quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
To me it would be the same as someone getting drunk in a bar and climbing behind the wheel of a vehicle. He gets pulled over. Does the bartender pay the fines because he/she served the beer, while the driver only looses his license? Nope, the driver pays for both the fines and loss of license because he called the shot to get behind the wheel of a vehicle.

In some states the bar and bartender are also held responsible for letting a person they have served get behind the wheel. So, as nice as your analogy may sound, it's not true. Back when I worked as a bartender in California we frequently took the keys away from customers and put them in a cab.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Whilst in principal shooting plus 5 year old lions is a very good rule, the practical application of this policy is going to be a headache and as per many posts above will definitely make Ph's apprehensive about calling the shot. I just had a hunter take a magnificent lion by stalking a bait at first light. The lion was lying in a river bed 100m off the bait and spotted us as we saw him. I had a split second to judge him and the hunter took him. He was full maned and I estimated his age at between 5 and 6 years old after looking at his teeth.

It was first - early light and the lion was 120 yards from us.

Would I have said shoot if there was a potential $5000 fine hanging over me - NO.

And the hunter would not have got a great great trophy..

Is that really a problem in the greater context of lion conservation? Companies such as TGT, WWS, TWC et alia apply this and are still doing well with bookings. It is all about how you sell the hunt and expectation to the prospecting client. And there are plenty of clients out there who accept and understand the consequences of sustainble lion hunting and the low success rate this results in. Many hunters ridicule the use of bait method but in this context it has many advantages and might very well end up being the best method to apply simply because it offers more time to the hunters to assess their trophy before making the decision.

quote:

It is easy for office wallahs to x-ray teeth. I hunt a lot of lions by tracking, as I have a very capable tracker - which few PH's do in Tanzania. This is the finest, most ethical way to hunt a lion. If I am forced to look for "pink" noses and make split second decisions a lot of hunters will go home lionless after paying big money.

JT, this is the risk associated with your choice of method in hunting lion and should be taken into consideration when selling safari expectations. Sorry, don't get me wrong, i am not trying to tell you how to run your business, etc but just my 2 cents worth. The sustainability of lion hunting for future generations should not be compromised, IMHO, by measuring whether the hunt was successful or not. It is one way of confirming the age estimation of a lion that was hunted post mortem. This is valuable information as it now allows you to look at the physical clues to look out for as a sign of age on the next lion.

quote:

BTW I do not countenance shooting young lions at all, and do not do so. But being judged on an x-ray from a hunting situation is a problem for me.

In principle you are right. The x-ray is intended simply as a tool (like many others like skull examination, etc)to help the PH assess his trophy by assigning an approximate age to the dead lion and then comparing the physical attributes (mane, body, teeth, etc) that can be recognized visually under hunting conditions on a live animal on the next lion hunt. This is a slow learning process and data such as x-rays and skull examination obtained post mortem are useful in this way.

quote:

IMO quotas rigidly adhered to and panalties for shooting blatantly young lions should be enough. When we are starting to email photos of lions for permission to shoot to head office we are not hunting any more.

What if you have a quota of 5 lions in a block (which is common in Tz) and every year the PHs adhere to shooting all 5 every year aged 4.5 years old (Many 4.5 year olds are NOT blatantly young in appearance ). What do you think will happen over a 10 year period? In fact I could almost promise you that by season 5 you will be seeing only 2 and 3 yr old males so you won't be shooting any! So is quota really the answer?

The industry just has to accept that lower success rates are an inevitable result of a regulated lion hunting system that will ensure the sustainability of this aspect of the sport.

TGTS commissioned a stunning report on Lion management a few years ago but as it cost them a lot of money, they quite rightly like to keep it private. If they didn't, I'd be trying to get hold of a copy to put on our site at www.shakariconnection.com.

However, the book 'A Hunter's Guide to Ageing Lions in Eastern & southern Africa by Karyl Whitman & Craig Packer that can be found (6th book down) on this page: http://www.shakariconnection.c...-hunting-books5.html might be of interest to some forum members.

JT
You spelled it out as it is brother! Could not have said it better. I have been in on a lot of lion and many times you do not have the time to look at noses. This is a tough situation for sure, and we need to try to give young males time to grow, but Tanzania better be coming up with plans to combat the poison patrol because they are the ones who will remove the majority of lions from the planet. And I assure you they do not check nose color, age, pride size, cub numbers or the rest before they spike a dead cow with" liquid lion away"

Dave,

Your dead right in what you say.......but (as I'm sure you know) there's no way on God's earth the Masai will ever stop killing Lions by any and all methods available to them.

Take the poison away and they'll just find something else, and something else and something else. All the while they've got a hole in their arse and a Lion in the area, they'll want to kill it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
JT
You spelled it out as it is brother! Could not have said it better. I have been in on a lot of lion and many times you do not have the time to look at noses. This is a tough situation for sure, and we need to try to give young males time to grow, but Tanzania better be coming up with plans to combat the poison patrol because they are the ones who will remove the majority of lions from the planet. And I assure you they do not check nose color, age, pride size, cub numbers or the rest before they spike a dead cow with" liquid lion away"

You're unquestionably right, but that still doesn't change the fact that lion hunting CAN'T continue like it is. Just because the Masai are a bigger problem to lions than us doesn't mean we aren't a problem or we don't need to clean up our act. Bwanamich outlined the reason why quotas aren't good enough. So how do you keep operators from shooting younger and mid age lions without enforcing the age rule with a penalty? Ideas? This isn't about what's easiest for Hunters or PHs. It's about keeping lion hunting viable and more importantly keeping lions!! I'm not trying to be a butt Dave or JT, but what's the answer?

Brett

PS. If you don't mind me asking who are you JT? PM me if you wish.

One thing is the penalty system isn't quite right. You don't want damacles sword hanging over the most experienced and long time PH's. Sooner or later a hunter is going to take a shot at a young lion with or without a PH permission or the PH is going to make a mistake. If you allow one young lion in someones career then this will eventually lead to less experinced PH's in the lion industry.And this aging system rely's on experience.

Maybe they should have a two step license. PH Lion and PH. You get one mistake lion every two years without penalty of losing license. Two and you lose your ability to guide lion for 5 years.

Y'know guys, Tanzania game law penalties have always been extremely severe and this Lion penalty is actually less severe than some of their other penalties.

Thankfully (for some) the maximum penalties are rarely (if ever?) applied but theoretically and for example, the taking of a key species trophy that's below the minimum size/weight can result in a fine of the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee, plus the trophy fee, plus possible confiscation of the trophy and withdrawal of the PHs licence.

Personally, I don't think the penalty issue is particularly important because we've had to live with them for years. What's considerably more important is to ensure that we as hunters manage the prides correctly and that means only taking Lions that won't affect pride dynamics.

Ageing Lions is part of that, as is sizing Leopards and judging length of crocs or weight of tusks but in the case of Lions, it's only part of the problem. Ideally, even if a Lion is over 6 years old, it should only be taken if it's either not holding a pride or if it is holding a pride, only if there are no dependent cubs.......... and that can sometimes be even harder than working out the age.

Bwanamich is dead right about Tanz quotas being ridiculous. The outfitter should self impose quotas of between 0,1 or in the case of an excellent lion area - 2 lions per year. This should be reviewed annually.

It is my perception, and I am throwing this out there for comment, that selling "low expectation" hunts here in Tanzania is actually encouraging more and more "hunters" to swallow what little pride they have and book SA "guaranteed" lions. Again- my opinion only - these lion "hunts" are a stain on hunting.

But I know and meet more and more hunters justifying their trip to the canning factory in the light of the high cost of NOT getting a lion further north.

Bwanamich I wholeheartedly endorse the policy of not shooting young lions, and indeed anything that can be done to ensure the continued survival of the species in huntable numbers. I am merely questioning whether the application of another possible fine on PH's is fair given the fact that at least decent PH's are hunting lions in fair chase - where accurate aging is not always possible.

At the end of the day I feel that a hunter paying in the region of $100k for a good Tanzanian lion hunt should have a good chance at taking a quality lion in fair chase. I would welcome comment from those hunters out there on what they feel that percentage chance should be - 20% or 50% - or 80%???

Perhaps someone with the internet skills could do a poll on this.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Whilst in principal shooting plus 5 year old lions is a very good rule, the practical application of this policy is going to be a headache and as per many posts above will definitely make Ph's apprehensive about calling the shot. I just had a hunter take a magnificent lion by stalking a bait at first light. The lion was lying in a river bed 100m off the bait and spotted us as we saw him. I had a split second to judge him and the hunter took him. He was full maned and I estimated his age at between 5 and 6 years old after looking at his teeth.

It was first - early light and the lion was 120 yards from us.

Would I have said shoot if there was a potential $5000 fine hanging over me - NO.

And the hunter would not have got a great great trophy.

It is easy for office wallahs to x-ray teeth. I hunt a lot of lions by tracking, as I have a very capable tracker - which few PH's do in Tanzania. This is the finest, most ethical way to hunt a lion. If I am forced to look for "pink" noses and make split second decisions a lot of hunters will go home lionless after paying big money.

BTW I do not countenance shooting young lions at all, and do not do so. But being judged on an x-ray from a hunting situation is a problem for me.

IMO quotas rigidly adhered to and panalties for shooting blatantly young lions should be enough. When we are starting to email photos of lions for permission to shoot to head office we are not hunting any more.

I had a similar situation this year in northern Moz, where we where at no more than 90 yards from what we thought was a mature looking lion. But even with 10x40Zeiss and 8x30Leicas we both could not comfortably say the animal was over the five year age limit that the reserve held.
A week later, what was probably the same Lion, a client shot it at close range next to a bait. Aged with some help from a tree camera.
It was aged buy the Reserve team at over six years old.
But boy was the PH sweating.

You x-ray the 2nd upper premolar and measure the pulp cavity.



This is a 6 year old lion from Tanzania.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Bwanamich is dead right about Tanz quotas being ridiculous. The outfitter should self impose quotas of between 0,1 or in the case of an excellent lion area - 2 lions per year. This should be reviewed annually.

It is my perception, and I am throwing this out there for comment, that selling "low expectation" hunts here in Tanzania is actually encouraging more and more "hunters" to swallow what little pride they have and book SA "guaranteed" lions. Again- my opinion only - these lion "hunts" are a stain on hunting.

But I know and meet more and more hunters justifying their trip to the canning factory in the light of the high cost of NOT getting a lion further north.

Bwanamich I wholeheartedly endorse the policy of not shooting young lions, and indeed anything that can be done to ensure the continued survival of the species in huntable numbers. I am merely questioning whether the application of another possible fine on PH's is fair given the fact that at least decent PH's are hunting lions in fair chase - where accurate aging is not always possible.

At the end of the day I feel that a hunter paying in the region of $100k for a good Tanzanian lion hunt should have a good chance at taking a quality lion in fair chase. I would welcome comment from those hunters out there on what they feel that percentage chance should be - 20% or 50% - or 80%???

Perhaps someone with the internet skills could do a poll on this.

I guarantee I would not pay 100K if I only had a 50% chance. Would I pay 50K? Sure. I would never buy a canned hunt. I wouldn't take it for free.

Again, why not address it with a quota system? If a block cannot handle 5 lions, make it 3 or 2 or even 1. Oh, but wait, then we couldn't sell five hunts, could we?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

Again, why not address it with a quota system? If a block cannot handle 5 lions, make it 3 or 2 or even 1. Oh, but wait, then we couldn't sell five hunts, could we?

Spot on - boss!

Because if you shoot the right/correct lions you could shoot 20 per block and it wouldn't matter. The numbers aren't the problem. The problem is the lions that are shot. If you shoot the right lion you only kill one animal. If you shoot the wrong lion you can kill many.

Brett

quote:

What if you have a quota of 5 lions in a block (which is common in Tz) and every year the PHs adhere to shooting all 5 every year aged 4.5 years old (Many 4.5 year olds are NOT blatantly young in appearance ). What do you think will happen over a 10 year period? In fact I could almost promise you that by season 5 you will be seeing only 2 and 3 yr old males so you won't be shooting any! So is quota really the answer?

The prove is Kigosi Game Reserve IMO


Seloushunter

Reducing quotas to say 2 lion per block on average, would most certainly help the overall problem. For example, I hunted lion in the Kilombero last September, no way that place should have 4 lion on quota!! 1, maybe 2 at most, but the outfitter is trying to sell all 4 every year anyway. Not only is that bad for the lion, but I guarantee success will rarely be over 50%. If it does, most certainly a young lion or two will be shot. Self regulation is as much of a necessity as new quotas, laws and regulations. Quotas should go down, unfortunately prices will of course go up, but in the long run lions will win.

It's been stated to death here, but properly aging a lion under hunting conditions is a joke! I hate to see PH's put on the spot like that, as inevitably it's gonna be a huge Cluster@#$% for the PH and the client. On the flip side, aging a live lion exactly is extremely difficult, but telling that a lion is still obviously immature is not difficult at all! Now, the PH will have a solid reason to tell his client no, you cannot shoot that cat. A cat that he knows, shouldn't be shot in the first place.