I must say that I have spent hours going through the archives and reading all the old posts, extremely entertaining, thank you! I apologise that my first post is a whinge/moan but I have to get it off my chest....
The latest edition of a monthly hunting magazine here in South Africa shows a very well known Namibian PH sitting next to a buff that is supposedly the new Namibian No1(45" it says????), and I swear I can see milk dribbling from its mouth it is so young..... I personally would be embarrased to have my pic taken with it. One sees more and more of this and I worry that if it continues the quality of buffalo is going to decline drastically.

Actually, beyond disease or government policy, I think the biggest thing we have to worry about for the future of buffalo hunting is....Saeed! There may not be any left by the time he gets done hunting them!

Ha ha true! Be interesting to hear exactly how many he has shot over the years!

Vans- Just look them all up in the SCI record books, I am sure they are there???

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Vans:
Ha ha true! Be interesting to hear exactly how many he has shot over the years!

Yeah Vans. Safari hunters have been touting gloom and doom for decades. Buffalo hunting is in good hands. Just each guy do his part regarding proper selectivity and conservation. We'll be fine. For every immature buff whacked I see at least 50 dagga boys, and mature trophies harvested.

By and large the PH's know what they're doing over their. Occasionally a young wide 45-incher gets whacked, and its foto makes it to the magazine pages. The client eventually is vilified by the blogs and lesson learned.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Namibia is a fine country-hunted there last year with my little dude. But take a look at some of the impressive buffs taken by Adam Clements, Danny McCallum Safaris and Raoul Ramoni and I'm sure your faith will be restored.

Not a bad opener for your first topic started. What else you wanna off your chest?

Cut us some slack, chicken little.

One guy shoots one immature (according to you, anyway) bull, and you have doubts about the future of buffalo hunting?

Have a chunk of boerewors and a Klip and coke and calm down.

George

Save one for me! Does not have to be 40" but needs to drop below his jaw line, 16" + bosses and complete curl.

EZ

The only thing that buff have to fear is loss of habitat.

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:
Yeah Vans. Safari hunters have been touting gloom and doom for decades. Buffalo hunting is in good hands. Just each guy do his part regarding proper selectivity and conservation. We'll be fine. For every immature buff whacked I see at least 50 dagga boys, and mature trophies harvested.

By and large the PH's know what they're doing over their. Occasionally a young wide 45-incher gets whacked, and its foto makes it to the magazine pages. The client eventually is vilified by the blogs and lesson learned.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Namibia is a fine country-hunted there last year with my little dude. But take a look at some of the impressive buffs taken by Adam Clements, Danny McCallum Safaris and Raoul Ramoni and I'm sure your faith will be restored.

Not a bad opener for your first topic started. What else you wanna off your chest?

There seems to be more than a little hypocrisy floating around here. I thought that the standard put forth by Craig and supported by Sable trail was that if it is legal it is OK. Shooting a young buffalo with a soft boss is legal as far as I know every where that they are hunted. Why vilify someone or support those that do if it is a legal animal? Most of us prefer to harvest an old dagga boy with hard boses so if someone shoots a young bull, he is wrong? Why? Because we see those young bulls will never get to be the kind of old bull that we want to hunt. Selection of an old bull over a young bull is exactly the aesthic preference that Professor Tantillo was talking about but some of us are using ethics as our reason to oppose such a dastardly action. Someone will surely try to make a case for conservation for shooting old bulls only. I don't buy it. Many think that dagga boys are past breeding age and therefore killing them doesn't affect reproduction in buffalo. I do know that research has shown that these dagga boys return to the herd every so often to compete for breeding rights. From what I know about dagga boys they spend time away from the herd building back energy reserves used up while they are in the herds competing with other males for the opportunity to breed. In buffalo as well as most other ungulates, it is the female that selects the breeding male and not vice versa. We do not know for sure what criteria they use for their selection. Certainly size and age matter but there may be less obvious criteria such as aggressive behavior or the smell of male hormones etc.

One thing for sure is that if she comes into estrous she will get bred. That is assuming that their are sufficient bulls in the herd to be available for her.

465H&H

quote:

Many think that dagga boys are past breeding age and therefore killing them doesn't affect reproduction in buffalo. I do know that research has shown that these dagga boys return to the herd every so often to compete for breeding rights. From what I know about dagga boys they spend time away from the herd building back energy reserves used up while they are in the herds competing with other males for the opportunity to breed. In buffalo as well as most other ungulates, it is the female that selects the breeding male and not vice versa. We do not know for sure what criteria they use for their selection.

Some research shows that "most" of the breeding is done by 2 & 3 year olds believe it or not.

I'm with 465. This, "if it is legal it is OK" mantra is a gutless cop out, total rubbish and dangerous to boot.

The biggest threat to hunting is the conduct of hunters. Like it or not, politicians make the rules and politicians are opinion whores.

If the electorate is turned against hunting then political administrations will respond. What turns off the average Joes and, often more importantly, Joannes, is sensational stories of hunters behaving badly.

You can have a million guys out there shooting game ethically but if two shoot a lion in a pen and it hits the media that is all it takes to taint public opinion.

So if we care about our way of life we need to get off the fence, come down firmly against unacceptable hunting and clean up our sport before the public decides to force politicians to introduce laws that take it away.

If we fail to take action we deserve to lose it.

I am going back to Tanz in dec 2011 to shoot two of the big monsters in Masailand. You can rest assured I won't shoot an immature buff. But at the same time, I have no problem with a guy on his one and only buffalo hunt shooting a buff that might be a bit soft.

Just because some of us can shoot as many buff as we want and can afford to be selective doesn't mean that everyone can.

When Joe the Plumber feels he can no longer afford to hunt, he is bagging it. And when he does, it is bad news for us all. That is why I hate US Outfitters - they don't care about hunting, they just care about making money.

Say what you want about killing an immature buff, but making hunting too elistist is a dangerous thing to do as well...

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
I'm with 465. This, "if it is legal it is OK" mantra is a gutless cop out, total rubbish and dangerous to boot.

The biggest threat to hunting is the conduct of hunters. Like it or not, politicians make the rules and politicians are opinion whores.

If the electorate is turned against hunting then political administrations will respond. What turns off the average Joes and, often more importantly, Joannes, is sensational stories of hunters behaving badly.

You can have a million guys out there shooting game ethically but if two shoot a lion in a pen and it hits the media that is all it takes to taint public opinion.

So if we care about our way of life we need to get off the fence, come down firmly against unacceptable hunting and clean up our sport before the public decides to force politicians to introduce laws that take it away.

If we fail to take action we deserve to lose it.

Didn't I have a select few hammer me about the ethics of hunting VS their "if it's legal I'll do it..." on another thread just last week?

Good to see some of you have gotten off of that "whatever, as long as I get to kill something" side of the fence.

We should probably petition USFWS to not allow any buff under 45" to be imported in to the country anymore.

Rich
DRSS
Rich
DRSS

Interesting thread. Forgive me, I know it was a different thread, but don't hunters tout themselves as true "conservationists" ie. we preserve the species by the type of hunting that we do? If so, how does this fit in with "well if they want to shoot an immature bull, if it floats their boat then it is OK with me". Wasn't this the original question, after all?
And then of course there is Sable Trail's contribution:
"Not a bad opener for your first topic started. What else you wanna off your chest?"


Peter.

Idaho, sir, you're going to get hammmered wherever you go. You can run, but you can't hide.

I got worried about this subject a couple of years ago, for several not very good reasons. Then, I looked into it.

IIRC, there are roughly eighty-four gazillion buffalo in Africa. I quit worrying.

I only wish that I were a greater danger to them.

Good hunting.

465 H&H: My response above had nothing to do with ethics. It had everything to do with my assessment that buff hunting is in good hands and conservation wise the future of such pursuit is in solid hands.

Are some guys now and then gonna whack a young one? Yes. I can't criticize a fella if he did that. I share the same reasoning as AAZW articulated above. If I had the chance I might ask him why he took that one, and depending on his reasoning I'd share some of my reasoning. We're just two grown men sharing hunting philosophies.

Let's say it's an 85-year-old fella and all he wanted to do was shoot a buff before he goes to heaven. He's on his last day of a 14-day hunt and a 36-incher presents him a shot and he whacks it. I'd pat him on the back and say, "Nice job old chap."

What I said in the other thread was that several factors; one's personal hunting skills, marksmanship, finances, health etc. shape how a person hunts, and as long as he's going by the rules I'm okay with it. Of course I'm not advocating one to go out and shoot immature trophies either. There is a slight gray area I will admit.

Having said all that, we all have different personal standards in hunting. I can bestow those upon my son and daughter, but I find it hard to do the same to any Joe Blow out there.

I'm not sure I'm making my point here, so even if you'd like to chat on the phone I'd discuss it with you further. 312 226 4047. "Vans" has opened up a good discussion, and I don't want to take his thread off topic.

quote:

Occasionally a young wide 45-incher gets whacked, and its foto makes it to the magazine pages. The client eventually is vilified by the blogs and lesson learned.

Sable Trail,

I took this statement of yours as your supporting the actions of those vilifing the hunter for shooting a young buff. If that wasn't your intent my appologies.

I seldom disagree with CB on anything he writes but in this case I do disagree with him. As long as there is no harm to the buffalo population why should we tell someone they are wrong to shoot a young buff if they are happy with it On the other hand I also don't agree that if it legal it is always OK philosophy.

Recently there was a TV show with our hero shooting a mtn zebra from the back of the vehicle. I suppose that was legal. If that was legal would it also be legal to shoot it if the vehicle was moving? Next step run them down with the vehicle. Now that may well be legal in Namibia, I don't know. But how would that look to the non-hunting public?

465H&H

I don't run, too old and out of shape. Don't hide either, too big to camouflage. Besides, I have lots of firearms, and tons of ammunition.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:

Let's say it's an 85-year-old fella and all he wanted to do was shoot a buff before he goes to heaven. He's on his last day of a 14-day hunt and a 36-incher presents him a shot and he whacks it. I'd pat him on the back and say, "Nice job old chap."

Well said. Who among us would rip the guy a new ass for shooting a young buff?

Vans, what magazine was this?

Healthy discussions... I love it!
I think what worries me the most is that the "PH" will point to that immature animal and say fine shoot it, if the client pulls the trigger and he is happy with what he shot then no arguments from me. Are there any arguments that money speaks before ethics/ etc? If so then the buffalo population is not the PH's primary concern.
The trouble is, it is not a isolated incident GeorgeS, troll the internet a bit and have a look at the wonderful "trophies" that these so called professionals let their clients shoot. It is interesting though just because I come from SA you think that I drink Klippies and coke....
Yes there are guys shooting awesome buff, consistently, because they do not shoot the young ones that are still actively breeding, passing on their genes and ensuring that guys who want to shoot old buffalo will be able to do so with our children one day.

African Outfitter

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:

Let's say it's an 85-year-old fella and all he wanted to do was shoot a buff before he goes to heaven. He's on his last day of a 14-day hunt and a 36-incher presents him a shot and he whacks it. I'd pat him on the back and say, "Nice job old chap."

Well said. Who among us would rip the guy a new ass for shooting a young buff?

Interesting. I just had a client shoot what appeared to be an old bull. He was holed up in a dense shady thicket. To my disgust is was very slightly soft on the very front edge of the boss. It was a mistake and I apologized, but John my client had not got a clue what I was talking about. For him it was the most thrilling day of his life.

Not sure if there is a moral to this but as a PH I work hard to find old males and refuse to shoot young animals for the sake of a few inches.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
-----

We should probably petition USFWS to not allow any buff under 45" to be imported in to the country anymore.

Rich
DRSS
Rich
DRSS

IMO-

Bad Idea,

not only are there plenty of old buff less than

45".


But, encouraging further involvement of any of

our Overly Regulation minded government

entities to intrude into other countries

regulations and

our personal freedom --

is simply --

a Bad Idea

465
I get what you were saying about the " if it's legal" statement from Craig, but our combined feeling about shooting young bulls was discussed in great detail in both our buffalo DVD's, especially Boddington On Buffalo 2. We are against it for all the obvious reasons. I hope you did not think it was Craig shooting a Mnt. Zebra from the top of the truck. I promise you that was not on our show.

I don't think there are many hunters who have killed multiple buffalo who would be happy shooting a young one. But I stick to my point that it is pretty arrogant for us to tell a guy on his once in a lifetime hunt not to shoot a bull on the last day of his hunt. Why? So we can be assured of killing a shitload more in our lifetimes?

I have twice left buff #3 unfilled on 21 day licenses, simply because I didn't see anything bigger than what I had. What would be the point of shooting a young one?

Another question...the young buff I have seen are always in a herd - and there are always plenty of them. So what harm is done if that 85 year old guy shoots a soft one on his last day?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:

Let's say it's an 85-year-old fella and all he wanted to do was shoot a buff before he goes to heaven. He's on his last day of a 14-day hunt and a 36-incher presents him a shot and he whacks it. I'd pat him on the back and say, "Nice job old chap."

Well said. Who among us would rip the guy a new ass for shooting a young buff?

Interesting. I just had a client shoot what appeared to be an old bull. He was holed up in a dense shady thicket. To my disgust is was very slightly soft on the very front edge of the boss. It was a mistake and I apologized, but John my client had not got a clue what I was talking about. For him it was the most thrilling day of his life.

Not sure if there is a moral to this but as a PH I work hard to find old males and refuse to shoot young animals for the sake of a few inches.

I ended up in the same situation as a hunter, on the ground we found out the buff wasn't as hard as we thought on the hoof. Dissapointed at first, but eventually I realized I'd hunted a buffalo, something that many only will dream of, and it also gives me a reason (as if I need one) to go after another.

quote:

e should probably petition USFWS to not allow any buff under 45" to be imported in to the country anymore.

Rich,
Could you please post a photo of your buffalo?

Thanks

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
465
I get what you were saying about the " if it's legal" statement from Craig, but our combined feeling about shooting young bulls was discussed in great detail in both our buffalo DVD's, especially Boddington On Buffalo 2. We are against it for all the obvious reasons. I hope you did not think it was Craig shooting a Mnt. Zebra from the top of the truck. I promise you that was not on our show.

I know it wasn't Craig and don't think I insinuated that in any way. Also there is no reason not to be against shooting young buffalo but realize that it is an aesthetic reason and not an ethical or conservation reason.

465H&H

I'll put it this way.

An old, hard-bossed bull Cape buffalo, with good horn length, is the holy grail.

But to me, the age of the bull is far more important than the length of his horns.

SO I think we're getting somewhere on this notion and as I give it some more thought, I believe were dealing with three different concepts as we debate what's right and what's wrong for hunters to do.

1) Number One is: Personal Standards. One's own hunting selectivity based on what's in his trophy room or what he's killed already. For example AAZW willing to walk away on day 21 with an unfilled tag because PERSONALLY all the buffs he saw on that day didn't meet the criteria of his STANDARDS. That criteria also defines ones own selectivity. Depending on who you are, your selectivity gauge, your personal moral conscience, does not allow YOU YOURSELF to pull the trigger. But perhaps the rookie hunter standing next to you, the less experienced chap, the 85-year-old man i.e., operates under a narrower gauge of selectivity. SO he takes the shot on the buff AAZW let's walk.

2) Number two is: Legal standards. In Africa there are many. The taking only of a tom leopard, a bull Lord Derby Eland, a stallion zebra, a male lion in most countries. And there are many more. Within this LEGAL doctrine, sometimes PH and clients make mistakes. No one feels worse than a PH does, when he makes the wrong call allowing the client to shoot an illegal or immature animal. No one. Whenever the survivability of a certain species becomes threatened the LEGAL standard of harvesting that animal becomes tightened. But many safari hunters aren't waiting for that day when the LEGAL restrictions get tighter or the animal becomes endangered. They're doing what they can today to ensure survivability. As Dave pointed out above, they spent an entire section of Bod on Buff 2, discussing this very notion on buffalo and how to field judge a trophy buffalo. Many of us on this board wish the legal standards were tighter on buffalo and other animals.

3) Number three is: Ethical standards. That's described as the moral compass within the hunting world of what's widely viewed as acceptable. But ethics in the hunting world as they are in any field, are so subjective. We all argue over ethics. My ethics are not your ethics! In American politics we have ethics, and that's why they have political parties that separate idealogical/ethical differences into Republicans and Democrats. But in the hunting world we're all under one big tent, so it's unavoidable that we're going to clash from time to time.

Some of us think the suitable way to draw the line is along the fence of what's legal and what's not. But it seems we can't even agree on that. That's not to say CB, myself and others don't have personal standards within what we view as ethically standard for the hunting world. Hell yes we do. And therein lies what these last couple debates are all about. All three of the above concepts get intertwined. I think after reading my entire thread on Hunting v. Shooting and this one, that we all pretty much agree on the same thing. We just all describe it differently.

Man I hate this recurring argument - and I usually sit on the sidelines watching as it devolves into questioning someones heritage and ancestry, but this time, I'm in.

This is a parallel argument by experienced deer hunters in the States - save the little guys and let 'em grow big. I understand. That is an appropriate evolution of a hunter. The beginner, however, just wants the experience. Every one is a trophy. I wouldn't want a beginner to become disillusioned and give it up because he/she felt obligated to let anything short of a Booner walk without firing a shot.

On the other hand, I look back at some of the pitifully immature/poor quality animals I shot on my first visit to Africa, and am a bit sheepish. Do I regret shooting? Hell no! As a more experienced hunter, I wouldn't think of shooting an animal that young now - but at the time, it was all I could have dreamed of. I was hunting in Africa!

I think we all go through those stages - and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So long as it is legal, and the hunter is not misled by the PH, and makes the decision with full understanding of what he's doing, more power to him! Rarely in a health population is the loss of one animal going to do irreparable harm.

Dave

I guess I should just apologize in advance. In the very unlikely case that I ever have the money to hunt buffalo, while I can still walk, my buffalo will probably not live up to your expectations. I understand that many of you have shot so many that the bar is high. I am only 56, but if I get the chance to hunt buffalo it will be once. The bar may start high, but by the end cows will start looking good.

quote:

Rarely in a health population is the loss of one animal going to do irreparable harm.

It is not one animal that I am worried with...it is repetitiveness that worries me!

Ledvm is correct. The loss of any single animal will not have a negative affect on the population unless population levels are extremely low. Most safrai areas have very conservative harvest levels so over harvest isn't an issue. In fact their harvest isn't high enough to material affect reproductive rates and it is also low enough that there is very little impact on availability of old bulls. If you need to reduce a population you have to harvest the breeding age cows. The concern over shooting young bull buffalo affecting the number of old bulls has little or no basis in fact.
As I said before, those basing their opposition to shooting young bulls on conservation principles are wrong. It is simply a matter of asethetics (wanting more old bulls in the population to chose from).

465H&H

If a PH cannot show his client an old solid bossed bull in 7 or more days of hunting and offer him at least a couple of shooting opportunities then either the quota has been too high for too long or the area has a bad buffalo population.

We seem to be visiting "if it is legal" and "ethically" quite often lately.

But, we also seem to forget the most important part of all this.

Personal choice.

There are a lot of things that are legal. But I have absolutely no wish to participate in them.

As to ethics, I suspect they are as varied as there are different individuals here.

Back to buffalo.

There is no way that hunting can do anything for the future of buffalo except to improve it. The money spent on hunting buffalo will insure that.

As to shooting bulls with soft bosses. Sometimes it is done because one has no other choice. Sometimes it is done by mistake.

Personally, I prefer to shoot an old bull any time. Regardless of the size of his spread. In fact, I have shot quite a few that have broken horns, deformed horns or no horns at all. This despite seeing bigger, younger bulls in the same herd.

I have shot bulls with soft bosses for bait, and for camp meat.

The gentleman who mentioned that some of us who have been hunting for so many years might have the luxury to pick and choose what we shoot.

The new hunter, however, has less choice if he sees a reasonable, but young trophy a day or two before the end of his hunt.

He sure does not want to go home empty handed.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We seem to be visiting "if it is legal" and "ethically" quite often lately.

But, we also seem to forget the most important part of all this.

Personal choice.

There are a lot of things that are legal. But I have absolutely no wish to participate in them.

As to ethics, I suspect they are as varied as there are different individuals here.

Back to buffalo.

There is no way that hunting can do anything for the future of buffalo except to improve it. The money spent on hunting buffalo will insure that.

I am sure that there are now more buffalo in private ownership in South Africa than in all our reserves combined.

I also am sure that buffalo hunting will become more commonplace for the ordinary hunter here within a few years. Trophy animals will always command a premium, fueled by stronger foreign currencies, but in the end the landowner will need his herds to be hunted in a balanced manner and as such cows and even some younger bulls are going to be taken at near to meat hunting prices.

Then we can keep this thread going with the added debate arround just how big the ranch must be in order to call it a hunt

I had mixed feelings about shooting an imature animal in the past but I doubt I would shoot one today.There is plenty of good in just showing up and participating in a hunt that shooting an imature animal is not terrible thing.