quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Most safrai areas have very conservative harvest levels so over harvest isn't an issue. In fact their harvest isn't high enough to material affect reproductive rates and it is also low enough that there is very little impact on availability of old bulls.

465H&H

I am not sure the above statement is 100% correct.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Most safrai areas have very conservative harvest levels so over harvest isn't an issue. In fact their harvest isn't high enough to material affect reproductive rates and it is also low enough that there is very little impact on availability of old bulls.

465H&H

I am not sure the above statement is 100% correct.

Agreed and that is why I said most and not all!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Most safrai areas have very conservative harvest levels so over harvest isn't an issue. In fact their harvest isn't high enough to material affect reproductive rates and it is also low enough that there is very little impact on availability of old bulls.

465H&H

I am not sure the above statement is 100% correct.

Agreed and that is why I said most and not all!

465H&H

Ledvm brings up an interesting question. Does anyone know of a safari area that has been over harvested? Since the term "overharvest" can be defined in multiple ways and should be dependent on what the management goals are for that herd, tell us where and what criteria you used to say that it is overharvested. We are speaking of cape buffalo of course.

465H&H

As far as I know, the Namibian no. 1 and 2 where shot fairly recently (within the last 5 years anyways)in Tsumkwe region, Bushmanland, and I think both went over 50". I will try and find photos. Outfitter was Eden Safaris.

.465H&H, IMO overharvest can also mean high poaching pressure, so there are plenty of areas that would qualify. As a rule, governemnt approved quotas though are fairly conservative across Africa, being between <1 and 3 % of total population size per year.

Well, here's my input from someone who will be going on his first Buff hunt next year (Hopefully, as I can't seem to get outfitters to answer questions or even answer emails asking about booking a hunt)

At the start of my hunt, I will tell my PH that all I want is hard bossed older bull and the decision of which bull to shoot will probably (almost certainly) be his. I have no experience judging Buff in the field, and at distance and in the heat of a hunt I know that I wouldn't be able to tell a old bull from a young one.

If in the last couple of days I do not have an older bull "in the salt" I will ask the PH to pick the the best bull out of the next group that we see as who knows what the future will hold.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Well, here's my input from someone who will be going on his first Buff hunt next year (Hopefully, as I can't seem to get outfitters to answer questions or even answer emails asking about booking a hunt)

At the start of my hunt, I will tell my PH that all I want is hard bossed older bull and the decision of which bull to shoot will probably (almost certainly) be his. I have no experience judging Buff in the field, and at distance and in the heat of a hunt I know that I wouldn't be able to tell a old bull from a young one.

If in the last couple of days I do not have an older bull "in the salt" I will ask the PH to pick the the best bull out of the next group that we see as who knows what the future will hold.

No you won't Frank. If your operator sells you a Buffalo hunt and you can not get a crack at a decent hard bossed bull then you go and ask for your money back.

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Well, here's my input from someone who will be going on his first Buff hunt next year (Hopefully, as I can't seem to get outfitters to answer questions or even answer emails asking about booking a hunt)

At the start of my hunt, I will tell my PH that all I want is hard bossed older bull and the decision of which bull to shoot will probably (almost certainly) be his. I have no experience judging Buff in the field, and at distance and in the heat of a hunt I know that I wouldn't be able to tell a old bull from a young one.

If in the last couple of days I do not have an older bull "in the salt" I will ask the PH to pick the the best bull out of the next group that we see as who knows what the future will hold.

No you won't Frank. If your operator sells you a Buffalo hunt and you can not get a crack at a decent hard bossed bull then you go and ask for your money back.

Andrew

And I thought there are no guarantees in real hunting!?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Well, here's my input from someone who will be going on his first Buff hunt next year (Hopefully, as I can't seem to get outfitters to answer questions or even answer emails asking about booking a hunt)

At the start of my hunt, I will tell my PH that all I want is hard bossed older bull and the decision of which bull to shoot will probably (almost certainly) be his. I have no experience judging Buff in the field, and at distance and in the heat of a hunt I know that I wouldn't be able to tell a old bull from a young one.

If in the last couple of days I do not have an older bull "in the salt" I will ask the PH to pick the the best bull out of the next group that we see as who knows what the future will hold.

No you won't Frank. If your operator sells you a Buffalo hunt and you can not get a crack at a decent hard bossed bull then you go and ask for your money back.

Andrew

And I thought there are no guarantees in real hunting!?

And SNAP, the snare line goes taut!

Karl, It says the animal was shot by Hunters Namibia in the Waterberg National Park. Quote " The buffalo had a 45" spread, the new # 1 in Namibia."
The photo of the buff is on the website.

Vans, what they meant by no. 1 is, it is the biggest so far that has been bought a medal for from NAPHA, but of course not all people buy NAPHA medals, so a LOT goes unregistered. To claim no. 1, I think they should at least make SCI no. 1 for Namibia, or Rowland Ward. Not just NAPHA medal system.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Most safrai areas have very conservative harvest levels so over harvest isn't an issue. In fact their harvest isn't high enough to material affect reproductive rates and it is also low enough that there is very little impact on availability of old bulls.

465H&H

I am not sure the above statement is 100% correct.

Agreed and that is why I said most and not all!

465H&H

Ledvm brings up an interesting question. Does anyone know of a safari area that has been over harvested? Since the term "overharvest" can be defined in multiple ways and should be dependent on what the management goals are for that herd, tell us where and what criteria you used to say that it is overharvested. We are speaking of cape buffalo of course.

465H&H

I know of some...

...but...due to inflaming nature of the discussion...I am not going to say which ones.

And...I don't think that government quotas are all that conservative.

Most Government's goals...are to maximize revenue.

So they generally set the quotas at the absolutely barely sustainable maximum for perfect conditions...which usually does NOT account for poaching pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Well, here's my input from someone who will be going on his first Buff hunt next year (Hopefully, as I can't seem to get outfitters to answer questions or even answer emails asking about booking a hunt)

At the start of my hunt, I will tell my PH that all I want is hard bossed older bull and the decision of which bull to shoot will probably (almost certainly) be his. I have no experience judging Buff in the field, and at distance and in the heat of a hunt I know that I wouldn't be able to tell a old bull from a young one.

If in the last couple of days I do not have an older bull "in the salt" I will ask the PH to pick the the best bull out of the next group that we see as who knows what the future will hold.

No you won't Frank. If your operator sells you a Buffalo hunt and you can not get a crack at a decent hard bossed bull then you go and ask for your money back.

Andrew

And I thought there are no guarantees in real hunting!?

To my way of thinking, there is a big difference between expecting an opportunity and getting a guarantee.

I think it is reasonable, in most cases, to expect an outfitter to provide the hunter with at least an opportunity to hunt and kill the game he is after.

An outfitter should not offer a hunt unless the area to be hunted can reasonably be expected to hold the game being hunted at the time of the hunt.

On the other hand, I would not go so far as to say that, if the sought-after game is scarce, or cannot be found, the hunter is always and unconditionally entitled to get his money back from the outfitter.

Lack of game in any given area at any given time can depend on uncontrollable factors.

Most notably, there is the potential for adverse weather conditions, such as too much water, or too little.

quote:

Just because some of us can shoot as many buff as we want and can afford to be selective doesn't mean that everyone can.

When Joe the Plumber feels he can no longer afford to hunt, he is bagging it. And when he does, it is bad news for us all. That is why I hate US Outfitters - they don't care about hunting, they just care about making money.

Say what you want about killing an immature buff, but making hunting too elistist is a dangerous thing to do as well...

This is one of the best posts that I have ever read here. Thanks for putting that to words.


.

Everyone talks as though buffalo hunting is a matter of carefully examining numerous bulls and selecting the dagga boy. That has not been my experience. Neither of the two I shot were as old and crusty as I would have liked but they were the ones I was able to get a shot at after many days and many miles of tracking. Some will say that I should have gone home without one if that was case. I say BS. I shot the best ones I could find and I'll do the same thing next time.

RG
That is my sentiment exactly. I'll do the best I can and shoot the best one I see. Not going home empty handed because I didn't see anything that meets other peoples expectations.

quote:

Everyone talks as though buffalo hunting is a matter of carefully examining numerous bulls and selecting the dagga boy. That has not been my experience.

Mine either.


.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
RG
That is my sentiment exactly. I'll do the best I can and shoot the best one I see. Not going home empty handed because I didn't see anything that meets other peoples expectations.

I am not arguing with either of you...... it is after all, your money. BUT.... if you are purchasing a dangerous game safari for a hard bossed trophy buffalo in Africa, would you not feel shortchanged (financially and from an experience stand point) with a non-trophy immature bull? Trully now? And cut the crap about a trophy being in the eyes of the beholder, you know what i am talking about here......

I would compare a soft bossed buffalo to a young whitetail. How many of you end up equally satisfied with a young white tail when you paid for and expected to hunt a trophy buck? In fact, would you shoot a young buck just so as NOT to go home empty handed?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
RG
That is my sentiment exactly. I'll do the best I can and shoot the best one I see. Not going home empty handed because I didn't see anything that meets other peoples expectations.

I am not arguing with either of you...... it is after all, your money. BUT.... if you are purchasing a dangerous game safari for a hard bossed trophy buffalo in Africa, would you not feel shortchanged (financially and from an experience stand point) with a non-trophy immature bull? Trully now? And cut the crap about a trophy being in the eyes of the beholder, you know what i am talking about here......

I would compare a soft bossed buffalo to a young whitetail. How many of you end up equally satisfied with a young white tail when you paid for and expected to hunt a trophy buck? In fact, would you shoot a young buck just so as NOT to go home empty handed?

According to SCI, he does not need to be hard bossed, as long as he has the inches.

I live in PA I shoot the first legal buck I see. I also shoot does when I get a permit and don't feel the least bit bad about it.

You cannot "tell and adult" what to do. You may suggest or persuede someone to you way of thinking but to berate someone for their way of thinking is non productive and perhaps futile.
I see this all the time on these forums and then watch the fireworks.
I am sure the PH's want repeat customers so in the end they will do what their clients want within reason.
Education will eventually pay off. It has done allot for the quality of Whitetail deer in my region.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I live in PA I shoot the first legal buck I see. I also shoot does when I get a permit and don't feel the least bit bad about it.

meat/ration hunting is a different question all together. The "young" ones are generally more tasty

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Everyone talks as though buffalo hunting is a matter of carefully examining numerous bulls and selecting the dagga boy. That has not been my experience.

Mine either.


.

Well...it HAS been my experience.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Everyone talks as though buffalo hunting is a matter of carefully examining numerous bulls and selecting the dagga boy. That has not been my experience.

Mine either.


.

Well...it HAS been my experience.

That's because you donkey druggists can afford to hunt several times a year in the best concessions with rock star hunters.

The rest of us have to scrimp and save for a bit of PAC once a decade. If we're lucky.

Milo, Ledvm and I have very little in common (other than a regard for the 500NE), but I have to call you on your comment, above. It is hard to read an email and determine whether it is meant in jest or should be taken at face value, but if at face value, it is uncalled for.
Just MHO, Peter.

quote:

That's because you donkey druggists can afford to hunt several times a year in the best concessions with rock star hunters.

The rest of us have to scrimp and save for a bit of PAC once a decade. If we're lucky.

Milo,

As I have told you before in private conversations...I WORK for every cent I spend hunting...and...as of late due to poor economy...you can count me amongst the scrimpers. I do have the luxury of excellent PH accompaniment.

Peter,
Loaded any cartrideges for your .500 yet?

Just came off the back of an 18 day elephant hunt that was shortened to 8 hunting days due to a couple of mishaps on the client and booking outfitters side.

the client had 4 animals on his wishlist, BIG elephant, buffalo, big kudu and a baboon. it was pointed out that no animal would be shot until the elephant was on the ground(the ivory measures 59" from lip to tip with a 19" circ - not bad), well the bull was shot on the 6th day and day 7 was spent on recovery. that left us with the last day to chase a buff out of the thickets and when i say thick stuff, the Jesse has nothing on this stuff. none the less we got the client onto some buff midafternoon and had to turn down a huge bull well over 48" as he was still very soft with bosses no where near touching. must be said that my PH's Paul Phelan and Ishmael Tshabalala hunted their behinds off.

walked 100 yrds further and the client got a nice big bosses 42" buff bull.

its all about self policy and the policy of the hunting company, if you book with a company that really has no concern for conservation then one can be expected to be encouraged to shoot immature animals.... my company policy strictly dictates only mature animals

quote:

Well...it HAS been my experience.

Damn! Good on ya'....I guess????


.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Well...it HAS been my experience.

Damn! Good on ya'....I guess????


.

Meaning...it is the norm...when hunting with reputable outfits.

ledvm, no I haven't. I don't have my gun yet and I was hoping to learn from you! I am planning on Jamesion brass, Hornady dies and Woodleigh and Hornady bullets. Will you please shoot that damn thing and lets us know what happens! I am curious about perceived recoil.
Peter.

On a quota system, Why would it matter if the client took a soft or a hard boss bull?


GTR

This thread is almost worthless without a picture of the offending "bull", so here ya go.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Milo, Ledvm and I have very little in common (other than a regard for the 500NE), but I have to call you on your comment, above. It is hard to read an email and determine whether it is meant in jest or should be taken at face value, but if at face value, it is uncalled for.
Just MHO, Peter.

I have been kidding Lane about equine vets being billionaires via PM for a while.

One of the good things about vets is, apart from them sometimes letting you cadge a lift on their private jets, is that they normally have a fine sense of humor and give as good as they get.

Then I apologise Milo. As I said it is hard to get subtle gestures in written posts and emails.
Peter.