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Iron buck, I can chalk up about 50 or more to Africa..Almost always some dangerous game involved..Much of the time I am a backup shooter. I think I can make a experienced decision on the kind of gun I require... I have seen control feed guns jam but I have seen many, many more push feeds fail...My personal control feed guns do not jam, never ever, end of story, but I have gone to great lengths to see that they don't..You cannot do that with a pushfeed IMO, by design they are prone to failure as that top round is loose and floping around in there, I have seen rounds fall out of the gun as clients ran trying to work the action, I have done that myself...They make a loud snap at the moment of truth and the shooter drops his load, but in his pants generally ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} I have noticed that every time that happens we have another control feed convert on our hands.. But, like I said, use whatever you want, you won't catch any flack from me...but I will stand by my guns on this one as my opine is as good as the next guys.... I also think you will find a lot more African experience on this forum than any other, many of these guys have been there many times, that I know for a fact. Others are very well versed on firearms of all kinds..A world of knowledge is right here for those ready to listen and learn. | |||
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Wow, this topic has got some blood up. I've had two extractors break, both of the "controlled feed" type. Why? Beats me, it just broke at the claw. Am I giving up on them? No way! When I hear something broke, I always wonder, what broke on it and no one has said what broke on these rifles? In my earlier High Power rifle competitions, Winchester Model 70's we the bolt gun to have. I saw extractors slip from the cartridge rim and this was usually attributed to a dirty chamber, a high pressure round, or someone improperly loading the rifle. I have had rounds expand in the chambers of rifles and it took a mallet to open the bolt. Controlled feed extractors alway slipped the rim, however Remingtons never slipped the rim or broke. Are they any better or worse? No I think if it was made by man, then you're going to have something go wrong. We talk about dangerous game and humans are the "most dangerous" game. Snipers across America use Remington 700's and I would think if there was a potential problem, we could have heard about it from them. The great thing about our country is everyone has the right to their opinion. Make your choice and live or die by it. | |||
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quote:Ray, You and I have never agreed on this issue. But your point above is well taken. And I agree with your later point that the rifle of choice should be conditioned and maintained to the nth degree, as if your life and well being depend upon it. Because that may be the case. | |||
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quote:Hammer, Whats to prove? The bullet will have a terminal performance that is independant of it being shot from a PF or CRF. The chamber tolerance, freebore and barrel dimensions will dictate pressure and the ultimate velocity. A box of cartridges is a box of cartridges. Period. Ray, Your experience is duly noted. I sure hope I can make it to Africa 1/10th as many times as you have been there. I am still saving for trip#1! I do appreciate the merits of the CRF and if I was after dangerous game I would love to use a model 70 CRF. But as of now I do not have one. But if I could leave today for a buff hunt I would take my Browning A-Bolt LH Stainless Stalker in 375HH and take my chances I have shot over 800 rounds through with no problems, both range time and actual hunting.I would prefer the CRF but shooting left handed I was rather limited in choices when I bought it. I just do not see using the Browning for my Buff hunt...while being backed up by a PH akin to jumping out of an airplane with no parachute or swimming across a crock infested river. Would I prefer a model 70 ? Yes. Would I feel like I was armed with nothing better than a club or slingshot if I had to use my Browning? No. Good luck on your upcoming hunt ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} [ 11-01-2003, 04:26: Message edited by: Iron Buck ] | |||
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Many extractor claws on control feed rifles, especially Mausers have been altered to allow the dropping of a loaded round into the chamber and closing the bolt..While this appears on the surface to be a neat conversion it is in fact the worse thing one can do, it weakens the extractor and is an accident looking for a place to happen....It is just as quick to push a round into the magazine as it is to drop one in the chamber, you still have to close the bolt so you get the same results...This is the only time I have seen claw extractors break..If one shoots a load hot enough to lock up the bolt so bad as to require a hammer to open it, then the jerk deserves whatever happens to him and the rifle, hardly an excuse for that besides at that point you have blown the extractor off the gun, and opening it with a hammer is the least of your problems... One must be very carefull when messing with Paul Mausers original design, we can make it look better but we will never improve it IMO.... | |||
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Iron Buck, You don't appreciate that the Cape Buffalo hunted by participants in this forum have extra-sensory-perception (ESP). They do, in fact, know whether their hunter is using a push-feed or a controlled-feed magazine rifle or if they are using a British-made double versus a German-drilling. We only hunt wise old Buffalo that can appreciate our efforts. So, either you have selected to hunt dumb buffalo, or, you must hunt up to your query. Hammer | |||
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quote:HAVING SOME experieince in "this" arena, I can say there is a GREAT deal of difference between struggling through the bush and taking on something that bites vs being proned out for hours on a rooftop/muddy hill/treetop(hey, you get to where you have to for the situation) I have never been in a situation as a "tactical shooter" where I would have more then just one person(BadGuy) to deal with. Further, it was SOP to have multiples on EACH BG if we had the manpower and the terrain to our advantage. These shooting scenarios are antiseptic and NO ONE ever touched a trigger in haste or "in a hurry" There were times when I had litereally HOURS to set up on a shot. Whether or not the rifle is a push feed or control feed just is NOT an issue for the shooter because he is NOT the one who is "in trouble" and you always have backup watching your backside. To put it coldly or in another way, I have never seen a police "sniper" threatened with death because HIS weapon didn't function. | |||
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LAWCOP, While the sniper's life is never in danger... Could other innocents' lives be in danger if the shot is not right ? And if there are multiple bad guys covering hostages, might multiple shots per sniper be prepared for ? Most folks would think if only one shot were always the expected outcome, snipers would focus on single-shot benchrest actions for the extra accuracy. But I think I see articles implying repeaters being used -- either bolt-action or AR-15 based. An innocent question by one with no experience in this arena. Hammer | |||
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quote:WHILE I never had to deal with some of the Ca. problems like the gangs that take over places, the largest number of possible BGs my team ever had to take on at one time was 4. A robbery of a bar gone wrong and 4BGs with a bar full of hostages. In that situation it is almost NEVER a situation for a sniper(s) to deal with. Too dynamic and you will never get a "green" unless all four are targeted simultaniously by shooters. The odds of that are rare. (ALSO, it looks bad in the paper "police SNIPERS kill 4 while in negotiations") Those situations fall into the hands of the negotiators and if all else fails, the entry guys for the up close and personal.(you want a REAL E-ticket ride, try that for a while. After a "good" one you have enough adrenalin in your system that you could kick start a 747) Other then really rare situations like that you deal with ones or twos. You are looking at placing shots through windows and doorways or through parking lots full of cars. It is not like an assault across an open plain. Individual shots are the expected and I have never talked to any other "brothers of the craft" who had to or were expected to engage more then one person at any event. The innocents life is always in danger if your shot was bad, but that has nothing to do with the rifle type. If you MISSED, why would you shoot again because SOMETHING had to be AFU. The other thing regarding multiples is that on each scenario the equipment changes. on a barricaded gunman you have a nice bolt gun. On a high risk warrant arrest/raid, the bolt gun stays in the case and a shorty of some kind comes into play. I had a M16 in my hands as much as or even more then the bolt gun also because in the old ghetto neighborhoods that .308 would eat up a lot of walls if not careful and the action would be VERY CLOSE. As for bench guns, remember, you have to be able to climb, crawl, rappell(oh for the younger days of youth) and squirrel yourself into some places a big long barrel just isn't practical no matter how accurate. Did we practise multiples at varying ranges and with speed, you bet. IF you can hit 3 balloon size "heads" from 50-150 yds in rapid fire (six seconds or less with bolt gun) that ONE shot with the hour setup is a no brainer. | |||
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Use what you a comfortable with. Both the model 70 and 700 are reliable actions. Test your rifle before you hunt with it and be confident in what you are using. I have killed an elephant, 3 cape buffalo, three brown bears, two balck bears a leapoard and over 20 types of "non-dangerous" game with a model 700. Even while hunting non-dangerous game you are generally hunting arround some type of animal that will bite, scratch or step on you. I have not had a problem with the push type action. I am sure some people have and am sure some people have also had problems with controlled feed actions. Use what you like and have tested. If you have not been out and done it, don't write about something you have read. Go do it! I am sure more hunters have been killed by animals they thought were dead and walked up to them without finishing the job than were killed by animals charging and had their rifle jam. Keep shooting until you are sure the beast is done, then put in one more for good measure and give it five minutes. Good luck hunting. | |||
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What was the reputation of the Winchester 70 for dangerous game during the thirty plus years that it was push-feed ? Was there a thirty plus year period that there were no controlled-feed dangerous game rifles except for custom built ones ? What did African PHs use during that time ? Obviously, many already had their rifles. But many new PHs had to come on board during the long a time period. And a new PH cannot always afford a fine Double Rifle when they're just starting out. Hammer [ 11-03-2003, 00:16: Message edited by: Hammer ] | |||
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Let's not forget, Paul Mauser spent the first 30 years of his career designing push feeds. He gave up after the model 91 because he could not get them reliable enough for his standards. The model 93 and later were the CRF models. When a rifle manufacturer resurrects a design that was scrapped by a genius 60 years prior, a question their credibility. I'm sure plenty of dangerous game has been taken with push feeds without error. That only makes the idea adequate, not preferable. I've never had a flat tire, but I won't leave the house without a full size spare in the rear of the jeep. | |||
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Kurt C has now put before us a very good challenge. Have there been ideas, discarded by geniuses after much effort, but later adopted and demonstrated useful by others ? This is not just in the field of dangerous game rifles, but any field of endeavor from medicine, physics, aviation, electronics, agriculture, telecommunications, etc. Kurt C, this is an excellent challenge. We'll have to have everyone put on their thinking caps for this one. The first ten defendable responses get an ATTA-BOY. Hammer | |||
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Hammer, I remember reading once that when Mauser was still toying with push feed turn bolts, he met with Remington concerning obtaining a US patent and selling manufacturing rights to them. Apparently they didn't think it was too good of a design back in the 1860's, but were satisfied with it 100 years later. Go figure. | |||
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Are any of John Browning's many designs ranging from single-shots to levers to automatics considered controlled-feed ? Hammer | |||
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Again, are any of John Browning's designs controlled-feed ? Hammer | |||
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No thoughts on overturning geniuses ? Hammer | |||
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Hammer, Controll feed is restricted to bolt guns on this forum from a DGR standpoint....Whats John Browning got to do with that, thats Paul Mausers relm.... | |||
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It is obvious that some will never own up to facts, even if it bit them in the ass. Opponents will always fabricate a counter argument. For example, if one were to demonstrate that CRFs "walk on water" the push feed crowd would say "yeah, that's because they probably can't swim." We are all wasting our collective breaths ( or electrons in this case) trying to "hammer" logic home. jorge | |||
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quote:Now here's a guy with far more than his share of good luck! | |||
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quote:There's no reason at all that a lever action couldn't incorporate a controlled feed mechanism just as easily as a bolt; the fact that no one has ever seen the need to do so would seem to speak volumes as to the merits of this subject. | |||
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Hammer, This is not relavent to Dangerous Game hunting, but it is to your example of military snipers. The majority of Carlos Hathcock's verified kills were with a.......Winchester Model 70. What does that prove. Absolutely nothing other than it was a Model 70. | |||
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I think we are discovering a handful of cases of guns failing. It can happen. We are also realizing (even if we didn't suspect it already)that most everyone has a very strong opinion on this issue. As one who has always thought dangerous game rifles should be Mauser style I have been re-thinking the issue. My Browning A-bolt (a push feed) in 375 H&H has always worked flawlessly. I know how to use it. Other than wanting it in 45 caliber for buffalo I would have no qualms about taking it into the field. My 95 Mauser has also worked flawlessly, but it is only 7X57. Taken kudu with it using Nosler 175 grain Partitions with no complaints, but after buffalo me thinks something stouter might at least give me more confidence. | |||
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Talked to a Weatherby historian. They have never had a lawsuit concerning the pushfeed system or extractor on the Weatherby Mark V. Never had a warranty claim. Did not thoroughly interrogate him concerning the exact definitions of lawsuits, claims, pushfeed, or extractor. That covers about fifty years of production. He commented that if it had been a problem, they could not have been in the business with this model this long given our litigous society. This, of course, is not the same as saying that one has never failed in the field. But they're not getting claims concerning this. Being in business and being called in frequently concerning problem issues, can attest that any reoccurring problem will for sure get the lawyers attention. Hammer | |||
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quote:He is lying. A former Wby gunsmith I know has talked of Mark V's in 378 and 460 coming back all the time for feeding problems. | |||
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