quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
All I ask is you do not ever tip in my country.

Exacly mate .... when in Rome ....

Do restaurants, bars, hotels, etc charge a service charge on their bills? Just trying to understand the "no tipping ever" culture down under.......

Certainly not that I am aware off. When I go to a restaurant, bar or hotel I have only ever seen my bill with the advertised price of the food, booze or whatever on it and that is what I would pay. No different than going into any shop, supermarket, garage, etc and paying the advertised price. With the introduction by our Government of better pay and alternate holidays for those employees who work on public holidays, some restaurants and cafes were adding a surcharge on their bill to cover the extra cost of wages but this was quickly stopped when many others did not follow suit and the public backlashed those that attempted this. We accept that if there are extra costs to do business, put it on the cost up front don't back hand it by way of tipping.

I do not really understand the tipping mentality as it seems to apply only to certain sections of the community. Do lawyers, surgeons, doctors, dentists, teachers, etc, etc, get tips in those countries where this is practiced. When I had cancer a lot of good people from the oncologist down, all did their jobs in a most professional manner and provided the care to cure me. Not one of these people would ever expect a tip, in fact they would be highly offended by it. Just as I do not expect a tip when I do a service for any of these people in my job capacity. We all do and expect nothing less than a good job and service.

It seems to me that some groups of service providers, and they are no different than any other person providing goods and service from the postman to the doctor, seem to think they are privileged where they can demand extra money by way of a tip for their service. Make no mistake tipping is not voluntary as in almost all cases it has become the norm, an expectation, and in many cases is advertised (the safari business) with levels set in advance.

Saeed has summed it up nicely. Again, please do not perpetrate this evil practice in my country, you are most welcome here and you do not have to tip to enjoy what we offer.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
All I ask is you do not ever tip in my country.

Exacly mate .... when in Rome ....

Do restaurants, bars, hotels, etc charge a service charge on their bills? Just trying to understand the "no tipping ever" culture down under.......

Certainly not that I am aware off. When I go to a restaurant, bar or hotel I have only ever seen my bill with the advertised price of the food, booze or whatever on it and that is what I would pay. No different than going into any shop, supermarket, garage, etc and paying the advertised price. With the introduction by our Government of better pay and alternate holidays for those employees who work on public holidays, some restaurants and cafes were adding a surcharge on their bill to cover the extra cost of wages but this was quickly stopped when many others did not follow suit and the public backlashed those that attempted this. We accept that if there are extra costs to do business, put it on the cost up front don't back hand it by way of tipping.

I do not really understand the tipping mentality as it seems to apply only to certain sections of the community. Do lawyers, surgeons, doctors, dentists, teachers, etc, etc, get tips in those countries where this is practiced. When I had cancer a lot of good people from the oncologist down, all did their jobs in a most professional manner and provided the care to cure me. Not one of these people would ever expect a tip, in fact they would be highly offended by it. Just as I do not expect a tip when I do a service for any of these people in my job capacity. We all do and expect nothing less than a good job and service.

It seems to me that some groups of service providers, and they are no different than any other person providing goods and service from the postman to the doctor, seem to think they are privileged where they can demand extra money by way of a tip for their service. Make no mistake tipping is not voluntary as in almost all cases it has become the norm, an expectation, and in many cases is advertised (the safari business) with levels set in advance.

Saeed has summed it up nicely. Again, please do not perpetrate this evil practice in my country, you are most welcome here and you do not have to tip to enjoy what we offer.

Interesting! I would honestly prefer the no tip system.

What do you do when you travel to other countries where tipping is more the norm? If you have ever been to the US, did you tip a waiter?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
All I ask is you do not ever tip in my country.

Exacly mate .... when in Rome ....

Do restaurants, bars, hotels, etc charge a service charge on their bills? Just trying to understand the "no tipping ever" culture down under.......

Certainly not that I am aware off. When I go to a restaurant, bar or hotel I have only ever seen my bill with the advertised price of the food, booze or whatever on it and that is what I would pay. No different than going into any shop, supermarket, garage, etc and paying the advertised price. With the introduction by our Government of better pay and alternate holidays for those employees who work on public holidays, some restaurants and cafes were adding a surcharge on their bill to cover the extra cost of wages but this was quickly stopped when many others did not follow suit and the public backlashed those that attempted this. We accept that if there are extra costs to do business, put it on the cost up front don't back hand it by way of tipping.

I do not really understand the tipping mentality as it seems to apply only to certain sections of the community. Do lawyers, surgeons, doctors, dentists, teachers, etc, etc, get tips in those countries where this is practiced. When I had cancer a lot of good people from the oncologist down, all did their jobs in a most professional manner and provided the care to cure me. Not one of these people would ever expect a tip, in fact they would be highly offended by it. Just as I do not expect a tip when I do a service for any of these people in my job capacity. We all do and expect nothing less than a good job and service.

It seems to me that some groups of service providers, and they are no different than any other person providing goods and service from the postman to the doctor, seem to think they are privileged where they can demand extra money by way of a tip for their service. Make no mistake tipping is not voluntary as in almost all cases it has become the norm, an expectation, and in many cases is advertised (the safari business) with levels set in advance.

Saeed has summed it up nicely. Again, please do not perpetrate this evil practice in my country, you are most welcome here and you do not have to tip to enjoy what we offer.

Interesting! I would honestly prefer the no tip system.

What do you do when you travel to other countries where tipping is more the norm? If you have ever been to the US, did you tip a waiter?

I have not had the chance to travel to countries where tipping is prevalent or the norm. I did spend over a year in and around Germany and neighboring countries and did not see a tipping practice. My friends there, some of them very well off, said that tipping was not practiced much and they did not seem to do it. What practice there probably was there would have been unfortunately introduced by the occupying American forces. My various trips to our neighbors over the ditch in Australia is great as they too do not encourage tipping. Possibly like here in NZ, the food and safari sectors try it on but this should be resisted by all.
Name your price, if I think it is reasonable I will pay, if I don't I will go elsewhere, don't name a price and then expect extra because you happened to have done a good job, I expect nothing but a good job as you should from be. I don't need to high-note my way through life.

That's me anyway, maybe I'm a minority.

quote:

Originally posted by TANZ-PH:
[
Well said Buzz! I too have never made a dime (or shilling) from the company, (or kick backs) on taxidermy, side trips, fishing, air charters, curio shopping, etc. I do these as part of my job, and as a courtesy & favor to the client to make his safari more enjoyable & memorable. I do not see these as a opportunity to make some extra money.

Quite frankly you would be entitled to do so.
You see this commission/ kickback system in many industry's so why should guiding be any different.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:


First off, I stopped buying into the bull crap of “come as a client and leave as a friend.” It seems no other group of workers on the planet are better at butt kissing to get a tip than Africans, and PHs in particular. One gent I was with was a holy born again Christian for one client and a drinking and hard swearing bloke with the next. That is well and good but where do the PHs duties end? At the end of the hunt? I have come to think not so.

Cheers
Cal

Contrary to the above statement - I have found that 90% of all hunters (clients), irrespective of nationality, are generally very easy to get along with and easy to host on a Safari - compared to the "Photographic Clientele". In saying that, building a genuine friendship with hunters is almost a given so it really surprises me that the friendships are seen as false!

I also found that with several 'clients' that became really good buddies and inevitably repeated annually , receiving a tip was awkward so didn't get one which was fine. I reackon some of the other PH's that post here would agree.

I guess, each to their own!

Cheers,
Brent

In all my guiding years I have met many nice clients that I would love to guide again. I've also met some that really became great friends - not because of the hunting but because we share and like the same things and are interested in the same things. Three of them have become such close friends that we regularly visit each other and all three of them got an invite to my wedding.

There were the one or two clients that I would be better off never guiding again. Enough about that.

I do not guide because of a tip. It is my way of life. If you feel like leaving one, it is up to you. I feel insulted if any of the ones that became friends ever offer me a tip and they know it.
I do not get any kick-back from any taxidermist or any other entity for that matter. I do the work I do because it is what I love and what I know.

Interesting discussion. I'll take the opposite side of the debate: I very much like the institution of tipping. If you figure in some median tip amount as part of your actual cost of the hunt, then varying up or down lets you very directly show your pleasure or displeasure at the experience you received. That said, I will note that I've never been on a safari where I wasn't highly impressed by the professionalism of the PH's and the immense hard work of the camp staffs. Echoing MJines's comment above, due diligence is critical. Ask for a list of client references, and call every one you can.

Gentlemen,

Tipping for a job well done is standard safari fare. A bit of beer money for me and the staff is much appreciated and is considered a bonus.

I once gave a client a tip but it was verbal.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Like Buzz I and almost all PH's I have worked alongside for the last 27 years work as hard for a non-tipping Aussie as we do for a big tipping Yank.

for the record - there are plenty of Aussies who would/will leave a tip for camp/hunt staff, especially when in Africa or North America. I am one... I dont tip a lot - but I leave what I can. So too in Australia... plenty of people these days leaving tips in restaurants and bars. I worked in a bar for seven years .... the girls got pleny of tips but the guys didnt get much. It wasnt expected but it was nice. After a night in a bar in Australia I will invariably give the staff a small tip to say thanks if they work hard ... I know it is a shitty job..

To say that tipping in Australia is foreign is not entirely correct... but it certainly isnt necessary or expected.

Without exception I agree,I have been disappointed on every major hunt i went on. The four plains game hunts were successful. Record book heads were never a prerequisite to any of my hunts, therefore, no opportunity for a dissapointment in that experience. Goo deal for all. But I believe people when they lie to me. At first I thought it was because I booked with less than top tier Ph., and organizations. Not so. I have never booked with the "best" Ph's in the industry. Unlike Saeed I do not have a large war chest to spend on hunts, I have to choose as best I can to get as much as I can. In every case I was over sold on service/experience and under delivered on expectation. I suspect if african hunters were honest with themselves they might realize the same. One can not complain until the hunt is over, money spent, undelivered expectations realized. Then you feel the burn. When it happens irrespective of due diligence after much thought and consideration, one realizes how much is at stake when booking. If we could pay after the hunt one might get a better shake on reality of hunting.How many have booked a hunt in Africa and were told they should have high degree of success and at the end of the day "thats hunting" is all they can say about the lack of success. This has happened to me on three major safaris read Tanzania, Zambia, Tanzania. For very rich folks, that go often, the outfitters know that disappointment and outrage will abound if the hunts were oversold on expectation. Do you really think anyone would try to shaft Saeed?? Send shabby work to him or use the excuse that on this buffalo hunt the buffalo just are not here this time ?? Do you think that would work our good for the outfitter or PH? Now someone on one safari every 3 years on a limited budget, he is easy. No one will notice if he gets screwed!!! I have posted hunt reports on the outfitters I have used and disappointed by on the hunt reports. They basically were pipe dreams that never materialized and the outfitters use my dreams against me knowing that at the end of the day there is not way to enforce the contract, and if you complain then it is you the consumer that is wrong. You should not expect to see elephants on an elephant hunt. Don't expect to shoot a lion on a lion hunt. There are good representative species of most everything on license. Doesn't mean anything if we could not produce for your sorry out of shape old butt, the same one that stood face to face with you when you booked the deal. Every time it someone but them or the over sold concession at fault. How about refunding the difference in a full bag hunt and a dangerous game hunt if the hunt is unsuccessful???? It will never happen without a fight.

Gents:
A reply to some and a clarification.
First, thanks all for your input. I’m sorry that I may have offended some. That was not my intention but it seems my point was not taken in context: Will a PH offer better service after the hunt if his tip is based on all aspects of said hunt as to trophy expediting? That said, some comments:

MJines: I agree I should have researched more prior to hunting but my choice(s) were based on other’s recommendations.

Buzz: Perhaps I need to clarify. I didn’t have 13 bad hunts and all PHs were not bad. When I stated most or all of my hunts leave something to be desired, that included PHs (of course) as well as taxidermy companies, air freight, commercial flights, and foreign customs officials.

Code4: Thanks.

Scott: Looking forward to our Australia outing. The .600 is ready to go!

Shumba: “Challenging client” is a good point but I think it is the opposite in my case--I am too easy going. I don’t argue with anyone, let most things pass by, and rethink the situation later on. See Nganga’s commentary. It is not 13 PHs in a row. I have had several PHs on 13 hunts--two were excellent, one ok, and to some I was an American ATM machine.

Mboga biga bwana: No comment! lol!

Will: Well said.

JTHunt: Inflammatory? In my situation(s), it is true. The comment of butt-kissing has been the rule on many of my African hunts and vacations. I expect it somewhat from the staff but not from a PH (emphasis on the word Professional).

CrossL: I understand your point, but it is not me. Examples: When my trophies were delivered to Amsterdam due to an addressing error, it was amusing to see the PH and the taxidermy company blame each other. When in Tanzania for buffalo, elephant, lion, leopard, hippo, and croc and my PH decides to burn brush for 5 days of my daily rate to “help track buffalo.” Buff were rare that year (2006) and my PH steered me away from buffalo twice when we were close. He was saving them for his next hunt. A letter to him asking for discussion was ignored and he still won’t discuss the issue. A Zimbabwe PH asked me to give the staff tips to him to keep his chain of command in order and he kept the tips. He also did not turn over my trophy fee for buffalo to the authorities and it took two years for me to get my buff. The same chap gave his staff money for drinking after my buff but before my hippo. I didn’t get the hippo! A Zim PH has brought me up to soft-bossed young bulls an urged me to shoot (I assume so he gets the trophy fee). A Zim PH who told me on the first night how much of a tip was expected, his hatred of the black race, and how he and his company will save the best trophies for the higher paying and higher tipping clients. And, the issue of the three skulls in a crate with no packing at all. So, in a nutshell, it is not me. And, as mentioned prior, it is not 13 for 13. There are other issues too outside the control of the PH.

Nganga: Thanks.

HBH: Well said.

Brett: Thanks, mate. See you soon for a doubles shoot at my place.

BBruce: Well said.

Lb404: Very well said!

Last of all see the PHs that reply here are the upfront and gentlemanly type. I notice the low end of the profession seem to stay away from these forums.

In closing, thanks again for your comments and I hope I clarified some issues, but I refer you back to my original question: will a PH work more after the hunt (and the hunter is gone) if his tip is depending on it? Taxidermy and expediting issues mainly.
Cheers all,
Cal

Cal,

First I'd like to say I'm so sorry that your safaris and PH's have not lived up to your expectations. I have not had that experience at all. I had one guy that was the most arrogant a-hole I've ever met. A Frenchman that fit the stereotype and a guy who had major personal problems during the safari but I still had good hunts with them althought not perfect. Otherwise I've been very happy with my PH's and I honestly have never felt they were kissing my butt to get a good tip.

If a PH or safari operator does not do a good job with the after safari details unless he gets a big tip he should be avoided at all costs. That is not the norm at all in my experience.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Gentlemen,

Tipping for a job well done is standard safari fare. A bit of beer money for me and the staff is much appreciated and is considered a bonus.

I once gave a client a tip but it was verbal.

Noted, and excellent. A hundred is plenty for beer. I'll make sure I attribute that figure when I tip my PH.

Mark, do you think even for an instant, that a outfitting company you go with would ever try to mess you over. You are an insider and sell hunts. Surely if ever a good hunt would be forth coming it would be with an outfitter. The Ph's would bust their butt to insure that you got a good hunt. Future bookings depend on a good relationship. How could you sell a hunt with folks that overestimate the product they try to deliver. You have to realize that some of us fall through the cracks on a safari and never have the same opportunities.I have put off my next safari for three years as the last one still stings quite a bit. Trust takes time to evolve....

I have never been to Africa but I have hunted with giudes in NZ & Canada. In NZ we do not have a culture of tipping ....more on that later. In Canada I had not even considered tipping until I was in camp & heard talk about tipping by 2 South African hunters who were leaving the next day. They gave me an indiaction of what they paid the guide & cook (2 hunters). The head guide worked well but was all the time moaning & bad mouthing the outfitter who had bought out his business a year earlier! That was a real pain to put up with for 5 days. The young apprentice guide on the last day was fantastic and great to hunt with & he got me my nice colour phase bear in the last 10 minutes of the hunt. I am still friends with him after 4 years and chat on facebook!

Now regarding tipping in NZ (& Australia I presume). We have strict laws on minimum wages even for youth. My daughter turned 16 about 6 weeks ago and qualified for a higher wage at the supermarket - she now gets $15 and hour for stacking shelves in the evening! In November when she was on a lower youth rate, she still made $13 an hour for her first pay packet. She saved about $1000 over the summer working part time.

I realise that service staff in the US get about $6 an hour as minimum wage & that is the real problem. It is sad that the US is so far behind in paying fair wages to ALL workers.

I get really annoyed when hunting guides in NZ & Australia try to make it sound like it ok for visiting hunter to tip here! I think that is just skimming a foriegner who is unaware of local cultural norms. They know that their hunting & trophy rates include a very fair income.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
All I ask is you do not ever tip in my country.

Exacly mate .... when in Rome ....

Do restaurants, bars, hotels, etc charge a service charge on their bills? Just trying to understand the "no tipping ever" culture down under.......

Certainly not that I am aware off. When I go to a restaurant, bar or hotel I have only ever seen my bill with the advertised price of the food, booze or whatever on it and that is what I would pay. No different than going into any shop, supermarket, garage, etc and paying the advertised price. With the introduction by our Government of better pay and alternate holidays for those employees who work on public holidays, some restaurants and cafes were adding a surcharge on their bill to cover the extra cost of wages but this was quickly stopped when many others did not follow suit and the public backlashed those that attempted this. We accept that if there are extra costs to do business, put it on the cost up front don't back hand it by way of tipping.

I do not really understand the tipping mentality as it seems to apply only to certain sections of the community. Do lawyers, surgeons, doctors, dentists, teachers, etc, etc, get tips in those countries where this is practiced. When I had cancer a lot of good people from the oncologist down, all did their jobs in a most professional manner and provided the care to cure me. Not one of these people would ever expect a tip, in fact they would be highly offended by it. Just as I do not expect a tip when I do a service for any of these people in my job capacity. We all do and expect nothing less than a good job and service.

It seems to me that some groups of service providers, and they are no different than any other person providing goods and service from the postman to the doctor, seem to think they are privileged where they can demand extra money by way of a tip for their service. Make no mistake tipping is not voluntary as in almost all cases it has become the norm, an expectation, and in many cases is advertised (the safari business) with levels set in advance.

Saeed has summed it up nicely. Again, please do not perpetrate this evil practice in my country, you are most welcome here and you do not have to tip to enjoy what we offer.

Interesting! I would honestly prefer the no tip system.

What do you do when you travel to other countries where tipping is more the norm? If you have ever been to the US, did you tip a waiter?

I have not had the chance to travel to countries where tipping is prevalent or the norm. I did spend over a year in and around Germany and neighboring countries and did not see a tipping practice. My friends there, some of them very well off, said that tipping was not practiced much and they did not seem to do it. What practice there probably was there would have been unfortunately introduced by the occupying American forces. My various trips to our neighbors over the ditch in Australia is great as they too do not encourage tipping. Possibly like here in NZ, the food and safari sectors try it on but this should be resisted by all.
Name your price, if I think it is reasonable I will pay, if I don't I will go elsewhere, don't name a price and then expect extra because you happened to have done a good job, I expect nothing but a good job as you should from be. I don't need to high-note my way through life.

That's me anyway, maybe I'm a minority.

quote:

In all my guiding years I have met many nice clients that I would love to guide again. I've also met some that really became great friends - not because of the hunting but because we share and like the same things and are interested in the same things. Three of them have become such close friends that we regularly visit each other and all three of them got an invite to my wedding.

There were the one or two clients that I would be better off never guiding again. Enough about that.

I do not guide because of a tip. It is my way of life. If you feel like leaving one, it is up to you. I feel insulted if any of the ones that became friends ever offer me a tip and they know it.
I do not get any kick-back from any taxidermist or any other entity for that matter. I do the work I do because it is what I love and what I know.

Admittedly my experiences are American/Canadian, not African, but I agree 100% with what Mr. Rabe stated above. I have had the pleasure of guiding a few AR members for javelina in west Texas and a couple of deer/hog hunts here in north Texas, all have been great folks, and all have gave me something at ther end of the hunt.

The best however, is bbruce from Ticonderoga New York. He and his sons came down a few years back annd hjunted javelina with me and Lora, and we had a great time. He came back down here this year on business and did some feral hog hunting. Unfortunately the hogs were not co-operating, but Lora and I really enjoyed having him in our home for the time he was here.

The neatest part of the deal however, was he was in a position, to bring me 3 - 30 packs of Genessee beer all the way from New York. That is about as special as it gets in my little world.

I have told many individuals that if they wanted to become a guide for the tips, don't even go into the business. yes, I have made some money as a guide, both from the price of the hunts and the tips I have received over the years. the freason I guide is because I love to hunt, and guiding allows me to be doing just that far more often and for a longer period of time than hunting on my own.

The reason I list tips/gratuities as not being included in the hunt price, is simply because it is one of those questions that people will invaribly ask. If I get a tip, I figure it is because the client thinks I did a good job, not because they feel like they have too.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Certainly not that I am aware off. When I go to a restaurant, bar or hotel I have only ever seen my bill with the advertised price of the food, booze or whatever on it and that is what I would pay. No different than going into any shop, supermarket, garage, etc and paying the advertised price. With the introduction by our Government of better pay and alternate holidays for those employees who work on public holidays, some restaurants and cafes were adding a surcharge on their bill to cover the extra cost of wages but this was quickly stopped when many others did not follow suit and the public backlashed those that attempted this. We accept that if there are extra costs to do business, put it on the cost up front don't back hand it by way of tipping.

I do not really understand the tipping mentality as it seems to apply only to certain sections of the community. Do lawyers, surgeons, doctors, dentists, teachers, etc, etc, get tips in those countries where this is practiced. When I had cancer a lot of good people from the oncologist down, all did their jobs in a most professional manner and provided the care to cure me. Not one of these people would ever expect a tip, in fact they would be highly offended by it. Just as I do not expect a tip when I do a service for any of these people in my job capacity. We all do and expect nothing less than a good job and service.

It seems to me that some groups of service providers, and they are no different than any other person providing goods and service from the postman to the doctor, seem to think they are privileged where they can demand extra money by way of a tip for their service. Make no mistake tipping is not voluntary as in almost all cases it has become the norm, an expectation, and in many cases is advertised (the safari business) with levels set in advance.

Saeed has summed it up nicely. Again, please do not perpetrate this evil practice in my country, you are most welcome here and you do not have to tip to enjoy what we offer.

I travel to New Zealand on a regular basis and I have noticed that the restaurants around Auckland now have a place to add a tip on the credit card slip when I pay for meals. 10 years ago I never saw that.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Certainly not that I am aware off. When I go to a restaurant, bar or hotel I have only ever seen my bill with the advertised price of the food, booze or whatever on it and that is what I would pay. No different than going into any shop, supermarket, garage, etc and paying the advertised price. With the introduction by our Government of better pay and alternate holidays for those employees who work on public holidays, some restaurants and cafes were adding a surcharge on their bill to cover the extra cost of wages but this was quickly stopped when many others did not follow suit and the public backlashed those that attempted this. We accept that if there are extra costs to do business, put it on the cost up front don't back hand it by way of tipping.

I do not really understand the tipping mentality as it seems to apply only to certain sections of the community. Do lawyers, surgeons, doctors, dentists, teachers, etc, etc, get tips in those countries where this is practiced. When I had cancer a lot of good people from the oncologist down, all did their jobs in a most professional manner and provided the care to cure me. Not one of these people would ever expect a tip, in fact they would be highly offended by it. Just as I do not expect a tip when I do a service for any of these people in my job capacity. We all do and expect nothing less than a good job and service.

It seems to me that some groups of service providers, and they are no different than any other person providing goods and service from the postman to the doctor, seem to think they are privileged where they can demand extra money by way of a tip for their service. Make no mistake tipping is not voluntary as in almost all cases it has become the norm, an expectation, and in many cases is advertised (the safari business) with levels set in advance.

Saeed has summed it up nicely. Again, please do not perpetrate this evil practice in my country, you are most welcome here and you do not have to tip to enjoy what we offer.

I travel to New Zealand on a regular basis and I have noticed that the restaurants around Auckland now have a place to add a tip on the credit card slip when I pay for meals. 10 years ago I never saw that.

Frank you are right in your observations, although we do not have a tipping culture here, for whatever reason the hospitality industry and now the guiding industry seem to think they have a privileged position in society that they rightfully should be paid tips. This is utter crap and should not be perpetrated by anyone.

As Nakihunter has so clearly set out above, we pay proper wages in NZ based on experience and qualifications. If those on lower wages want more then they get more qualified and work harder.

Some years ago I did experience the 'tipping culture' here in NZ when staying at a hotel and having a meal in the dining room. Went to pay my bill by credit card and noticed the waiter hovering around while I settled up. He didn't hover any longer when he saw nothing coming his way, the cheeky a-hole.
He had done his job, no complaints, but he did no more than any other kiwi would, an honest job for his pay.

In my books, tipping is a backhanding, grovelling, dishonest, demeaning and any other similar adjective you can to add. No place in my country.

lb404,

I understand what your saying but you have to realize that I was in the same position as you for many years before I got into the business.

Mark

There is a side to the whole tipping/gratuity issue that has not been covered and might make things a little clearer. Some may not see it that way, but this is just based on my experiences here in America.

Customers/clients, and this applies more to the restaraunt/bar industry than hunting/fishing, have found out, especially in the larger metropolitan areas that the freer they are with tips during an evening on the town, the better service they will get.

Yes, if the industry was forced to pay their workers at the same scale workers in other industries in the U.S. are paid, tipping would possibly not have became such an accepted/expected concept that has bled over into others parts of life.

People out for a spur of the moment night on the town in some place like Dallas/NYC/Los Angeles, where every place just about requires resevations, a quick conversation and a $100.00 bill can take someone with no reservation, to getting the next available table.

Folks that routinely go out like that go back to the same place over and over again and get the reputation of being a "Good" or "Great" customer, and the fo;lks that go out with them see how the game works, and they become the same quality customers.

It is funny how "Good" or "Great" get equated with "big spender". I guess (never thought about before) that is another reason I like living is a not small but tiny town where the adjatives like good and great are used to describe a person for other than financial reasons.l

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
There is a side to the whole tipping/gratuity issue that has not been covered and might make things a little clearer. Some may not see it that way, but this is just based on my experiences here in America.

Customers/clients, and this applies more to the restaraunt/bar industry than hunting/fishing, have found out, especially in the larger metropolitan areas that the freer they are with tips during an evening on the town, the better service they will get.

Yes, if the industry was forced to pay their workers at the same scale workers in other industries in the U.S. are paid, tipping would possibly not have became such an accepted/expected concept that has bled over into others parts of life.

People out for a spur of the moment night on the town in some place like Dallas/NYC/Los Angeles, where every place just about requires resevations, a quick conversation and a $100.00 bill can take someone with no reservation, to getting the next available table.

Folks that routinely go out like that go back to the same place over and over again and get the reputation of being a "Good" or "Great" customer, and the fo;lks that go out with them see how the game works, and they become the same quality customers.

I can understand your point. All the Hollywood movies we see on TV always show some guy giving a porter/bartender/taxi driver a tip up front or after for a job done.

Differences in thinking. Especially in the larger metropolitan areas. There are simply so many people, that nobody stands out in particular, so they find ways of standing out. Being free with ones money works as well or better than anything else.

Mark, The real disappointment is that no matter how much money you spend on a safari from 6K to 100K there is no gurantee you will be treated right. you can only go on what you are sold i mean told. when they hold all the aces, daily rate, trophy fee money, control over the animals hunted, all of which can be screwed with on site. I am looking for an outfitter that will take half the money up front and the other half when I get my stuff and am satisfied. That needs to be the standard for the industry. Pay up for the trophy fees while in Africa but the rest of the funds contingent upon the hunt going as advertised. I have used four world class Ph's. They have been discussed and recommended on this forum. I would never be screwed by them again. They call and invite me to their tables at SCI and DSC but I pay them only a courtesy visit. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. I am equally sure that there ARE several honorable and good business men that will do what they say and when I find such an outfitter Ph, I will save my safari dollars someone deserving of them. If I never go again well, I can live with that, I will go on plains game hunts. They are truely the best hunting value today. Sometimes prices are a bit steep.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Mark, The real disappointment is that no matter how much money you spend on a safari from 6K to 100K there is no gurantee you will be treated right. you can only go on what you are sold i mean told. when they hold all the aces, daily rate, trophy fee money, control over the animals hunted, all of which can be screwed with on site. I am looking for an outfitter that will take half the money up front and the other half when I get my stuff and am satisfied. That needs to be the standard for the industry. Pay up for the trophy fees while in Africa but the rest of the funds contingent upon the hunt going as advertised. I have used four world class Ph's. They have been discussed and recommended on this forum. I would never be screwed by them again. They call and invite me to their tables at SCI and DSC but I pay them only a courtesy visit. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. I am equally sure that there ARE several honorable and good business men that will do what they say and when I find such an outfitter Ph, I will save my safari dollars someone deserving of them. If I never go again well, I can live with that, I will go on plains game hunts. They are truely the best hunting value today. Sometimes prices are a bit steep.

Sounds fair and I would hunt with you on those conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Mark, The real disappointment is that no matter how much money you spend on a safari from 6K to 100K there is no gurantee you will be treated right. you can only go on what you are sold i mean told. when they hold all the aces, daily rate, trophy fee money, control over the animals hunted, all of which can be screwed with on site. I am looking for an outfitter that will take half the money up front and the other half when I get my stuff and am satisfied. That needs to be the standard for the industry. Pay up for the trophy fees while in Africa but the rest of the funds contingent upon the hunt going as advertised. I have used four world class Ph's. They have been discussed and recommended on this forum. I would never be screwed by them again. They call and invite me to their tables at SCI and DSC but I pay them only a courtesy visit. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. I am equally sure that there ARE several honorable and good business men that will do what they say and when I find such an outfitter Ph, I will save my safari dollars someone deserving of them. If I never go again well, I can live with that, I will go on plains game hunts. They are truely the best hunting value today. Sometimes prices are a bit steep.

I am under the impression that you are a very hard man to please. Thats no critisism by any means, it just indicates your standards.

If you are hard to please, your proposal would be very scary for any safari operator to host. Half down, safari complete, you return to your home thousands of miles and many non extradition treaties away and months after you are home and on your sofa, cocktail in your left hand tv remote in your right hand you decide whether to pay the remaining fifty percent. Arbitration is out of the question, lawsuits a waste, revenge laughable, you just get to decide and thats the end. You have the trophies, you've taken the time and resources, ( as you propose,) you are immune from legal action, you hold all the cards and you are very hard to please. What an incredible gamble the operator takes!

Consider the recent dust up between Llamapacker and Nixon Dizingai. Noone knows who Llamapacker really is and if in fact he/ she/ it did really steal from Nixon theres no real possibility of gaining compensation from Llama not any real opportunity to hurt it profesionally or personally. On the other hand, Dizingai's name and reputation was drug thru the mud on several occasions for months and all here on the internet where at least two businessmen were trying to profit for and from him! Not only was Dizingai hurt by the theivery, he was additionally hurt by all the well intentioned press here on AR by his so called supporters! "Friends like these hey Dude?"

As a business man I find your proposal impossible. Mine own well being is to me more important than yours and I would be un able to allow such a gamble with a customer as hard to please as you are.

Currently I am engaged with a customer who has agreed to a payment scheme of 40%down befor the job starts, 25% at a phase of completion, 25% at the next phase of completion, and 10% when the project is complete. If the customer decides they are unhappy at the end of the transaction and refuses to pay I am only out 10% an in theory I profit more than 10% so I'll actually loose nothing. I structure the contract this way so I am specifically protected from customers like you and again, I mean no offense!

Expecting a foregin entity to agree to extend themselves as you suggest is aggresive to be generous.

Yes I do see that Fairgame has agreed to your terms and no I don't think he's doing the right thing for him and his.

quote:

..... I am looking for an outfitter that will take half the money up front and the other half when I get my stuff and am satisfied. That needs to be the standard for the industry. Pay up for the trophy fees while in Africa but the rest of the funds contingent upon the hunt going as advertised.....

lb404:

Firstly, you need to identify an agent who is totally reliable and above board – there are however and unfortunately so, too many “fly-by-night” individuals with the gift of the gab who will sell you a hunt which will more than likely take you up shitty creek. These are the guys you need to watch out for.
Here on AR there are several well-know agents of high repute whom you can trust and will secure you a hunt with an outfitter that meets his/your standards and requirements, who will hold all funds in escrow until the hunt is over and be the mediator for any unforeseen event. Booking directly with the outfitter is another viable proposition as long as you know with whom you are dealing or from multiple recommendations by other forum members – this option however does not offer any guarantees as there will be no arbitrators involved should a dispute arise.
Secondly, an outfitter’s responsibility ends the moment the trophies have been shipped to the address which has been provided to him by the client – we are to assume that being an outfitter of high repute what had been offered was met to satisfaction, the trophies properly cared for, packed and expedited within the prescribed parameters. What happens after that is really none of his concern or responsibility as he has fulfilled his side of the bargain. Should something happen to your trophies while in transit the outfitter can neither be blamed nor held liable; the matter is out of his hands once the consignment has been taken over by the carrier.
Choose your own taxidermist, preferably in your own backyard.

Lastly, you have mentioned 4 unnamed "world class" PHs that apparently screwed you - maybe you shouldn't have said that without further backing of the accusation.

quote:

Consider the recent dust up between Llamapacker and Nixon Dizingai. Noone knows who Llamapacker really is and if in fact he/ she/ it did really steal from Nixon theres no real possibility of gaining compensation from Llama not any real opportunity to hurt it profesionally or personally. On the other hand, Dizingai's name and reputation was drug thru the mud on several occasions for months and all here on the internet where at least two businessmen were trying to profit for and from him! Not only was Dizingai hurt by the theivery, he was additionally hurt by all the well intentioned press here on AR by his so called supporters! "Friends like these hey Dude?"

Scott:

We know who Llamapacker is: his name is Bill Phifer; he lives in Utah and works for a public university.

I beg to differ Nixon was hurt by any of us who felt he was screwed by Phifer. On the contrary, his business is booming.

But I do agree paying half only if you are satisfied is a bit too much to expect.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Mark, do you think even for an instant, that a outfitting company you go with would ever try to mess you over. You are an insider and sell hunts. Surely if ever a good hunt would be forth coming it would be with an outfitter. The Ph's would bust their butt to insure that you got a good hunt. Future bookings depend on a good relationship. How could you sell a hunt with folks that overestimate the product they try to deliver. You have to realize that some of us fall through the cracks on a safari and never have the same opportunities.I have put off my next safari for three years as the last one still stings quite a bit. Trust takes time to evolve....

IB:

The same is true for outdoor communicators, whether they are making a film or writing a story.

I believe in and gladly give a gift/tip from the heart to those I feel earned it and deserve it. I see it as a way of saying thank you for doing more than just your job. I am guessing a lot of us here on the forum receive an end of year bonus for production/sales/profit/etc. I tend to over simplify things, but that is a tip. Your boss or company just said thank you for your sacrifice and doing a little more than "just your job". The military gives medals for doing more than "just your job". Everyone loves a sincere token of appreciation. There are a lot of people that believe the tip, or token of appreciation is their right and the world owes it to them, those people are called Democrats.

I hope and pray that every hunt will be so wonderful that I will give a gift from the heart and I will return. Unfortunately, I have left more than one camp/outfitter/guide without giving a gift or tip.

quote:

If you are hard to please, your proposal would be very scary for any safari operator to host. Half down, safari complete, you return to your home thousands of miles and many non extradition treaties away and months after you are home and on your sofa, cocktail in your left hand tv remote in your right hand you decide whether to pay the remaining fifty percent. Arbitration is out of the question, lawsuits a waste, revenge laughable, you just get to decide and thats the end. You have the trophies, you've taken the time and resources, ( as you propose,) you are immune from legal action, you hold all the cards and you are very hard to please. What an incredible gamble the operator takes!

Yes, Too Damn Much of a gamble. I have been on both sides of hunts as the client and as the guide, and seen folks treated really great, yet they themselves were not that good of a shot, and at the end of the hunt, their panties were in a wad, simply because they were not the consumate hunter they thought they were.

As for Fair Game's comment, I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that there was some sarcasm involved.

quote:

Yes I do see that Fairgame has agreed to your terms and no I don't think he's doing the right thing for him and his.

Been there done that. I try and put a bit more than 100% into a safari whether it be a postman or a Duke. If any hunter felt that he had not received what I advertise, what I speak, then I personally would have a problem accepting his hard earned cash.

A good example is that I have sold a Lion safari but being first year of operation (I am unsure of the quality of Lion in the immediate area) and therefore have negotiated a deal where as if we do not take one of the Kafue's impressive males then effectively the hunter downgrades and I relinquish $20,000, being half the daily rate.

If we take a sod of a Lion then will I change my policy? No but I might increase the trophy fee next year.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:


When we take a sod of a Lion

Quote fixed.

Scott:
What you say here--
If you are hard to please, your proposal would be very scary for any safari operator to host. Half down, safari complete, you return to your home thousands of miles and many non extradition treaties away and months after you are home and on your sofa, cocktail in your left hand tv remote in your right hand you decide whether to pay the remaining fifty percent. Arbitration is out of the question, lawsuits a waste, revenge laughable, you just get to decide and thats the end. You have the trophies, you've taken the time and resources, ( as you propose,) you are immune from legal action, you hold all the cards and you are very hard to please. What an incredible gamble the operator takes!

--is true. But in all fairness to lb404 this is how it is 100% of the time but with the PH holding all the cards. I would be interesting to see how many sour hunts actually take place. lb404 may not be hard to please, he has been stung in the past. So have I and have not been to Africa since 2008. I wrote my PH to discuss issues and he refused to do so. That tells me I'm in the right. So, I have booked to Australia this June and am looking at Zimbabwe again, but with a new PH, for elephant, and maybe leopard and buffalo, too. We'll see.
Cheers, all,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Yes I do see that Fairgame has agreed to your terms and no I don't think he's doing the right thing for him and his.

Been there done that. I try and put a bit more than 100% into a safari whether it be a postman or a Duke. If any hunter felt that he had not received what I advertise, what I speak, then I personally would have a problem accepting his hard earned cash.

A good example is that I have sold a Lion safari but being first year of operation (I am unsure of the quality of Lion in the immediate area) and therefore have negotiated a deal where as if we do not take one of the Kafue's impressive males then effectively the hunter downgrades and I relinquish $20,000, being half the daily rate.

If we take a sod of a Lion then will I change my policy? No but I might increase the trophy fee next year.

You are refering to craftsmanship I believe. Craftsmanship in that the product you are crafting holds more importance than the compensation you are given for the product. I think thats admirable and I respect you for it. I might have worded my thoughts a little different in that your choice is ofcourse great for you and its certainly not for me to say otherwise. However, many businessmen, myself included are not in a position to allow a possibly un pleasable client to short change us based on their whim. I am consistently short changed by customers and for the most part the profit I try to retain makes up for loosing nickels here and there. In the latest case, I invoiced a customer for $8,200.00 and he paid me in two installments, one for $1,000.00 and another for $7,000.00. No biggie. If the customer was exceedingly hard to please, or impossible to please and in the case of your lion hunt I was selling or producing a very expensive product, I'd be hard pressed to reasonably explain to my wife or children the legitimate reasoning behind sending a customer out of the country with a magnificent lion and no compensation for me/ us. Ferrari dealers can't let customers head out the door and across country in a coupe with no guarantee of compensation. Skyscrapers can't be bought without a binding contract. Were I selling lions I couldn't let them fly out of town without a guarantee either.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

--is true. But in all fairness to lb404 this is how it is 100% of the time but with the PH holding all the cards. I would be interesting to see how many sour hunts actually take place. lb404 may not be hard to please, he has been stung in the past. So have I and have not been to Africa since 2008. I wrote my PH to discuss issues and he refused to do so. That tells me I'm in the right. So, I have booked to Australia this June and am looking at Zimbabwe again, but with a new PH, for elephant, and maybe leopard and buffalo, too. We'll see.
Cheers, all,
Cal

lb notes that he has hunted with four different ph's, I assume four different companies and was dissatisfied with all four. I'll emphasize I'm not critisizing him but by his description he is an exacting customer. Thats great! If ib buys a luxury anything he has standards that he requires be met. Perfect. The problem lies in the gamble of a less than standardized industry, (hunting as compared to new cars,) and the desire to complete the transaction, take the product around the world and then and only then decide whether to pay! Were Don Trump to sell say two skyscrapers and recieve 50% of the compensation hoped for we'd no longer be able to watch "The Apprentice". Rehetorical question Fairgame, how many lion hunts you were stiffed on by clients would it take to drive you under?

Business 101, taught at University Alaska Fairbanks tells us not to let a finished product out of our sight without binding guarantee of final payment.

I have had 17 hunts in Africa and god knows how many others all over the world. Have I had bad hunts? Yes. I have had 2 bad safaris both of which were drought related. Have I ever had a dumb ass for a PH, yes once. I have always gotten along with all.

There has been one time that I refused to tip. This was to the staff of a guest house in which we were staying. A bird could not have lived off the food we were given. Hell, if I ate mine and both if my sons food. I would still have been hungry. The service sucked. One night after dinner, I had the PH drive us to a local Portuguese restaurant. I was tired of starving. Every single person there was a militant homosexual.

There is one person posting here that is not telling the entire story. He is extremely obese and a problem client. He can't walk 400 yards but he is complaining. I am tempted to out him.

I am now told that in one instance, this person walked 50 yards and had to be picked up in a cruiser.

A certain PH will be logging in tomorrow to comment I am told.

quote:

militant homosexual.

what is that

I am tempted to out him.

Please do that ( Hope its not Jonny

While Jonny is heavy, I did see him walk for 7 hours in January when we were birds hunting in FL. It isn't him.

A certain PH in TZ from Zim should chime in tomorrow if all goes as I was told. We will see what happens.

It reminds me of an elephant hunt I went on. I met the previous client. He did not connect. He was very sad. He could not walk 400 yards through the river sand without breathing so heavily he had to stop to rest. When on the last day he was LUCKY enough to get a shot at close range with no walking, he shot the elephant with a soft point! He complained. I do not understand that mentality.