 Safari chambered in 45-70...

I concur given his extensive field experience...

quote:

I have no knowledge of the .450NE class cartridges.

450NE ~= 470NE. The 470 shoots a 500gr bullet at a nominal 2125fps, but in reality most vintage rifles run 2025fps to 2075fps, the 450NE's shoot 480gr bullets at nominal 2150-2175fps. But 450NE's rifles often shoot close to the nominal velocities. (The 470 nominal velocity was acheived with a 31" barrel while the 450NE's with 28" barrels, and many 450NE rifles have 26" or 28" barrels.)

JPK

7 x 57....Just ask Bell!!!

JW out

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
In a double rifle for stopping Dumbo - MacD prefers the superior engineering and egonomics of the Blaser S2 Safari chambered in 45-70...

I concur given his extensive field experience...

You're wrong, my first choice would be a Marlin Guide gun chambered for 45-70, with Garrett ammo! Of course my second choice would be the Blaser S2, Being a complete novice, these are the choices that I found from reading Field & Stream magazine, the golden standard of AFRICAN SAFARI HUNTING!

Dave,

My 450 Dakota turned a large cow elephant 180 degrees around but she stayed on her feet.

Shot to hip followed, then brain and spine.

I am not sure I would count on it for a bull.

In my case proper sights (peep sight rather than scope) would have been more inmportant.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
Dave,

My 450 Dakota turned a large cow elephant 180 degrees around but she stayed on her feet.

Shot to hip followed, then brain and spine.

I am not sure I would count on it for a bull.

In my case proper sights (peep sight rather than scope) would have been more inmportant.

Andy

For the follow-up shots in this case which would you prefer in this particular instance. The bolt rifle or a double?

It really makes no difference, since the Ele was going away from the shooter. Depending upon the bush you're in, it's likely you'd get no more than 2 or 3 going away shots anyway. Bolt gun would be quicker for the third shot, but after that it's a matter of skill with the rifle in hand.

If the bush is thick, you'll get in the going away second shot with a double when you might not with a bolt. If the bush or terrain offer more visiblity, you might get in a third shot on the departing ele with a bolt when you might not with a double.

But when the ele is close and coming, you'll get two with a double when you wouldn't with a bolt.

So, the double offers the very rapid two shots to stop or put down the bull. I think that is an advantage in any situation, but more of an advantage in thicker bush. And I favor two coming to save your bacon, or someone else's over three departing.

JPK

I think that with a 458 Lott should be enough to stop the loading of an elephant, but I trust my life to something like 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs.

A greeting,

Oscar.

It is amazing the number of people who believe all this bullshit!

Why are we talking about the calibers?

Why are we not talking about the individual elephants?

One elephant my be turned by a miss with a 308 Winchester.

Another one might continue his charge even if missed by a 700 NE.

Of course, those who have that engrained wive's tales of "bigger is better" as glorified in Taylr's books, won't understand this.

hence the armor above

quote:

"bigger is better"

Bigger is more amusing...

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It is amazing the number of people who believe all this bullshit!

Why are we talking about the calibers?

Why are we not talking about the individual elephants?

One elephant my be turned by a miss with a 308 Winchester.

Another one might continue his charge even if missed by a 700 NE.

Of course, those who have that engrained wive's tales of "bigger is better" as glorified in Taylr's books, won't understand this.

Saeed!

The history and experience of countless African PHs and professional ivory hunters can hardly be called bullshit. We can control what caliber we carry but we have ittle control over what the elephant does.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
7 x 57....Just ask Bell!!!

JW out

He's still dead, isn't he??

Saeed-

Well, since I can't pick and choose which Ele and Buff decide to charge me, I guess the best I can do is choose the caliber I go armed with when hunting them.

And learning from others experience and mistakes is the key to success in life, as it prevents the repetition of erroneous behavior and may well lead to survivability.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It is amazing the number of people who believe all this bullshit!

Why are we talking about the calibers?

Why are we not talking about the individual elephants?

One elephant my be turned by a miss with a 308 Winchester.

Another one might continue his charge even if missed by a 700 NE.

Of course, those who have that engrained wive's tales of "bigger is better" as glorified in Taylr's books, won't understand this.

Saeed!

The history and experience of countless African PHs and professional ivory hunters can hardly be called bullshit. We can control what caliber we carry but we have ittle control over what the elephant does.

465H&H

Spot on 465H&H.

Just curious Saeed, what calibre does your back up PH use on your African hunts?

Taylor??? What the hell would he know about hunting elephant

As for me, if I am going to be standing less than 20 yards from an elephant that may or may not charge, I will error on the side that bigger is better thank you very much. If someone else would like to do so with a caliber like a 7x57, more power to them . . . and their PH. For me, the .500 NE is just about perfect in such a situation.

Saeed, I beg to differ.

I am certainly no expert, but I have concluded, based on (limited) personal experience, extensive reading of dangerous game hunting literature (not only Taylor, but certainly Taylor), and discussions with many knowledgeable and experienced professionals, that "bigger" is definitely better - especially, but not only, for elephant.

This conclusion assumes, of course, that one is able to shoot "bigger" well and accurately enough to achieve the intended result.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Given a determined charge and the fact that I have to miss. I would want one of these...

Or a 3"/50, or a 90mm

Isn't TYPE of bullet more important in "Turning" or "Bad shot" situations than 20 or 30 thou in diameter?

577 750 grain flat nose monometal SH Super Precision brass Macifej solid bolt action 3 down one in the pipe for me please...

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It is amazing the number of people who believe all this bullshit!

Why are we talking about the calibers?

Why are we not talking about the individual elephants?

One elephant my be turned by a miss with a 308 Winchester.

Another one might continue his charge even if missed by a 700 NE.

Of course, those who have that engrained wive's tales of "bigger is better" as glorified in Taylr's books, won't understand this.

Saeed!

The history and experience of countless African PHs and professional ivory hunters can hardly be called bullshit. We can control what caliber we carry but we have ittle control over what the elephant does.

465H&H

Spot on 465H&H.

Just curious Saeed, what calibre does your back up PH use on your African hunts?

Taylor??? What the hell would he know about hunting elephant

Count me in here and with those others who believe in history and reality.

Denying more than a century of history, reality, is a great example of the "refusal to learn" crowd's chorus.

This is up there with the, "If only you shoot prefectly all the time," chorus.

No one can choose the elephant they face, no one will shoot perfectly all of the time...

Geez, do some close range, thick bush elephant hunting, eh? And then report back.

JPK

It seems this forum has many members that would prefer to disrespect the experience of someone like Saeed who has more experience than many of you all put together. You rave about history and reality. Do you take into account the improved projectiles and powders of today when you deny his experience? History/reality involves many lesser quality components that do not compare with today's components. Larger was definitely better in those days. What of today? Do we need the same calibers/projectile weights today to attain the same penetration/knock down power? What about the accuracy capabilities of yesterday's guns compared with today's guns. Have there been any improvements? You all tell me and then get right back to dissing Saeed. After all, he's a nimrod, right!?

If you want current experience, try this on for size:

"The survey of PH's in Boddington's new book states the following PH recommendations for all thick skinned game in any cirumstance:

Caliber..................................# Respondents

.470NE ............................... 20
.416 Rem., Rigby, Wby........ 16
.458 Lott ............................14
.458 Win Mag ......................10
.375 H&H, Wby, Ruger..........10
.500 Jeffrey...........................8
.500-3" NE...........................8
.450 3 1/4" NE ...................5
.505 Gibbs ........................ 4
.450 Dakota ........................2
.475 #2 J ............................1
.450 Rigby.............................1
.450 Ackely .........................1
.450 #2 ..............................1
.425 WR ..............................1

..."

Medium bores, ( 375's, like Saeed's) = 10

Large medium bores, (408-425) = 17

Big bores, (.458" plus) = 75

Ph's who responded to Bodington.

I'm more than willing to bet that those hunters who choose large bore rifles over medium bore rifles, AND LIMITED TO THOSE WHO HAVE POSTED ON THIS THREAD, have aggregate experience equal to at least a multiple of four times that of Saeed's, more so when hunting elephants in thick bush is the consideration.

BTW, you ought to read the definition of "Nimrod."

JPK

Tens of thousands of elephant were efficiently collected with smooth bore front loaders, lead round ball, and powder of dubious potency...

Shot for shot - I'd prefer an 8-bore cap lock over a .375 ...

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
It seems this forum has many members that would prefer to disrespect the experience of someone like Saeed who has more experience than many of you all put together. You rave about history and reality. Do you take into account the improved projectiles and powders of today when you deny his experience? History/reality involves many lesser quality components that do not compare with today's components. Larger was definitely better in those days. What of today? Do we need the same calibers/projectile weights today to attain the same penetration/knock down power? What about the accuracy capabilities of yesterday's guns compared with today's guns. Have there been any improvements? You all tell me and then get right back to dissing Saeed. After all, he's a nimrod, right!?

As I said in a post above, ask Saeed what his backup PH uses.

JPK has posted some compelling facts on what modern day profesionals prefer, doesn't seem like their way of thinking has changed much from the old timers, who apparently knew fuck all.

By the way there are no doubt bugger all posters on this forum who have had enough experience with charging ele to have an opinion.

Makes sense to listen to, or read about those who have. That's the path I choose.

I have seen video's where ph's turn ellies by shouting at them

I have had good luck with my 500 double and do not not see why you would bother with a lesser rifle.

Things were so good in the days of the Ivory Hunters that the average life expectancy was two years - Ele, disease, snakes, etc. At one time over 400 white hunters/explorers were missing and unheard from, somewhere in Africa; some of them still are. So maybe there is some benefit to learning from those who survived. Ya think?

Gentlemen,

Each of us is free to do what he feels is right of course.

I have probably read more books about hunting in Africa, especially old books, than some of you. And I am sorry to say that many of them are full of many misconceptions about ballistics and their effects on animals.

Let us take Taylors knockdown for example.

Sure, larger calibers throwing heavier bullets do have more energy than smaller calibers with lighter bullets.

But, ENERGY ALONE does NOT Kill!

DAMAGE to VITAL ORGANS that kills.

And from what I have seen, on elephants and other animals.

Larger is NOT always better.

The PHs I have hunted with have used a 460 Weatherby, a 416 Weatherby, a 450 Ackley and 2 have used a 375 H&H.

Don't take what is written as fact.

I remember Jeff Cooper, I am sure many of you have heard of him - I have heard a number of posters believe EVERYTHING he wrote!

He said one is going to get charged by 1 buffalo in 10 he hunts.

That, of course, is one of those rather amusing rants of someone who might have penned something while he was intoxicated with either something from a bottle, or his own self importance.

Ultimately, please go ahead and use whatever YOU think is a suitable caliber,and make sure you put that bullet in RIGHT place.

For me, I will stick with my 375/404 for all my hunting, as I have been doing for so many years.