Much dangerous game lore was written when the British, the Afrikanners, and others were still using single-shot muzzle-loaders. Sometimes they had gun bearers with backups. Sometimes not. Heavy recoil from 4-bore rifles did not make second shots quick in any event.

Would we be willing to hunt dangerous game today with a single-shot muzzle-loader with no backup ?

Is the push-feed system worse than a single-shot muzzle-loader with no backup ?

Hammer

Hammer,

Great question. I am going to say that a person is best off with the particular gun he/she knows intimately. Trying to load a rifle upside down I would say would be more than difficult and a shot even more so while pinned down by some big critter, you would be better suited having a pistol strapped to your side in such a case. If you know your rifle well enough even in the most extreme case the rifles limitations should be instinctual as you quickly prepare for a shot.

I have never had an extractor fail, Scopes yes.

Doug

.

I believe a lot of it is psychological. The African hunters of yore took to the bush with the most effective firearms of their day. They had complete confidence in them.

Going in harm's way knowing that you could just as easily be armed with a more reliable firearm is disheartening, unless you are open to the idea that a malfunction will highten the challenge.

I should think that one's primary concern would be whether or not they will hit their target under pressure, not whether or not their rifle will function properly.

And yes, I would compare a Remington to a single shot muzzleloader.

I think Alf and Kurt make a lot of since...but if one wants to hunt Buff, Elephant and Lion with a pushfeed, then by all means do so, but I will suggest its not a wise decision IMO..However with a PH to save your bacon it'll probably be OK...

The other dangerous game actively hunted today is man. SWAT teams, sniper teams, and Special Ops teams all have need to have totally reliable rifles. Accuracy, one-shot stops, speed of handling, and failure leading to other people potentially getting seriously hurt -- all call for the best equipment. This equipment may be personally selected with expense being of little to no concern. These people practice a lot and might have good data on failure frequency.

What does their experience tell us about the failure rate of push-feed versus controlled-feed rifles ? About the reliability of Remington extractors or other push-feed systems ?

Hammer

Art,

I don't think the eperience of the high-speed, low-drag operators compares here. Sort of a grapes and grapefruit thing compared to what we do. If we look at Afghanistan, then we would choose semi-automatic or automatic rifles with weenie cartridges (so we can carry more ammo).

By the way I have been given to understand by some bush operators I know that a three-shot burst from a 7.62X51 will turn an elephant, but a 5.56 burst will not.

Most of the "tactical" or SWAT types and their suppliers are enjoying the benefits of using OPM to indulge themselves and keep the business going. (OPM = other peoples' money, usually tax dollars). I wish I could do that -- not.

jim

There is nothing wrong with using a pushfeed to shoot smallbore cartridges at long distances. The shooter is seldom in imminent danger. Shots are taken from a fixed position, often on a mat. Having to reload on the run is seldom an issue. Our snipers used the M21 system and were backed up by lot of firepower (SAW, M60, AC-130).

Most DGR's use cigar-size cartridges with a lot of bearing surface in the chamber. Add to that dirt, dust, movement and oppressive heat, and you are really pushing the capabilities of the extractor. I would compare dangerous game hunting more to close combat than sniping.

Hammer,
Special ops etc. is a whole nuther ball game and doesn't even come near to an application on dangerous game, except perhaps in a Bonzai charge....and Govt. purchasing has never impressed me a hell of a lot..

Realize that commercial 50 BMG rifles are not usually considered dangerous game rifles, but there is not much expense spared in the building of the high end models.

What kind of feed and extractor system is used by the various 50 BMG rifles ? Semiauto and bolt action ?

Hammer

I'm likin' this thread.
Interesting points by many.
I'm still planning on the A-Bolt II w/BOSS for my .375, and still have that 'niggling' feeling I should stick with Remington...

I must say thanks for confirming the issue of that Ross Seyfried article.
It's lost in my 'stacks' of gun magazines, but, at least I'll know which issue to look for!
I've used that article as ammo in the PF vs. CRF argument before.
I'm not scared or too freaked out about using a Remington for a DGR. The question was asked about 'who's had...?' and most of the responses have been characteristically 'opinions' or 'second hand' stories.
Even Saeed stated that his personal Remingtons were altered by choice, not necessity.
Very interesting thread.
It's why I like this place!

Have a Browning A-bolt in 375 H&H. Been to Africa with it and it worked just fine.

Babamkulu,

Ain't you the one that has needlessly risked their own life doing loops in pre-World War II wood and cloth airplanes ?

Hammer

[ 10-14-2003, 07:54: Message edited by: Hammer ]

Hi Guys:

Went to Africa in 2002 and shot a Big Buff, even walked into a posible charge situation, after he was wounded.

I wanted a custom rifle, shooting a 416 Remington Mag. I had it built by Less Knipe from The Varmint Shop. Shillen Barrel, Mike Koblus custom stock, NECS sights, Custom muzzle break, and action of my choice... Model 700 Remington. I wanted an action I used successfully and was very familur with almost all my life. It was trued and functioned perfectly before I left and after I came back, it never let me down.

I also Have a Mod70 CRF 375 H&H...Ruger 458 Mag Push Feed... and a custom 458 Lott CZ CRF on the way.

I would not hesitate to face any DG with my 416 Rem Mag custom Push Feed...

Regards... Jim P.

KurtC has commented that a lot of it is psychological, which is interesting.

If one has tested their push-feed rifle thousands of rounds without a malfunction and has built confidence in it, would it then be a better dangerous game rifle for them personally than a controlled-feed system with less personal testing ?

Hammer

Assuming that we are still talking about dangerous game cartridges, I don't think too many folks would have the funds or tolerance to shoot thousands of rounds through their rifle. Instead we have to rely on the experiences of others to bolster our confidence.

I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee. It has been utterly reliable for 125,000 miles and I enjoy driving it. Then I hear that this model and year has given a good number of folks problems, with the lining of the fuel tank flaking off and siezing up the fuel pump. It hasn't happened to me, but now I don't take it to far into the back country unless I have good back up plan.

The experiences of others has tainted my confidence in a totally reliable vehicle.

[ 10-14-2003, 07:53: Message edited by: KurtC ]

KurtC has a point.

Maybe we can get some of the government funds that are wasted on research concerning the sex life of turtles and get it redirected towards useful research on dangerous game rifles. We would need funding sufficient for at least thirty rifles of each persuasion. Probably thirty buffalo per gun. Thirty times thirty times two is eighteen-hundred buffalo under normal or intense hunting conditions.

But then we would have the difficulty of getting volunteers to take the time to hunt these buffalo. And we would need unbiased volunteers so as to not prejudice the test.

This would be difficult to organize. Don't know of a PH or outfitter who would be willing to accept such an experiment. And accepting government funds for this undertaking might bruise their conscience.

Who here knows how to apply for NSF grants ?

Didn't Cooper get funding for a training course on "Interpersonal Crisis Management at Conversational Distances" ?

In leui of government funds, do we have any other philanthropic sources ?

Hammer

[ 10-14-2003, 09:24: Message edited by: Hammer ]

Have hunted in Africa with a 95 Mauser in 7X57. It worked flawlessly. Also, have been there with a modern Ruger in 7-'06. It, too, had no problems.

While one will probably never find a heavy rifle that is worn out from shooting, one should practice with the heavies. Five rounds a week of live fire along with daily dry fire practice should keep one from being totally dangerous.

Have asked several local shooters if they have ever had an action or any part of one fail on a center-fire rifle. They all had stories they had heard second hand, but none has had a failure or been present to witness such.

Babamkulu,

Should one then suggest that ???

(A) Though failure rates might vary by model with some showing better performance than others, failure rates are extremely small and inconsequential. A Mercedes Benz might have its engine have a catastrophic failure one-tenth as often as a Ford, but neither have it often enough to be a purchasing decision issue.

(B) Failure rates under high stress conditions such as dangerous game hunting are not predicted by normal use and only surveys of people who do a great amount of dangerous game hunting are useful. What is enough dangerous game hunting to be a reliable source ? Perhaps only culling hunters should be counted.

(C) Something else.

???

Hammer

Maybe one could run an experiment using several rifles, shooters, and cartridges. Several Remington 700's in each heavy caliber offered. Let each shooter fire each gun multiple times - rapid fire. Work the bolts hard as one would do in a real live situation. After several hundred rounds we might start to get some data.

/

Folks,

Would it be useful to forward this entire forum thread to Remington so they can see how they are publicly viewed ?

Hammer

It wouldn't hurt anything, but I think they would just dismiss it. As long as sales are good they won't care. Dangerous game cartridges probably are a tiny fraction of their business. They probably already know all about their reputation.

Longbob,

Congratulations. I do remember seeing the 30 in 06 for sale too. There was one in 257 roberts also, that one got me very excited as I want a roberts and when I asked the person they said it appeared to be the original chambering of that rifle, which I figure must be rare since I only have seen the model 30's in 06.

Unfortunately I doubt that Remington will ever go back to something like that. :-(

To everybody else, I remembered the title of the article I mentioned, and found it, here is link

[url= http://www.african-hunter.com/it's_all_in_the_claw.htm]It's All In The Claw[/url]

Dago,

The Model 30 Express in a 257 Roberts would be really neat. As you said, the 30-06 is the most common and it is best for my needs. The only other one that I would really like to have is the 257 Roberts. They made only 22,800 of the Model 30 Express and they were in the following calibers.

30-06 Springfield
25 Remington
30 Remington
32 Remington
35 Remington
7mm Mauser
257 Roberts

I would take any of them, but the only ones that I would probably be able to hunt with would be the 30-06, 257 Roberts, or the 7mm Mauser.

I have read the article you posted in the past. It is a good article on African hunting and the rifles the author (and I) prefer.

We have heard about many failures with the Remington and other push-feed systems. Has anyone experienced a failure with a controlled-feed system ?

Hammer

Hammer said...

quote:

---

Didn't Cooper get funding for a training course on "Interpersonal Crisis Management at Conversational Distances" ?

---

That one is a treasure! I would have loved to see the look on the NSF inspector's face when he visited to see how their funding $$ were being spent. If they bothered to inspect at all.

I'm coming into this discussion late or really late since in my short time on AR I believe this is at least the second extensive argument I recall on this subject. I believe you are all correct and all full of it depending on what side you are on.

Nobody will ever win this debate because everybody has had different experiences and different levels of experience in the field.

Personally I have had no failures of any kind in the field with any type of rifle. Perhaps I'm just lucky.

I have a real soft spot for Remingtons because I have owned at least 30 of them and they basically all shot like gang busters and I have shot a load of game with them. On the other hand I did have a 243 that had a bad barrel and started spraying bullets within 50 rounds. Remington replaced the barrel and 2 triggers couldn't be adjusted and I installed new Timneys.

Now as far as Winchesters go I have owned several but the recent production ones just take too much tweaking for me. I recently brought 2 late model Winchesters up to speed and it cost me about $400 bucks each. They are just really rough. With a Remington I would have someboby do a bedding job, add a spacer to lengthen LOP and install a good pad. I can do the trigger. Cost would be about half that of doing the Winchester.

Of course this discussion is about Remington against all CRF rifles. It seems to me if you are particularly comfortable with whatever rifle you use that may be more important than the mechanics of it and may eliminate some of the human error factor that others have mentioned. I'm primarily using a custom 375 H&H on a Dakota action for everything now before that it was a Brown Precision 338 on a Remington action. In both instances a case could have been made for them being THE rifle. The fact is both worked perfectly everytime. Use what your comfortable with and let others do the same.

Dago,

This is a long shot but I have to ask. Do you have any idea if that Rem 30 in 257 Roberts is still available?

Thanks in advance.

Reed

Some of this discussion was forwarded to Jeff Cooper of Gunsite. As ya'll know, Cooper has been seriously studying guns and shooting issues for a long time around the world.

Today I received a letter from Cooper addressing some of the issues. Below is a short excerpt from the letter.

"Such failures that I have noted have been due to pilot error, such as short-stroking the bolt or mismanaging the safety switch. I have never been troubled with feeding in any bolt-action rifle, controlled feed or otherwise.

"I do object to the extraction system on the current Remington line. That little ring spring that serves as an extractor is not positive. I do consider it to be a design failure, but not a field breakage or malfunction.

"Any weapon can fail if it is mishandled, but that is hardly the gun's fault. Inferior gunsmithing, especially on the trigger action, can cause trouble, but again that is not the gun's fault"



Hammer

Jesus , this is more seriuos than I thought.
Other than Ross I don't know of a pro who carried a 700. Finn talked of using a push 70 and a lot of pros up north use WBY. Does the 700 work , yes sir. Did Ross' 416 work better than his Rigby or the Blaser. No. The 700 was less valuable than the Rigby and not as abusive as the blaser. He is right if it makes it through the first box it will work forever. But if it doesn't it will never work right. But that doesn't solve the other trouble of;
feeding
4 piece bolt
NON weather proof trigger
shitty bottom metal

ED

Ps. feel free to call me names, I only have 20 years field experince. It is still the truth.

I read this and lifted this post by G.Malmberg from the gunsmithing section right after my last posting on this subject. Seems like Malm has noted the same Achillies Heel in CRF's:

DemoSam,

Now you went and done it. Just watch, this topic is always good for a spark or two, but good point none-the-less. Probably the single biggest "life depends on it" game going, would have to be man hunting man. Being a former participant in such a game, I would have to say, that at no time in my life, has any material item ever brought me more of a warm and fuzzy feeling, than my M-14 and my M-16, both push feeds.

For me, one characteristic that a weapon must possess, in order to win a "sudden death" challenge, where both combatants are faced with retrieving spilled ammo from the ground and getting the first round off, would be the ability to drop a single round directly into the chamber, closing the bolt and KILL whatever it is that is trying to kill me! For the most part, push feeds meet and exceed this requirement.

Okay, most CRF's can be modified to provide a direct round feed if needed, but based on my personal experience in repairing both types of weapons over many years, should a failure to feed occur when feeding directly from the magazine, more often than not, the problem will occur to a CRF weapon... There, that ought to just about do it. Let the fire storm begin.


Regards,

Malm

Lotta good info here and just a little good natured ribbing.
Jim and Mark have probably hit it on the head tho... It is more important that you can get the safety off than if the next cartridge is going to feed. I would hate to have something about to bite and/or stomp me and be fumbling around because I couldn't remember if I had brought the Mod 70,700,77,550..etc.
Blacktailer

Never try to convience anyone that the item they just paid good money for is a piece of junk, Gun or whatever! it just does not work that way They do not want to know...

For me the claw extractor is a must, for some it is not, so be it, I don't mind at all........

One should always have a claw extractor when hunting the big cats, regardless of their action of preference.

[ 10-31-2003, 18:29: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Wow....this topic has got legs! I am a little late to the party but here is my 2 cents worth.

I think that the whole push feed/ control feed thing is being blown way out of proportion to the reality of the situation. How many safaris have everyone commenting here gone on? How many of those have included dangerous game? I bet not many on both scores. The point is this........in today�s Africa we are not Ivory Hunters or explorers going into the unknown for months on end. Most of us here are not PHs we are sportsman hunting a 7 or 10 day Safari while on vacation from the rat race of every day life. For most, dangerous game will be a once in a lifetime hunt for Cape Buffalo. Most will NEVER be able to afford am elephant hunt. I would say that for the average sportsman...being backed up by a professional it does not matter at all weather you use a Remington, Winchester, Ruger or anything else. As long as you have practiced with your rifle of choice and have any bugs worked out of it. I think this whole Remington bashing thing has gone way overboard. I know that some current rifles have quality issues BUT...send it back if you have a problem one, Remington will stand behind it (Before all the replies come in about the thing breaking while on Safari please note that I said use your gun enough BEFORE you leave to see if any problems exist)Bolts coming apart and broken extractors ARE NOT common problems with Remington actions, even the new ones.

The fact of the matter is this....99% of us commenting on this topic are in more danger everyday crossing the street than we will ever be in while hunting in Africa and I do not see anyone arguing over the fact that running shoes are better than wingtips for outrunning a taxi LOL.

If you have a 375+ big bore on a Remingtom, WBY Browning etc action and you can go on a Safari.....Jump at the opportunity. Have fun! Don't worry about the Wanabe PHs and Ivory hunters here! Once the bullet leaves the gun it doesn't know if it was fired by a CRF or Pushfeed. Neither will the Buff on the receiving end.

[ 10-31-2003, 07:46: Message edited by: Iron Buck ]

"Once the bullet leaves the gun it doesn't know if it was fired by a CRF or Pushfeed. Neither will the Buff on the receiving end."

Iron Buck,

Can you prove it ?

Hammer