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An Elephant On LSD!
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The pachyderm on a high

Tusko the elephant led a peaceful life at the Oklahoma City Zoo. So, on the morning of Friday 3 August 1962, he could hardly have foreseen that he was about to become the first elephant ever to be given LSD.

The experiment was the brainchild of two doctors at the University of Oklahoma School of Medicine, Louis Jolyon West and Chester M Pierce, and Warren Thomas, director of the zoo, who wanted to learn more about LSD's pharmacological properties.

LSD is one of the most potent drugs known to medical science. A mere 25 micrograms – less than the weight of a grain of sand – can send a person tripping for half a day. But the researchers figured that an elephant would need more than a person and they didn't want to risk giving too little. They upped the dose to 297 milligrams, about 3,000 times the level of a human dose.

At 8am, Thomas fired a cartridge syringe into Tusko's rump. Tusko trumpeted loudly and began running around his pen. Then he started to lose control of his movements, and toppled over. His eyeballs rolled upward. He started twitching. His tongue turned blue.

The researchers administered 2,800 milligrams of an antipsychotic, which relieved the violence of the seizures a little. Eighty minutes later, Tusko was still lying panting on the ground. Desperate, the researchers injected a barbiturate, but it didn't help. A few minutes later, Tusko died.

What had happened? Had the LSD concentrated somewhere in Tusko's body, increasing its toxicity? Were elephants allergic to LSD? The researchers had no clue. An autopsy determined that Tusko died from asphyxiation – his throat muscles had swollen, preventing him from breathing. But why his throat muscles had done this, the researchers didn't know. In an article published a few months later in Science, they simply noted: "It appears that the elephant is highly sensitive to the effects of LSD."


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I'll stick to beer.


 
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Seems like this should prove that LSD is very dangerous accross the board.

But why would anyone give LSD to an elephant in the first place. And why would they give a dosage 3,000 times a human dose without testing lower dosages first. Even thinking about humans at 100 lbs. (low) and elephants at 15,000 lbs. (high) that's at least a double dose on a pound for pound basis. Is my math wrong? I guess you could push the human weight to 200 lbs. and leave the elephant weight at 15,000 and get an equivalent pound for pound dose, but I'm sure this elephant didn't weigh 15,000 lbs. and most LSD users probably dont' weigh 200 lbs.

And, why on earth would any sane individual give a several ton animal an hallucinogen? Not surprising the elephant died in the process. Too bad the engineers of this "experiment" didn't.

Sad for the elephant.

Saeed, where do you find this stuff?
 
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I think it was in the TIMES newspaper. They had a an article on crazy experiments.


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Is there an article about what Walter took before he belted on the sausage and became the witch doctor? Roll Eyes


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quote:
Originally posted by JudgeG:
Is there an article about what Walter took before he belted on the sausage and became the witch doctor? Roll Eyes


Oh c'mon your honor, there's no way that can be so casually mentioned without the whole story! nilly
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:

The experiment was the brainchild of two doctors at the University of Oklahoma School of Medicine, Louis Jolyon West and Chester M Pierce, and Warren Thomas, director of the zoo, who wanted to learn more about LSD's pharmacological properties.

... they simply noted: "It appears that the elephant is highly sensitive to the effects of LSD."


This experimental "accident" was so crazy it is funny. Better to laugh than cry. Right?

Walter is to blame for this too.

I have it from an anonymous source that Dr. Louis Jollyon West (yes, that is the proper spelling of the name typo-ed above) was a PhD physiologist doing research and teaching first-year medical students at the University of Oklahoma School of Medicine, when this black comedy occurred.

"Professor Jolly" hailed from Argentina and spoke English with a German accent. His peers and students also called him "The Joker" due to his frequent comedic displays when botching demonstrations and lectures in the "dog lab" and classroom.

Professor "Jolly The Joker" West had a short tenure in academia.

The disastrous "accidental" death of the elephant occurred during a research project he was masterminding.

"Professor Jolly" vanished from the U of O faculty days after the mishap. Authorities beleive he fled the country, laughed out of his academic career.
My anonymous source says he bore an amazing physical resemblance to Walter. His modus operandi is certainly similar:
Bad comedy by accident!

We assume that Walter is the Mad Scientist, Dr. Louis Jollyon West.
He has a new identity and is living in UAE. He continues to get his "jollyon" by experimenting in self mutilation humor, as atonement for what he did to the innocent elephant.

Saeed, you must consider whether you are a co-dependent and enabler in Walter's madness.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
The experiment was the brainchild of two doctors at the University of Oklahoma School of Medicine


That right there is the PROBLEM!!!!!!!!

Why an OU professor would be doing experiments on animals is a wonder. They should have stuck to what they think they know like law, dope smoking, gay pride parades or somthing similar. An OU grad could F-UP a steel ball with a rubber mallet.

By the way, I'm an Oklahoma State Grad!!!!! Go POKES!!!!!!


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Sounds like the elephant had an anaphylactic reaction.
 
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That Doctor should have been charged with animal cruelty. Animals all react differently to drugs and you can't guess what a dosage should be without starting with a very small dose and working up. As an example. One of the most common drugs to anesthzize animals is called M-99. We used 4 mg. or 4cc of a solution of 1 mg/cc for elk and big horn sheep. When I got to Zim a Ranger there told me that they also used 4 mg for elephant and rhino. When we would load darts we had to wear rubber gloves and be extremely cautious as, if one spilled drop on a cut or a bleeding hang nail it could kill you in a matter of minutes. We also had another person standing by with the antedote loaded and ready to go if an accident happened. I always had the biologist who worked for me load the darts. Big Grin

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No, better than that. They should have administered it to the fool who "thought" up the experiment, since he must have been on the stuff at the time that he proposed it.
 
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HI: I think the people that did this should at least loose there jobs if not charged for cruelty a good broken nose would help smarten them up. Dan
 
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Sounds like "Dr. West" or did he pronounce it "Vest" was likely a Nazi fugitive to start with. Lets see, an Argentinian Doctor named West, with a German accent, whose in the States in 1960, who fled the country after the stuff hit the fan, and apparently has never been heard from since. Maybe I'm just imagining stuff.
 
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As I recall, when a person is allergic to a bee sting, they may experience an anaphyllactic reaction. This allergic response to a foreign toxin will cause the throat to swell and shut down the air movement. The treatment is epinephrine. This suggests the possibility that the researchers may have given the wrong antidote.


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I'm glad they finally solved that age old question. Roll Eyes


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Guys, this happened in 1962.

Undoubtedly the folks thought they were doing Ol' Tusko a favor- after all, our college kids were PAYING for this stuff.

Who knows why they thought it was good?

However, a Veterinary anesthetic (Ketamine) is a known hallucinogen in people- although its one of the few almost instantaneous ones out there, and as such has a VERY limited human use.
 
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I don't even know what the subject is but lets kill all the son-a-bitches. Smiler


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So does this start a new Thread...

"Is the 375 enough gun for an Elephant or should I dart it with LSD?"

You gotta admit it hasn't been discussed yet!!
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quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
That Doctor should have been charged with animal cruelty.


Think about what you say--

So not knowing the "dose" of an experimental compound is cruelty?

Does this then imply that all animal experimentation in science is cruelty?
(Which is the current position of Peta and many other organizations. )

So should we ask only for human subjects to volunteer to test and develop knowledge of compounds?

Or, is it that only bad outcomes are "cruelty" ?

And how does your position on this differ from using a new bullet design "to Test" on a Hunt?

Slippery , slippery slope---

Animals are just that--animals, a resource ; as are fish, trees, and other life forms.

Are we then cruel in our utilization of any living thing??

Again , many say yes.

I sincerely doubt the scientist involved desired such an outcome, nor did he desire to create suffering as his goal.

Knowledge it is said comes at a price, we have since 1962 learned much, yet there is much more to learn.


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LSD is a synthetic compound and its structure is based on fungal alkaloids.

LSD side effects on humans besides the psychological and hallucinogen properties may include increases in heart rate, blood pressure, and body temperature.

The truth is that no one knows all of the true side effects of any drug between males, females, pediatric or elderly humans. An identical drug reacts entirely different for the above groups. In addition, combination of more than one drugs can create unknown side effect(s).

Pretty scary? Think twice before taking any drug.


Inter species can have completely opposite effects of drugs. Example: There was a case years ago were a lion in a zoo was injected with morphine in an attempt to sedate it. The thought was the morphine would act as a central nervous system (CNS) analgesic as it does in humans, to the contrary the morphine acted as a CNS stimulate and the lion went berserk and ripped off an arm of one of the zoo keepers.


Tusko may have had an allergic reaction? Possible toxic levels of the drug? Induced heart failure?

There has been experiments were elephants have been given LSD orally via in water and there were no deaths or permanent damage reported.



dale
 
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quote:
Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
That Doctor should have been charged with animal cruelty.


Think about what you say--

So not knowing the "dose" of an experimental compound is cruelty?

Does this then imply that all animal experimentation in science is cruelty?
(Which is the current position of Peta and many other organizations. )

So should we ask only for human subjects to volunteer to test and develop knowledge of compounds?

Or, is it that only bad outcomes are "cruelty" ?

And how does your position on this differ from using a new bullet design "to Test" on a Hunt?

Slippery , slippery slope---

Animals are just that--animals, a resource ; as are fish, trees, and other life forms.

Are we then cruel in our utilization of any living thing??

Again , many say yes.

I sincerely doubt the scientist involved desired such an outcome, nor did he desire to create suffering as his goal.

Knowledge it is said comes at a price, we have since 1962 learned much, yet there is much more to learn.


You bring up good points. If there is good rational for the experiment, which we don't know in this instance then it wou;ld not be cruelty to animals. My problem here is that he used a very high dose to start with. I can assure you that is not the scientific method. You always start low and move up in dosage as indicated by the animals reaction. That is the cruelty part in my opinion.

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quote:
My problem here is that he used a very high dose to start with. I can assure you that is not the scientific method. You always start low and move up in dosage as indicated by the animals reaction. That is the cruelty part in my opinion.

465H&H


Not true, I'm afraid.
Particularly in older LD/ 50 studies,( which this one was not) or older side-effect profile studies.

Many short studies were based on single dose calculations.

Procedures ,especially in the 1960's, differ among laboratories and individual authors.

One study I conducted for a "huge" concern even specified the starting dose. (which BTW was far above our calculations)

Rationale in studies is often "not good" as you call it.

It is after a reproducible result is confirmed that rationale can then be assessed.

So if an experimenter considers the aspect that an animal subject may die ,be injured or suffer pain ,in your opinion this is not a part of the investigative process, but simply cruelty?


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quote:
Originally posted by daleW:
LSD is a synthetic compound and its structure is based on fungal alkaloids.

LSD side effects on humans besides the psychological and hallucinogen properties may include increases in heart rate, blood pressure, and body temperature.

The truth is that no one knows all of the true side effects of any drug between males, females, pediatric or elderly humans. An identical drug reacts entirely different for the above groups. In addition, combination of more than one drugs can create unknown side effect(s).

Pretty scary? Think twice before taking any drug.


Inter species can have completely opposite effects of drugs. Example: There was a case years ago were a lion in a zoo was injected with morphine in an attempt to sedate it. The thought was the morphine would act as a central nervous system (CNS) analgesic as it does in humans, to the contrary the morphine acted as a CNS stimulate and the lion went berserk and ripped off an arm of one of the zoo keepers.


Tusko may have had an allergic reaction? Possible toxic levels of the drug? Induced heart failure?

There has been experiments were elephants have been given LSD orally via in water and there were no deaths or permanent damage reported.



dale


Morphine rage in felines has been known for many decades.

A Tabby on morphine can be like handling a leopard, I assure you.


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quote:
Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
quote:
My problem here is that he used a very high dose to start with. I can assure you that is not the scientific method. You always start low and move up in dosage as indicated by the animals reaction. That is the cruelty part in my opinion.

465H&H


It is unfortunate but drug companies are not know for the scientific quality of their studies. I hesitate to call them reserch. Apparently, the standards for the veterinary and wild life fields are much higher.

465H&H

Not true, I'm afraid.
Particularly in older LD/ 50 studies,( which this one was not) or older side-effect profile studies.

Many short studies were based on single dose calculations.

Procedures ,especially in the 1960's, differ among laboratories and individual authors.

One study I conducted for a "huge" concern even specified the starting dose. (which BTW was far above our calculations)

Rationale in studies is often "not good" as you call it.

It is after a reproducible result is confirmed that rationale can then be assessed.

So if an experimenter considers the aspect that an animal subject may die ,be injured or suffer pain ,in your opinion this is not a part of the investigative process, but simply cruelty?
 
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Makes me wonder if acid was the real reason that Dumbo could fly.


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Originally posted by 465H&H:
It is unfortunate but drug companies are not know for the scientific quality of their studies. I hesitate to call them reserch. Apparently, the standards for the veterinary and wild life fields are much higher.
465H&H


Research is in many cases funded by grants. These grants arise from foundations, governments,corporations and even individuals.

Many research programs involve proposals for both human and veterinary end usage.

Most major pharmaceutical companies have veterinary divisions.

As far as" not being known for the scientific quality of their studies":
after initial development most studies are carried out in multiple labs under multiple directors to ascertain reproducible and factual data.

I truly fail to see this in any manner as being of an impaired quality standard or suspect protocol.

I am truly interested in your perspective on the following :

"So if an experimenter considers the aspect that an animal subject may die ,be injured or suffer pain ,in your opinion this is not a part of the investigative process, but simply cruelty?"


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Originally posted by mrlexma:
Makes me wonder if acid was the real reason that Dumbo could fly.


Probably more the acid taken by those beleiving they saw Dumbo fly. Wink


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quote:
Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
It is unfortunate but drug companies are not know for the scientific quality of their studies. I hesitate to call them reserch. Apparently, the standards for the veterinary and wild life fields are much higher.
465H&H


Research is in many cases funded by grants. These grants arise from foundations, governments,corporations and even individuals.

Many research programs involve proposals for both human and veterinary end usage.

Most major pharmaceutical companies have veterinary divisions.

As far as" not being known for the scientific quality of their studies":
after initial development most studies are carried out in multiple labs under multiple directors to ascertain reproducible and factual data.

I truly fail to see this in any manner as being of an impaired quality standard or suspect protocol.

I am truly interested in your perspective on the following :

"So if an experimenter considers the aspect that an animal subject may die ,be injured or suffer pain ,in your opinion this is not a part of the investigative process, but simply cruelty?"


You are taking my opinion on one case and extending to others. In the case of using a dose so utterly high on a the subject animal without working up in dosage is cruelty as well as professional malfeasance. He should get the Darwin award. By the way how often are Drug Company results reported in peer reviwed Journals? That is the true test of whether the scientific method was used. Drug companies wouldn't be sued so often if they did use scientific methods and reported the reults accurately.

465H&H
 
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Morphine rage in felines has been known for many decades.


What the Hell?????????? rotflmo


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quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
You are taking my opinion on one case and extending to others. In the case of using a dose so utterly high on a the subject animal without working up in dosage is cruelty as well as professional malfeasance. He should get the Darwin award. By the way how often are Drug Company results reported in peer reviwed Journals? That is the true test of whether the scientific method was used. Drug companies wouldn't be sued so often if they did use scientific methods and reported the reults accurately.465H&H


You are indeed entitled to your opinion, however, when you cast your aspersions do not expect unsupported and even slanderous statements to be left without challenge.

If you would recall, almost always,some news service, WSJ,AP, Reuters, etc, will break stories about drug research. Such research information is found in in journals.

If you spend any time around the courts system you will understand that lawsuits are rarely based on poor scientific methods, rather, they are most often based on greed playing on emotion.

As far as taking your opinion and applying it broadly , it generally follows that one postulating a statement has reasons to do so and those reasons are rarely limited to a singular instance.


With respect to animal subjects in science I am sincere in my interest as to your response to the following:

" If an experimenter considers the aspect that an animal subject may die ,be injured or suffer pain ,in your opinion this is not a part of the investigative process, but simply cruelty?"


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quote:
Originally posted by RREESE:
quote:
Morphine rage in felines has been known for many decades.


What the Hell?????????? rotflmo


Another aside:
Morphine in most canines will cause such intense abdominal pain that the animal may bite into its own abdominal cavity.


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DuggaBoye,
Are canines particularly sensitive to spasm of the Sphincter of Odi? Morphine may cause abdominal pain in humans too, by that mechanism.

Some humans get really goofy on Morphine too, agitated, paranoid, etc. Do those humans share some neuroreceptor chemistry with felines?

As for the Elephantine LSD dose:
That was a Walterism. Not science.
 
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Originally posted by RIP:
DuggaBoye,
Are canines particularly sensitive to spasm of the Sphincter of Odi? Morphine may cause abdominal pain in humans too, by that mechanism.

Some humans get really goofy on Morphine too, agitated, paranoid, etc. Do those humans share some neuroreceptor chemistry with felines?

As for the Elephantine LSD dose:
That was a Walterism. Not science.


Uncertain of the exact mechanisms, in feline or canine,
The intense pain secondary to spasm of the Sphincter of Odi, as well as general severe spasm of hollow viscous may well be causal factors, in the canine.

The neuroreceptor chemistry of endorphins and enkephalins and hence opioids in felines is apparently similar in some manner to humans.

As far Walterisms, having not met the famed, fabled and or infamous gentleman, I shall reserve comparisons.


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quote:
Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
You are taking my opinion on one case and extending to others. In the case of using a dose so utterly high on a the subject animal without working up in dosage is cruelty as well as professional malfeasance. He should get the Darwin award. By the way how often are Drug Company results reported in peer reviwed Journals? That is the true test of whether the scientific method was used. Drug companies wouldn't be sued so often if they did use scientific methods and reported the reults accurately.465H&H


You are indeed entitled to your opinion, however, when you cast your aspersions do not expect unsupported and even slanderous statements to be left without challenge. What makes you think and assume that I don't expect to be challenged? In fact, I encourage it.

If you would recall, almost always,some news service, WSJ,AP, Reuters, etc, will break stories about drug research. Such research information is found in in journals. True, but not always peer reviewed journals.

If you spend any time around the courts system you will understand that lawsuits are rarely based on poor scientific methods, rather, they are most often based on greed playing on emotion. That may be your opinion but do you have any data to support it?

As far as taking your opinion and applying it broadly , it generally follows that one postulating a statement has reasons to do so and those reasons are rarely limited to a singular instance. Making genmneralizations to prove your case, in this case proves your statement is wrong.


With respect to animal subjects in science I am sincere in my interest as to your response to the following:

" If an experimenter considers the aspect that an animal subject may die ,be injured or suffer pain ,in your opinion this is not a part of the investigative process, but simply cruelty?"


Read again what and why I said this is a case of animal cruelty and don't extend what I said beyond it.

"You bring up good points. If there is good rational for the experiment, which we don't know in this instance then it would not be cruelty to animals. My problem here is that he used a very high dose to start with. I can assure you that is not the scientific method. You always start low and move up in dosage as indicated by the animals reaction. That is the cruelty part in my opinion."

I may be wrong but it appears to me that you think I am against any animal experimentation or drug use on animals. In fact I have used drugs to tranquilize large numbers of ungulates and carnivores. These have included mule deer, big horn sheep, elk, moose, mountain lion and bears. We know that when we tranquilize an animal we have a 10% chance of the animal dying. We have to way our reason for tranquilization against that mortality factor.

I still believe that in this case the Doctor was guilty of animal cruelty and surely malpractice. I can think of no good reason to try LSD on elephants. If not, I doubt he would have disappeared into the wood work.

465H&H
 
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quote:
Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
quote:
Originally posted by mrlexma:
Makes me wonder if acid was the real reason that Dumbo could fly.


Probably more the acid taken by those beleiving they saw Dumbo fly. Wink


You are way out of line.

I have seen Dumbo fly.

And I can assure you that I have never dropped so much as one tiny little tab of acid.


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As to peer review journals,the vast majority of medical, pharmacological, biochemistry and other journals are peer review types.

As to court cases, example-- the Silicone Implant cases---Zero evidence, only emotion and greed--no science.

Postulation of theorems based upon data at hand, when data is limited many be called generalization by some and deduction by others.

Society has taken the term humane which is an antonym of cruel and appropriated it from human usage to animals.

In criticizing "cruel" treatment of animals in science we embody those animals with human characteristics.

In so criticizing, as hunters in particular, we hypocritically,even self righteously appear to make distinctions that are indiscernible to those wishing for the termination of both hunting and animal use in science.

How do you reconcile a humane aspect of tissue disruption at 2500fps?

You may call it apples to oranges, if you so desire, the opposition does not.

My position may seem disturbing to you, but I reserve the term cruelty for humans, as I also reserve the term humane.

My purpose in advancing the question to you was not one of ridicule, rather an earnest effort to provoke thought.

I posed my question to you formulated upon your posted response.

We can go round and round and I assume never get to that answer.

I surmise this is becoming VVarrior and GSC -esque, and most likely boring to the remainder of the community.

With that in mind I can forgo my curiosity as to your answer.


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Originally posted by mrlexma:
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Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
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Originally posted by mrlexma:
Makes me wonder if acid was the real reason that Dumbo could fly.


Probably more the acid taken by those beleiving they saw Dumbo fly. Wink


You are way out of line.



I have seen Dumbo fly.

And I can assure you that I have never dropped so much as one tiny little tab of acid.


Peyote perhaps?? Wink


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Originally posted by RIP:
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Originally posted by Saeed:

The experiment was the brainchild of two doctors at the University of Oklahoma School of Medicine, Louis Jolyon West and Chester M Pierce, and Warren Thomas, director of the zoo, who wanted to learn more about LSD's pharmacological properties.

... they simply noted: "It appears that the elephant is highly sensitive to the effects of LSD."




Walter is to blame for this too.



Oh good!! Somebody giving away another book?


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Posts: 7626 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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That is inhumane as it gets. What sort of useful information could be had by jacking-up an elephant with an ass-load of LSD? I would dearly love to kidnap the three men, tie there hands to there feet, and force-feed them 20 hits of acid each. Then I'd get a lawn chair and a 12-pack, kick back and enjoy the show.
 
Posts: 172 | Location: DAPHNE, ALABAMA | Registered: 26 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Duggaboye,

Do you honestly believe it isn't cruelty for someone to let their horses starve or for a man to douse a cat with lighter fluid, then set it alight to see how fast it can run? If so then you have been desensitized by your work for the drug companies and that makes my point better than anything I could come up with.

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