I have just finished reading the double rifle debacle and the $50,000.00 screw. This is all a great slap in the face to the actual purpose of this forum.
I have met Ray and Ernest (I met both at Dallas SCI and in truth, did not really like either one of them. But that is a personal opinion and not based on anything they actually did to me) and have taken advice from each on the subject of hunting in Africa. Their suggestions were not exactly spot on, but nothing in life is 100%. Live and learn. No hard feelings on my part and I wouldn't even begin to take sides in any of the arguments currently flaiming on these boards (as I am guilty of doing in the past).
That being said, there are some poor, misfortunate souls who are getting a royal shagging in these pages (I'll let you decide who's who). In all the shit stirring and mud-slinging, some may be getting their long-awaited shots in, but in the end all we are really doing is shitting where we hunt.
AR is a great wealth of information and there is suppose to be a brotherhood here. That is all falling to the wayside. Imagine what people who are just discovering AR are thinking? I am not innocent in all this, I have engaged in futile bickering with fellow members. Shit happens and tempers flare. Such is life. Move on. Get back on subject - which is suppose to be something we all love - Hunting and especially, Hunting Africa.
Money is owed and wounds are being licked, but we will all live to fight another day. This is suppose to be a place (the place) where we can reflect on the smell of the camp fire; the last fleeting moments as the sun goes down in Africa, the thrill of the chase, the energy in the air before we pulled the trigger, the joy of a dream fullfilled, and the real life experience we can share with others (damn that was along sentence).
The people who think they are getting screwed, well, man up and fight for what you believe in. The people who think they are getting a bad rap, well, if you know you are in the right and your conscious isn't going to eat you alive, what everyone esle thinks really isn't all that important is it? (I could't resist at least a little banter)
Through AR, I have met some damn fine people and some other's. And I believe there are more of you out there. Isn't it time to pull up our bootstraps, brush off the dust, square our chins (that would be multiple chins for some of you ) and get back to business? Damn I wish I were off in Zim hunting jumbo's with Ganyana. Moderator's feel free to move or remove this post if you once again deem that action as necessary.

BWN300MAG

Amen brother

TerryR

Unfortunately what's going on here is a vital function of this site.

It's not enjoyable, or pretty, but waste elimination in general is known to smell bad!

quote:

Originally posted by BWN300MAG:
I have just finished reading the double rifle debacle and the $50,000.00 screw. This is all a great slap in the face to the actual purpose of this forum. .

Then don't post about it.

I haven't posted much lately, and probably shouldn't get involved, but I do have to make one observation. In my mind, the problem lies in the African forum. All the others I commonly visit (Gunsmithing, Big Bores, Medium Bores etc) seem to be doing ok.

quote:

This is all a great slap in the face to the actual purpose of this forum.

No, actually this is exactly the purpose of this forum.

This is a free, open and lightly moderated forum where exactly these kinds of things should be discussed. Very few forums allow people carte blanche to sell their products or services. With that freedom comes the potential that individual controversies will be aired in public. So be it, everyone has the option of ignoring any topic.

These two recent topics are just temporary diversions. Much like our periodic troll problems.

The real strength in this forum lies in its Members and the wealth of knowledge that they share. Even if you are a new Member, it doesn't take long to absorb a great amount of knowledge from this forum.

Occasionally a little house cleaning is needed. This just strengthens the forum, it does not weaken it.

No Member of this forum should be above the law. The Members' moderation of this forum is one of its greatest strengths and will ensure this forum continues to be the encyclopedia of all the hunting forums.

Regards,

Terry

Terry, I agree.

It's also my opinion, based upon at least one major AR African hunting debacle from this season, that there are those select-few individuls who should never be booked as hunting clients in the first place, on any basis whatsoever. These people aren't ready for Africa, and they likely never will be. The ability to write a check, and/or climb aboard an aircraft bound for Africa does not make one qualified to be a functioning, suitable safari client.

I could say more, but I won't.........

AD

BWN300WINMAG,

I asolutely hear what you are saying, and in my private heart agree with most, if not all.
In my super ego/forebrain/public world of reason and accountability however, my view point is very different. There I take great joy in these public, and highly contentious forum framed Internet brawls:

1. It is neat to see what someone writes when when they are reflexively fired up about an issue.

2. These long and contentious threads are very analogous to a civil tort proceeding. Each respopnse pro and con on a specific point constitutes rebutal and or cross examinatiom.

3. I am writing legal briefs right now for a tort proceeding coming up against some people who abused their positions of authority. Basiclly several people willingly helped in a process to accuse a person for a crime he did not commit (The county proscecuting attornies determined that no crime or even impropriety had occurred). The point of this little story is that the legal battle will be very ugly/nasty, and it will be public. In the end, though, the truth will be revealed, and people looking outside in will have much more data to use in determining who they can trust to deal with in the future. That process has occurred with a few of the recent donnybrooks on these pages.

lawmdart

Amen to that


Hamdeni

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:

quote:

This is all a great slap in the face to the actual purpose of this forum.

No, actually this is exactly the purpose of this forum.

This is a free, open and lightly moderated forum where exactly these kinds of things should be discussed. Very few forums allow people carte blanche to sell their products or services. With that freedom comes the potential that individual controversies will be aired in public. So be it, everyone has the option of ignoring any topic.

These two recent topics are just temporary diversions. Much like our periodic troll problems.

The real strength in this forum lies in its Members and the wealth of knowledge that they share. Even if you are a new Member, it doesn't take long to absorb a great amount of knowledge from this forum.

Occasionally a little house cleaning is needed. This just strengthens the forum, it does not weaken it.

No Member of this forum should be above the law. The Members' moderation of this forum is one of its greatest strengths and will ensure this forum continues to be the encyclopedia of all the hunting forums.

Regards,

Terry

Terry, I must have missed that section on the home page where it says the purpose of this forum was to share in the experience of bitching about, moaning and groaning to, and bad-mouthing other members. My mistake.
So from time to time a little house cleaning is needed huh? Well Terry, Mr. Moderator, get a mop and a broom - you and the others have work to do.

I agree 100% with you Terry. Personaly I'm a little sad with what had happened and I learned a lot of things, but I agree that the Forum will go out of this strengthened, not weakened. What had happened was good to AR.

Personaly, I have deleted my web page address from my signature, AR is the place where I learn and enjoy from other hunters experiences, and the place where I enjoy sharing my own experiences not with the intention of sell something. All those things give me more satisfaction than any other thing, so from now on, for this Forum, I am just a common third world hunter again

L

quote:

Originally posted by BWN300MAG:
Terry, I must have missed that section on the home page where it says the purpose of this forum was to share in the experience of bitching about, moaning and groaning to, and bad-mouthing other members. My mistake.
So from time to time a little house cleaning is needed huh? Well Terry, Mr. Moderator, get a mop and a broom - you and the others have work to do.

Moderators are not the only ones with mops and brooms. As a Member, you also get a mop and broom. So if you think there is work to be done, get after it.

Regards,

Terry

I find the abovementioned threads VERY educational. This thread smells fishy, like BWN300MAG is fighting for censorship.

The 1st amendment rules.

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
The 1st amendment rules.

.......But only if used in a responsible manner, and can only be utilized, in any case if the 2nd amendment is in place, and healthy!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
The 1st amendment rules.

.......But only if used in a responsible manner, and can only be utilized, in any case if the 2nd amendment is in place, and healthy!

The first and second amendments of what ??????

Gentlemen, this is not the United States and this site is not owned by anyone in the United States.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cewe:


The first and second amendments of what ??????

Gentlemen, this is not the United States and this site is not owned by anyone in the United States.

Thats certainly true in your case, being from the People's rebublic California, where the constitution is not reccognized!

OUCH!

Please don't turn this into a bash the United States thread. I understand that this is an African hunting forum, but understand that people come from all over the world to visit this forum, and we should be tolerant of their opinions. Am I Muslim? No. But, do I complain when there are some friendly Muslim greetings on the forum page? Absolutely not! Am I American? Yes. Do I complain when people from other countries talk about how good their public health care is? Absolutely not! I think that we should send a hearty congratulations to people who have something that we would like, like freedom of speach, or free public health care, or low crime rates, or excellent hunting, or great public education. We should not throw stones at people who have something good. We should instead find out how to better ourselves and make better changes in our respective countries of residence. There is enough fighting going on in this world without us taking cheap shots at one another in the forums. My advice is to live and let live, as long as someone is not directly affecting you and yours in a negative way.

I think that every democracy has the 1st amendment in some form -even California.

quote:

I think that every democracy has the 1st amendment in some form -even California.

cewe,
Have you been smoking dried lichens from Lapland again? Freedom of expression in public in California is only afforded to those who are twenty degrees or farther left of John The Greek. When California does finally slide into the Pacific ocean we will organize an AR rescue party. First we take the boat to Butch Searcy's house. After that we cruise the waters looking for people doing the sidestroke while holding their favorite firearm above the salt spray.

lawndart

California is actually my home state but I haven´t visited in 25 years -seems to have gone downhill since I left.

Because I left?

You´re pulling my leg on the lichens aren´t you?

I will agree a lot with what Allen Day has posted. I will also say that there is a wealth of information around here that NEVER gets posted in any thread. It gets passed around via PMs because the people do not care to get into pissing matches with others because what they might know to be true runs counter to what many self styled "experts" around here believe or think.

quote:

Terry, I agree.

It's also my opinion, based upon at least one major AR African hunting debacle from this season, that there are those select-few individuls who should never be booked as hunting clients in the first place, on any basis whatsoever. These people aren't ready for Africa, and they likely never will be. The ability to write a check, and/or climb aboard an aircraft bound for Africa does not make one qualified to be a functioning, suitable safari client.

I could say more, but I won't.........

AD

Allen,
your valued opinion might help at least some folks to reconsider.So why not share them?

I am certain that there are as many opinions as members on everything,but one of the greatest values of this forum is sharing knowledge and experiences and thereby educating others possibly.
So why not share?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cewe:


The first and second amendments of what ??????

Gentlemen, this is not the United States and this site is not owned by anyone in the United States.

Thats certainly true in your case, being from the People's rebublic California, where the constitution is not reccognized!

Hey guys don't get your panties in a wad, it was a joke! People in the USA who like guns, and responsible hunting, know the drawbacks of trying to work under the gun, and game laws, of California. Those with these pursuits as hobbies,who live in California, are the first to make comments on the state of afaires in the so-called "GOLDEN STATE"! Lighten up, DAMN!!

Sheephunter, in case you're wondering, my previous remarks on this thread don't have anything to do with your situation at all, but rather a previous African hunting "fiasco-safari" (you're probably familiar with it yourself) involving some of the same players. The problems associated with that episode started and ended with the client as far as I'm concerned, and no one else.

I don't have an opinion concerning your specific safari as it was reported on that other long and ugly thread, at least not one that I'd care to share.

Other than that, I am fortunate in that several of my best and most trusted hunting friends are members here, (some of them seldom if ever post) and we often privately discuss topics of mutual interest. As John indicated, much of what is understood, shared, and discussed in private seldom if ever gets shared on these forums, simply for the sake of avoiding time-consuming, stressful hassles, explainations, and arguments, pure and simple.

These forums can never be, and will never be the end-all source of information on African hunting. The very nature of these discussions precludes that from ever happening.

One more thought: I've seen this a lot of times through the years, but the "good ol' boy", fellow-forum-member, internet buddy-pal system is not necessarily the greatest thing to put your trust in if you want the make the most of your hunting investment. There are still too many unknowns, and too many pools of murkey water that lie beyond your computer screen, and you just don't want to step into the wrong sinkhole and end up over your head.

I prefer to plan my hunts outside the realm of this place, and to use our forums for recreational discussion purposes only..........

AD

I have to admit that when I first joined AR I made several posts and I still post - but only occasionally. I actually "observe" the forum a couple of times a day most every day, but I just have no interest in responding to someone else's request for info or opinions and then having someonle else come in and take personal shots and be insulting and rude to me because of that. To me, a forum is just an exchange of info that each individual takes in and uses or discards as he/she sees fit. It is not the do-all/end-all of expert knowledge about every subject. Anyway, I will continue as I have, but on certain topics I will continue to use the PM system.

There is never a "Feeding Frenzy" icon when you really, really need one.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
There is never a "Feeding Frenzy" icon when you really, really need one.

Well, isn't this interesting. I start a thread and boom, what do you know I solicite an attack. I have no intention of even hinting at stiffling the 1st Amendment. Where the hell did some of you get that anyway? What the point of my thread was really to show that no one can list anything without someone here jumping on them. Why is that? What is the point? We are all entitled to our opinions. But if someone disagrees with you, why get all damned defensive?
"These forums can never be, and will never be the end-all source of information on African hunting. The very nature of these discussions precludes that from ever happening." - Well Mr. Day, I must whole-heartedly agree.
"there is a wealth of information around here that NEVER gets posted in any thread. It gets passed around via PMs because the people do not care to get into pissing matches with others because what they might know to be true runs counter to what many self styled "experts" around here believe or think." - Wow Mr.moderator - John S - (finally a moderator who makes sense - my opinion, not trying to start anything, just exercising my 1st Amendment right) This is exactly what I am talking about. We are all missing out on some great advice and it is all because people do not like to have their posts pissed all over.
"There is enough fighting going on in this world without us taking cheap shots at one another in the forums. My advice is to live and let live, as long as someone is not directly affecting you and yours in a negative way." -Well said TomFromTheShade.
Rusty - it is posts like that which lead me to believe you are one of the wittiest members on this board. Keep up the good work. Hope to see you in Dallas for the show.
Terry two cents - well `nuff said!

quote:

Originally posted by BWN300MAG:
Terry, I must have missed that section on the home page where it says the purpose of this forum was to share in the experience of bitching about, moaning and groaning to, and bad-mouthing other members. My mistake.
So from time to time a little house cleaning is needed huh? Well Terry, Mr. Moderator, get a mop and a broom - you and the others have work to do.

BWN300MAG

I have no part in this thread, but maybe the tone of this post explained the resulting answers a bit.

It is very true, now most REAL information on the boards happens off the public forums which is a sad development.

There are but a few of us who realy have done what we stated we have and have tried to help the new inquring souls out. Then there are the many who havent done shit in their lives. It usualy starts off with an innocent question and degrades into mud slinging about which d.r. action is better and or why the 9.375x96 is better than anything else on the planet, when the original question was should i use a sling while hunting or not!! I have better things to do in my life than give my personal experiences out to help some one who has a question and then be back stabbed by the bunch of idots who we all know will gather around like the jackals they are. This a great forum for those who realy want to learn and share knowledge from those who have it. If you could keep the kids out (the ones holding shot gun barells in their pics, and thinking we will believe their double rifles) it would be what it was intended for. Thats what i think. Charlie

Well put me in the "sheep", "fanclub" and "cheerleader" bunch but here is my experience with Judge G and Ray.

Ray has booked 5 hunts for me (Brown Bear, Mule Deer, American Bison and two safaris with Pierr'e). All 5 have been dream hunts. There is not a day that goes by that I do not thank God for letting me experience these hunts. At 63 years of age I hope for the strength and opportunity to have Ray to book some more.

I only met Judge G briefly in Dallas but one experience causes me to believe in his veracity. Many will remember his great post "I've been to the mountaintop" - a post about a moment in Africa where there were no heros, no great shots, no great trophies.

This was posted just before I left to join Pierr'e in the Selous this year. It was so well written that I suspected "Artistic License" so I printed it off and took it with me. At the first sundowner I handed the post to Anneli (Pierr'es wife) and asked her to read it aloud. She and Pierr'e had not heard about it.

Anneli leaned forward so the fire would illuminate the page and read it in her wonderful South African accent. When she finished only the Hippos in the greater Ruaha river broke the long silence. Pierr'e stared into the fire. Anneli quietly and slowly refolded the paper. Barry, Richard and I sipped our drinks, rocked in our chairs and avoided looking at anyone.

Pierr'e finally regained his voice and simply said "and thats exactly how it was".

Thanks Ray and Judge G for making my life richer.

I have to state that JudgeG is absolutely the best raconteur or storyteller I have ever shared a campfire with. My brother agrees.

He does tend to repeat the stories over a week's time, and it can be hard to get a word in edgewise, as he hates to have his performance disrupted.

BWN300MAG For what it's worth, I believe both your posts here make absolutely more sense than anything I've read on this forum in months.

Well done!

Agreed,

This sight is many times more of a "cage match" than a place for information exchange.

It would really help if we had some method of troll culling. This sight would be a far more informative place with out all the.....

quote:

Originally posted by Charles Mc Williams:
If you could keep the kids out (the ones holding shot gun barells in their pics, and thinking we will believe their double rifles) it would be what it was intended for. Thats what i think. Charlie

Hey "Wynwood". How's it hanging?

quote:

Originally posted by Charles Mc Williams:
There are but a few of us who realy have done what we stated we have and have tried to help the new inquring souls out. Then there are the many who havent done shit in their lives. It usualy starts off with an innocent question and degrades into mud slinging about which d.r. action is better and or why the 9.375x96 is better than anything else on the planet, when the original question was should i use a sling while hunting or not!! I have better things to do in my life than give my personal experiences out to help some one who has a question and then be back stabbed by the bunch of idots who we all know will gather around like the jackals they are. This a great forum for those who realy want to learn and share knowledge from those who have it. If you could keep the kids out (the ones holding shot gun barells in their pics, and thinking we will believe their double rifles) it would be what it was intended for. Thats what i think. Charlie

Charlie

If you are referring to Nitro's Picture than you are a bigger idiot than you appear. You also know far less than you claim.

It's easy to spot the Bullshit in most posts as the Devil is in the Details.

Charles, I don't know of any kids on this forum who are trying to fake anyone out via the use of shotgun barrels, and I'll flat guarantee you that Nitro is holding a genuine, honest, legit double rifle in that photo.........

AD

... hey charlie...give it a little closer look, just to humor us...then edit your post just a bit so it won't be so obvious that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!

Oh...never mind, I see from your profile you reside & hunt in PA, that explains a lot...

quote:

Originally posted by Charles Mc Williams:
.... If you could keep the kids out (the ones holding shot gun barells in their pics, and thinking we will believe their double rifles) it would be what it was intended for. Thats what i think. Charlie

"What a maroon!!!"