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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting How the mighty have fallen.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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NitroX I am looking foward to hearing hjow your 9,3 shoots at 200 and 300 yards. A scoped, properly regulated, zeroed, and tested at 200 and 300 yards, 9,3x74R double rifle is a great hunting gun. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Looks like Charles Mc Williams has run out of "rebuttles." | |||
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Don, You got it figured out. Mac is making angels dance on the head of a pin. Any properly regulated double will cross at a certain distance when the velocity is right. The finely regulated ones will have both bullets shooting the same height above zero with a load that is too slow in velocity, with the left barrel shooting to the left and the right barrel shooting to the right. As velocity is increased, the POI for each barrel comes down and inward toward the center. At just the right velocity, both barrels converge the POI on the POA at the range for which the rifle was regulated. They cross and shoot low at the regulated distance if the load is too fast. If you fine tune the velocity with minimum variance to make the barrels converge their individual centers-of-group to the same distance apart as the centers of bores at the muzzle, then you could conceivably file the sights to get the elevation right if it wasn't already there. That is another component of regulation: aligning the bores and the sight properly for a given bullet and velocity. Of course all this has to do with barrel time as muzzles rise in recoil, and the lateral kick of a side by side double in recoil, as the right muzzle moves right and up, and the left muzzle moves left and up when fired. Practically speaking, with the real amount of velocity variation in reality, especially in the old days with cordite, the regulation process is going to aim at a crossing point of say 50 or 75 or 100 meters or yards. So my Merkel crosses at 50 meters: the POI's of each barrel converge and overlap there, right on the POA/bull's eye, with the 50 meter leaf. At 100 meters the POI's of the right and left barrels have diverged back to what they were at the muzzle, having crossed, so the left hits to the right and the right hits to the left, and the 100 meter leaf has brought the POI back up to the proper elevation. Of course, if you are MacD37, you will have infinitesimally nonvariant ammo velocity and your rifle barrels will shoot parallel in windage to infinity. Not impossible, but very unlikely, in the real world. | |||
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RIP You better get back to reading those referance books. Your explanation is total cacca. We're getting back to the Boddington 'Minute of Grapefruit' BS. A properly regulated Double will never cross, at any distance. If yours does than you don't have the proper regulation or you don't have the proper regulating load. Too many people around here have a Double and think they know it all. I can guarantee you that no one knows it all in the Wonderful World of Doubles.  Come back with your theories after you have had a dozen or so that you have worked up loads for and actually had a quality Double so you can see how it is supposed to be.  | |||
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...................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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 ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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So how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? How precisely can you control the velocity of the ammo? Codswallop! You won't lure me into this pit! I have seen the abyss and scrambled back to sanity! It is as I say for all practical purposes. No double shoots a Right and a Left parallel to infinity except in the dreams of Mac and Mickey.  | |||
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Gentlemen, RIP is correct in his description of the convergence of the barrels of a double rifle, Physically. They even converge more than he says! If you place the sights on the POA at the regulation and look through the barrels, you will see that the right barrel will be looking at a point that is BELOW and to the LEFT of point of aim, and vice-versa for the left barrel. What RIP is forgetting is, this convergence of the barrels is necessary so that when that right barrel is fired, and at the exact time the bullet leaves the barrel,(called barrel time) it is pointed at a place on the right of the point of aim on the target, and the distance of regulation is determened by the elevation filed into the iron sifgts. The left barrel will be pointing at a sopt on the left of the POA on the target. The bullets, when properly loaded, and shot from a perfectly regulated rifle will shoot in a straight line paralell to each other, with the only thing not straight is the elevation, barring the existance of wind. NOW, as for the comment, about ME haveing perfect loads, and perfect rifles, simply because it is ME! Well, let me inlighten you! It was ten years after I startrd loading for double rifles, that I learned that a double rifle is not supposed to cross, at any distance, and I tried for the same loads as RIP does today, and I got them. Because of that I too, believed that a double rifle was no good past the physical regulation distance for the rifle, hence at long range, one had to learn to use Kentuckey windage to hit the target. This is not the case, if the loads are properly loaded! Just like everyone else, I thought regulation, and working up a load for a double were the same thing, they aren't. Regulation of a double rifle is aphysical thing done when building the rifle,with "try sights" to make the barrels fire a round from each barrel side by side on the target, with the left barrel on the left, and the right barrel on the right, and bot at the same elevation, The "TARGETING DISTANCE" is done when the sights are filed in, to sight the rifle for a given distance. The double rifle with three or four flip-ups for longer range witll have all the bottom of the "V"s in line with the next one, with the oly difference being hight of the flip-up sight. And if the load is properly loaded these sights will work as intended at the range engraved on them, if not, the load is not right! while working up proper loads is a whole other thing. The barrels are converging, the line of sight is not, if the load is proper. The line of sight only changes in elevation, as distance increases. All this is "PERFECT" loading, and PERFECT regulation, for sure Rip is right about that. The acceptance of the thinking that a double rifle is "SUPPOSED" to cross is simply wrong, and if you will accept that, then you will not be getting the best out of your double. It seem this is acceptable to RIP, and if it is good. It isn't for me! If that is makeing Angels dance on the head of a pin, then start the music, because that is the way it is!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Have you read your posts about bullet performance in the Iron Maiden recently?
You said the same thing about the 404 Jeff, I believe. And yet here your are, over the Abyss and in free fall with the Sheephunter Rifle.
What? Every rifle crosses? Ah young Grasshopper, I see your schooling is not yet complete. You are not yet ready to tread the path of enlightenment outside of the AR Monastery. | |||
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Mac,  Mickey, All this has gotten me thinking that here at HA!/DOA we need to produce an affordable double rifle guaranteed to cross at 50 or 100 yards, and offer the customer his choice of crossing point and the ammo and recipe to do it. Of course, the first offering will have to be the .470 NE. Meanwhile, we'll be researching this parallel to infinity concept and see just how practical it would be, and how much we will have to charge for the premium loads to make it work ... Nah, if a rifle crosses at 50 and is good to 100, or crosses at 100 and is good to 200 yards, that is plenty good enough for a big bore and a small bore respectively. What idiot would want to shoot game with a double rifle past 200 yards anyway? I'll sit back and watch the double rifle obsessive-compulsives post now.  | |||
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Now why would you assume (you know what that means)that a Double Rifle is incapable of the same accuracy as a Bolt? Taking into account the trajectory differences from any Double to the mighty .396 SuperDooperRocketPropelledStumpwhacker. It all boils down to barrel accuracy and loading. accuracy. Ever see any of the targets from Creedmoor? A PROPERLY regulated Double will shoot evey bit as well as any other rifle, barrel for barrel.  | |||
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Mickey and Mac, My method is superior to yours at game shooting ranges. If it crosses at 100 yards, then diverges to muzzle width at 200 yards: At every point between 0 and 200 yards, both of my barrels will have a composite group closer to DEAD ON, than your mythical parallel shooting double. Yes I have seen the Creedmore targets reproduced here and there ... My "mythical double" shoots both barrels onto the head of a pin at 100 yards, and that is easier than angels dancing there. Of course we all know that the group sizes and line of flight variances produced by the ammunition factors alone make all of this discussion merely theoretical. | |||
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Good response RIP! You know that neither your's or ours is much different, if you are getting a small composite group at 200 yds. I would say you have a two group load, and simply do not know it, whaH-cha-thank?  If you use two targets, and shoot the left barrel on the one on the left, and your group center is 1/2" to the left of the vertical line at it's intersecetion with the horizonal line on the target, and the right barrel's center is 1/2" on the right of the intersection, the resulting composite group will merge into one that is only just double or a little more than the tightest barrel group, and will only widen as the bullets go down range, but are shooting paralell for all practical purposes. IMO, that is what you have with your Merkel. Regardless how you explain it, if your composite group is holding to 200 yds,and follows you MOA then you have properly loaded ammo for your rifle. I think also, you can't do better with a 470NE rifle with Iron sights!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac, Jolly good show which will add to the growth of Grasshoppers on the path to enlightenment. But, with my favored loads, my Merkel crosses at 50 meters and is good from zero to 100 meters without any Tennessee Elevation nor Kentucky Windage ... just one leaf for 50 meters and a second leaf for 100 meters. I don't care to finesse it anymore than that. | |||
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I don't blame you! that is as good as is needed from a 470NE double with the factory irons. My eyes certainly will not produce that well any longer at 69 yrs old. Buffalo need to be nervous, however! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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So, the only reason a properly regulated SxS double rifle can't be used for 300 yd shots is the lack of proper sights? What's all this talk then of doubles being only good for short range stoppers? Why can't a double in a common .30 cal (maybe .303 Brit as an example) be just as all-around useful as a 30-06 bolt gun? Very interesting thread... ============================== "I'd love to be the one to disappoint you when I don't fall down" --Fred Durst | |||
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I know there are guys like NE450No.2, Mickey1 and Butch Searcy who could drop an elk at 300 yards with an iron sighted double without difficulty. Personally I would limit myself to 100 yard shots because I do not shoot a .500 NE well enough to consider very long shots with it. However, what I really like is to sneak up as close as possible and then get 2 quick shots into the animal. | |||
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I agree with everything 500 said, especially the part about likeing to get in close, me TOO! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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500Grains I appreciate the company and skill level you give me but that is a little outside my ability. I am playing with a 303 Double now that does show promise of that kind of accuracy in that it shoots both barrels into less than 3/4 inch groups. Now if I can just get the composite load to hit the Angels I'll be happy. My 9.3 with Ziess 1.5x6 and 450#2 and his 9.3 Chapuis are easily 300 yard rifles. I think either would put up a decent accounting with any other rifle with a similiar trajectory. I've seen the targets of 500grains 500NE and there is no reason, other than eyesight, that would limit that rifle to under 250 yards. Doubles are not just stopping rifles. They can be anything the shooter wants them to be. | |||
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OK, now I'm a bit confused (some would call that an improvement, BTW). If the regulation of a double is based on the bullet exit during recoil, to what extent does the shooter's body type effect regulation? Will a well regulated double shoot the same for Minime and Lurch? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I'd pay real money to see Mini Me shoot a 470 N.E. Double. Brings a whole new meaning to "Dwarf Tossing" ______________________ Age and Treachery Will Always Overcome Youth and Skill | |||
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Recoil has an effect on such rifles as a lever action .45/70 (hex sign made) as well BTW. Body type and effect. I think it is too variable to be factored in. The regulation loads assume the double rifle is being shot off-hand and unsupported. The reason test loads are developed from a standing rest (also recoil! reasons) with the rifle touched only the shooters hands and shoulder and the shooters hands and arms resting on support for steadiness. This thread has become a very good thread. | |||
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I gotta admit I laughed out loud at the mental image when I read that.... ~~~ Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. 1 Corinthians 16:13 | |||
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Absolutely it does effect the way a double rifle shoots! This is one of the reasons every double rifle has to have the loads fine tuned, to get the best out of the rifle. This isn't unique to double rifles, however. Any rifle bought from another person, will shoot a little different with the same loads, for the new owner. As you know, if you buy a rifle from someone, that is scoped, it will need re-zeroing for you. This is not only because of the difference in the way you mount the rifle, but also has to do with the way the rifle recoils when "YOU" shoot it! The recoil always plays a part in the tuneing of any rifle. It is simply mor critical in a rifle that recoils differently with each of two barrels. Here, with a double rifle, is where the Angles are a little harder to find! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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