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people, following buzz's comment earlier about the lack of control on who posts stuff on youtube i spent a little time this afternoon and looked at a little of what the elephant hunting fraternity has posted there - the reality of it is there is lots that doesnt look great on camera ,not just elephant hunts but all kinds of hunting - also a lot that without the correct explanation can be completely misread - lets encourage each other and the people in the industry both on the professional end and the clients end to ask a couple of questions before making these posts - its a different deal on a "hunting" TV show or a DVD that someone would have to buy , these are usually accompanied by explanations and some level of professionalism in whats shown - the first question we need to ask ourselves before we post is - will this make us as hunters look good or bad? is there enough explanation of what is happening in the footage? is going to disempower the antis or empower them in the public eye ? if a decision making government official from any african country were to see that would he be in favour of hunting and the behaviors he sees ? truth is , like it or not in todays world the antis are a strong force and they are working hard to close down all manner of hunting - lions - elephants in bots - the list goes on and on - an hour on youtube would give anyone the ammunition one needs to fuel a great fire among anti hunters- like buzz , i often wonder how some of our stuff gets on there it looks bad without some preamble and explanation - its out on DVd and i am happy to have it shown to the world , but repackaged to look chaotic and bloodthirsty it gives a pretty grim impression of what should be seen as a noble sport. buy a hunting magazine you will see dead stuff , buy a dvd you will see stuff die , subscribe to pusuit , sportsmans or outdoor channel you will see things die , but in all of these cases it will be edited with the correct message - indeed some of our own accurate reloading community has some video out there with their names on thats less than complimentary to us as a group . there are plenty of communities , like this one for example where we can post stuff for other hunters to look at but lets be careful about what we post on places like youtube - theres lots that goes well on a hunt but theres often some pretty gory moments that cannot be avoided - lets not show that to the world , there is no respect in showing an animal slowly dying- just my 5c- respectfully imc "The greatest threat to our wildlife is the thought that someone else will save it” www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica www.ivancarterwca.org www.ivancarter.com ivan@ivancarter.com | ||
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Well said Ivan. Unfortunately it has been said before on AR. Let's face the fact that every African hunter doesn't understand what you speak of, nor can they all resist the temptation to be a "movie star" in their own minds. I began having vids of my hunts made some years ago and have taken many pics since my very first safari. However, you will rarely ever see a pic or a vid of me hunting unless it is on a commercial DVD or in a hunting magazine or record book, with appropriate narration. That's my choice and I made that decision many years ago. Others make different choices and that's OK with me. We are never going to change the minds of the PETA, HSUS or any other animal rightists or committed anti-gunners/anti-hunters. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Good post Ivan. I have seen some gawd aweful "hunting" clips on youtube and if I didn't know anything about hunting I would have strong anti hunting feelings after watching that. Maybe you professional hunters should look for an added clause in your safari contract limiting the posting of videos by your clients on public tubes if it includes your name, your company name or your image. May be something along the lines of your prior consent before posting? As far as a part of your commercial video ending up on youtube, that one is easy. File a D.M.C.A claim with the hosting site and it will be taken off in a second. That being said, I have not seen too many offensive videos of African safaris (save for some lion hunts on a farm etc.). I guess the African safari hunters are a couple of notches above the regular Joe hunting in his backyard. The price of knowledge is great but the price of ignorance is even greater. | |||
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It would appear at times, we are our own worst enemy | |||
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My son and I are going to Zim, next Aug. That being said, I have no intention of putting the end result on youtube. We are having the hunt filmed, but for OUR VIEWING ONLY. Nuff said. Mad Dog | |||
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Amen, Ivan.  | |||
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2nd Amen, Ivan. Exactly Tom in TN, spot on. We police ourselves or someone else will do it for us. Gray Ghost Hunting Safaris http://grayghostsafaris.com Phone: 615-860-4333 Email: hunts@grayghostsafaris.com NRA Benefactor DSC Professional Member SCI Member RMEF Life Member NWTF Guardian Life Sponsor NAHC Life Member Rowland Ward - SCI Scorer Took the wife the Eastern Cape for her first hunt: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6881000262 Hunting in the Stormberg, Winterberg and Hankey Mountains of the Eastern Cape 2018 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4801073142 Hunting the Eastern Cape, RSA May 22nd - June 15th 2007 http://forums.accuratereloadin...=810104007#810104007 16 Days in Zimbabwe: Leopard, plains game, fowl and more: http://forums.accuratereloadin...=212108409#212108409 Natal: Rhino, Croc, Nyala, Bushbuck and more http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6341092311 Recent hunt in the Eastern Cape, August 2010: Pics added http://forums.accuratereloadin...261039941#9261039941 10 days in the Stormberg Mountains http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7781081322 Back in the Stormberg Mountains with friends: May-June 2017 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6001078232 "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading" - Thomas Jefferson Every morning the Zebra wakes up knowing it must outrun the fastest Lion if it wants to stay alive. Every morning the Lion wakes up knowing it must outrun the slowest Zebra or it will starve. It makes no difference if you are a Zebra or a Lion; when the Sun comes up in Africa, you must wake up running...... "If you're being chased by a Lion, you don't have to be faster than the Lion, you just have to be faster than the person next to you." | |||
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Who's hunt is it????? . | |||
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This has bothered me for quite a while as well. Well said, Ivan. | |||
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Thank you, Ivan. Reminders like yours need to be put up from time to time, especially coming from people such as yourself. | |||
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Youtube is pretty good about pulling copyrighted material. I can think of several videos I enjoyed only, later, to find they had been removed due to copyright. It won't get everyone's stuff off the net, but it would certainly remove some of the content pulled from DVD's (like Buzz's). As far as the rest of the stuff, I think a lot of people view their hunt videos with rose colored glasses. This thread is a good example of what NOT to show. The hunter bags his animal, but all everyone else can see is poor shot after poor shot. ____________________________ If you died tomorrow, what would you have done today ... 2018 Zimbabwe - Tuskless w/ Nengasha Safaris 2011 Mozambique - Buffalo w/ Mashambanzou Safaris | |||
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Ivan - Thank you for posting about this subject. As Tom stated in his post above, I also believe we as hunters are sometimes our own worst enemies. Videos that show bad shots without any context or commentary are the absolute worst. I believe that with the growth of "filming your own hunts", and the massive advertising of such, has led to many people wanting to be the next Ivan Carter, Craig Boddington, Jim Shockey, etc. Nothing wrong with that goal but sometimes common sense is lost and the worst of the worst makes its way to the internet. | |||
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I have said it before, hunting is such an esoteric activity that almost no hunting video has any meaning to anyone other than hunters. It takes the experience of hunting to appreciate what is actually happening in a video and especially at the moment a hunter fires his rifle. When you remove all but that very small moment from a video, it would be very likely that people viewing the video (mistakenly) come to the conclusion that this must be the most important part of the hunt and therefore the 'reason' we all hunt; to kill. Yes I watched Buzz's video many times and thought it was fascinating from the aspect of seeing what happens in an unprovoked charge but I don't expect anyone who has no interest in the WHOLE of hunting to 'get' what I got from it. The fact is that hunting exists because of those who do not hunt but who do not dislike the concept of hunting. There are not enough people on either side of the debate (as of now) to permanently steer the issue. My opinion is that the more videos (which are freely posted by hunters themselves) anti-hunters can use to fan the flames of their cause, without an equal or greater measure of support on the pro-hunting side, hunting will eventually be stopped in large part. Whether we think hunting is a right or not, it comes down to laws; this is why we do not hunt ducks in June, those laws, given enough pressure from the wrong side, can eliminate your and my activities, no matter how much we want to believe it won't happen. Just think about any asinine law in regards to hunting and you can see where this is all going. As far as how stuff gets on YouTube, I would think that original footage used for commercial (or even private) purposes is covered by copyright at some level. It should be pretty easy to stop it. If I were Buzz, I'd start with the cameraman, follow the trail and hand out ass-whoopins as needed until it got removed, if that is his ultimate desire. _Baxter | |||
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Agree. I clicked on a link posted in the 'spear' forum here that showed a guy skewering a small black bear with a spear. It was pretty horrific. Between the bear's bawling and the 'hunter's' celebration, which surely won honors at the poor taste spectacular awards (screaming things like, "YOU'RE MINE MFer!"), I shuddered and thought to myself, 'this guy just kicked the hunting community in the nuts'. Part of me thinks that no matter what we as a group do, there are those whose minds we will never change, but in general I think that exercising restraint and good taste in showing what we do is the way to go. ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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Ivan, I agree completely....... You Tube will be the death of hunting!  Some of the canned lion stuff is especially bad.  | |||
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Well said,Ivan. I often see videos wherein poor shooting that ends in a gory and agonising death is celebrated.It makes me sick and I can only imagine what it makes the non/anti hunting community feel like.
 @ the spear guy.Best- Locksley,R. "Early in the morning, at break of day, in all the freshness and dawn of one's strength, to read a book - I call that vicious!"- Friedrich Nietzsche | |||
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 Absolutely right great points | |||
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A couple of years ago, I was asked to edit a video for a hunting preserve. I was given a grocery bag full of VHS, 8mm, Hi8, VHSC and miniDV tapes to pull the footage from. I was appalled at the majority of the shots that were available on the tapes. There were bow shots taken at 60 yards, resulting in gut-shot animals, yet the "hunters" were whooping and hollaring like they'd made the kill shot of the century. Animals were shot in the hindquarters, through the guts, and from just about every angle possible, yet in many of the videos, the "hunter" didn't see anything wrong with his "shot placement..." A couple of times the animal was laying there, wounded and grunting in pain, yet the "hunter's" only comment was, "Listen to him squeel!" While I most certainly agree with Ivan's thoughts on the subject, it's going to be hard to police amatuer shot video when some of "US" don't see anything wrong with their hunting ethics or shot placement. | |||
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Ivan, So glad to hear this from you. You are clearly well respected and a leader in the industry and sport, and we need your leadership. Thanks for taking the pullpit and saying what needed to be said. Mike JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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The only way to truly effect change on this issue is from a personal level. The way we teach our children to hunt, the way we behave in hunt camp, the way we encourage others to behave in camp, the outfitters, landowners and organizations we support with our checkbooks. SCI and their members should take particular note of this. | |||
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Thanks Ivan, good advise and something very important to think about. Jerry Huffaker State, National and World Champion Taxidermist | |||
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Some of the stuff I have seen is unbelievably vulgar. Every time I think I've seen the worst, something else comes along and sets a new standard for bad taste. Like that Texas family that posted a "hunting film" that consisted of one "kill shot" after another, literally dozens of them, along with clips of their idiotic "victory dances" - complete with asinine mugging, hooting and howling for the camera. I swear, some of these people shouldn't be allowed out in public. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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people i think all of the action starts at home , between the posters here and everyone in the community that we know , just simply sharing our views with other hunters and pointing out the damage that stuff like that can do is all it will take , as a group , the AR group has a wide reaching circle of influence , these are the issues that can start being addresses one guy at a time , will it stop it all - NO - will it greatly reduce it if we think first - absolutely ! posting it here where it will be appreciated by hunters is a far better way to show your footage rather than youtube - remember that as cool as it may have felt to be part of a particular experience most viewers are watching it in cold blood and only see whats on the screen with no preamble and no emotion - that often paints a very different picture - there are lots and lots of threads asking what the real story was on a particular tracks episode or other Tv show - the reason its been cleaned up and edited to be more tasteful is because of the broad audience that may see it - outdoor channel in fact has some very stringent rules about showing wounded animals ,no slowmo killshots etc - many hunters see these as ridiculous rules , but in the light of this thread most of them make sense - thanks for reading imc "The greatest threat to our wildlife is the thought that someone else will save it” www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica www.ivancarterwca.org www.ivancarter.com ivan@ivancarter.com | |||
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I could not agree more with Ivan's thread. I live in a relatively small town (45,000) town in southern Michigan. I have been to Africa twice. In 2008 I took our oldest son with me to Zimbabwe on a Leopard/Buffalo hunt. I was very fortunate to take a beautiful male Leopard on this hunt. When we arrived home, I posted on our local newspaper's website the attached photo. There is an outdoors section where people can post pictures of themselves with their fish, deer, turkey ect. I was very proud of my accomplishment and wanted to share the photo along with the others. You would have thought I posted a picture of a dead baby. There were several people who posted VERY negative comments, one bordering on being a personal threat. I learned my lesson. I also had our hunt filmed and it is only for our enjoyment.  Even so called hunters posted negative comments. 'With all the deer in Michigan, why go to Africa?' 'Why kill something you can not eat?' The paper emailed me after reading the comments and asked to do an article on my hunt. I politely declined. | |||
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I think that you missed a great opportunity to educate a largely ignorant public..... I'm not chastising you, just stating my opinion. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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In my experience, cat hunting really draws out the crazies. For some reason people who are borderline anti-hunting become rabid over the death of a big cat. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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By the way Ivan...I agree...good post! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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LANE pictures of Patrick naked golfing in the middle of the night  | |||
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Excellent post Ivan...I have posted the same question? several times on this and other forums although not so eloquently. Unfortunately humans are governed by needs that out weigh and far outstrip simplistic "wishes"...RE: Spears...and men HAVE to continually pecker wave or prove themselves. Going to Africa or any other continent and "standing up" to some "dangerous animal" is one...having or shooting some gigantic cannon or having the largest caliber on the block is another. Even though 99% of the time it's shooting fish in a barrel, the adrenalin rush is what most are after. I stopped killing animals other than to eat...and rodents...a long time ago...but I still hunt...I am still a preditor. While I have no use for someone who shoots an elephant or any large preditor, I don't want hunting interfered with in any mannor by ANYONE. Humanity is on the "brink of destruction" to use an often overused phrase, we are changing the weather patterns which means we are just too stupid to understand we are killing off out food supply. Humans are NOT special in any way, just totally destructive of their environment and we don't have enough predators on humans to keep our breeding under control. We are supposed to be the "smart ape"...not even close. It would be nice if what you posit would come about and we humans weren't so F****** ignorant. Luck | |||
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Don, I am SURE that would get me sent to "time-out"!!!  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I'm still having bad dreams about it. PTSD is a terrible thing!  | |||
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Lane You should be used to it you been there before Steve didn't you mean PMS   and I thought you said you enjoyed the dreams??? | |||
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No mate. The dreams I enjoyed were malaria fed. Patrick playing naked golf definately falls under the catagory of nightmares!  | |||
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 TRUE but funny | |||
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I guess im different, I prefer to see the world for what it is, warts and all, not just someone elses edited & sanitized view. Likewise people should probably not only turn out to cheer at the marching out & coming home parade, but also take time to visit the veterans hospital. Hunting is more or less a sporting/recreational/challenge/enjoyable pastime. Other sports have violent bloody origins which have mellowed; english football originated from kicking around the severed heads of your defeated war opponent. However, hunting remains more primitive/primordal in nature and appearance, but has also become part of the large and constantly expanding modern communications/media success era. It remains a double edged sword, some feel it works against them, others have capitalised oportunity and done very well from it. When I watch other sports I get to see the sports people doing well and not so well, you get to see things as they unfold,whether Tiger Woods makes the most amazing or most lousy putt, you get to see it, they receive the accolades or cop the embarresment[or criticism] on the chin, in full view of the world. Correct me if im wrong, hunting footage predominantly likes to focus more on the successful stalk or shot and trophy. I for one would also appreciate seeing more of what goes wrong or turns out less than ideal in the hunting field. Hunting operations will climb on the band wagon and take advantage of marketing themselves on the big game hunt/adrenaline rush or great white hunter concept, which pretty much appeals to peoples egos and nostalgia. Its predictable then that some who are invigorated by such marketing concepts, would then want to exhibit their demonstration of manhood or achievement on youtube. The hunting industry takes money from those folks,and should be prepared to take the good with the bad, for they are partly responsible for encouraging such mindset in hunters. Otherwise drop the crapola marketing and dont allow videos on your hunts, and offer your services under a different theme. This guy had alot to do with how people began to view conduct and exhibit their hunting prowess over the decades, and the hunting industry still happily feeds off such nostalgia. However, its no where near as exclusive or hidden as it used to be. I have little doubt that Teddy being a bit of an exhibitionist & political public figure, would have utilized and taken advantage of our modern widespread advances in image & communications technology, had they been available.   Teddys African exploits spawned the likes of fellows like one Charles Cottar ;  | |||
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And it is interesting how many animals Roosevelt wrote about mis-shooting and wounding ... Food for thought. | |||
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Ivan, Worrying what the Anti's see is a complete waste of time. Their minds are made up, nothing you or I can do will change that. The majority that view the "doesn't look so great on camera" stuff are split in two groups. Half are anti's who are not at all surprised by the bloodthirsty bad hunter and there is not room on youtube for an explanation to make them understand it. The other half are non hunters who will view distasteful footage in the same way as a punk running across a football field with his pants down. Our family and friends that support us, are the non hunters in half of the majority with access to youtube and they are the ones we should stay focused on. Together, we the hunters, with our family and friends, is what keeps us in the majority and is the reason hunting was not banned long ago. The people closest to us has kept the game open more so than any organization. Lets fight the war we can win. | |||
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I am a hunter and I find alot of the rubbish posted on youtube distasteful. You may be right that nothing can be done to change the attitude of a confirmed anti-hunter. However, we have a fight to prevent other people, who aren't necessarily pro or anti hunting from being disgusted and becoming antis themselves. | |||
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As I see it, it isn't about changing their minds......... I appreciate we'll probably never do that but I don't think we should give them a gift wrapped cricket bat to beat us over the head with...... and that's exactly what most of the You Tube videos are! | |||
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