From the African Indaba

Tanzania

Tanzania's Ministry of Natural Resources and Tourism and the Tanzania Hunting Operators Association (TAHOA) have passed a resolution imposing welcome restrictions on lion hunting to encourage trophy-hunting of lion of six years or older. While the taking of a five-year-old lion will be tolerated, younger lions will not be exportable and will incur a $5,000 penalty and the PH responsible may lose his license. If lion less than four years old are taken, the professional hunter will lose his PH license. Lions determined to be less than five years old will no longer be exportable from Tanzania. Many Tanzanian operators have been employing the six-year rule for the last few years, many others have not, leading to this regulatory measure---------


Seloushunter

sure hope all them lions will have a ID with them or at least a birthday cake with enuf candles

Mzuri sana!!!!!! This needed to happen!!!!!!! Now on to the next country!!!!!!

Brett

So, how does one accurately age a lion? Can you pull teeth and age them correctly like a white-tail deer?

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
So, how does one accurately age a lion? Can you pull teeth and age them correctly like a white-tail deer?

Correct. They x-ray them to determine age. TGT has been doing this with all lions harvested for years. In their brochures they have pictures of all the lions taken in the previous year with their dental x-ray next to it.

Does anyone know when this policy will take affect?

Brett

I would assume, like any other animal, if these pros spend years out around them could age them with relative ease. I would think the 5 y/o "grace" period will really help too.

quote:

Can you pull teeth and age them correctly like a white-tail deer?

I do not know anything about aging lion, but aging whitetail deer by their teeth is approximate at best. You can tell the difference between 1, 2, and 3 year olds for sure by the amount of molars (you can usually distinguish those age differences without killing them and lookin in their mouths though). But from 4 on, looking at wear is extremely inaccurate (especially the older they get), i.e. 4 is close, 5 is a maybe, 6+ your guessing and lying if you say otherwise. Tooth wear (especially on a herbivore) is contingent upon many things other than age, i.e. diet, type of soil food is eaten from, etc. As far as the dying and ring counting of molars, this is a proven farce. I wonder how many fights their would be if the state biologist started charging $5k for a deer he thought was 5 and the hunter thought was 6?

quote:

younger lions will not be exportable and will incur a $5,000 penalty and the PH responsible may lose his license.
Seloushunter

IMHO, this has fiasco written all over it. I am fully in favor of shooting the older males, but I cannot imagine having too good of a time on safari while my PH worried about whether shooting a lion was going to cost him his license and while I worried about whether I was going to get to take my lion home.

The beauty of a safari is leaving the red tape and bureauracy at home in the States. This takes some of that type of appeal away from the safari expereince. Granted, you are thrilled if you shoot a MGM lion, but for me, it would take some of the fun out of the overall experience.

You are spot on my friend.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:

quote:

younger lions will not be exportable and will incur a $5,000 penalty and the PH responsible may lose his license.
Seloushunter

IMHO, this has fiasco written all over it. I am fully in favor of shooting the older males, but I cannot imagine having too good of a time on safari while my PH worried about whether shooting a lion was going to cost him his license and while I worried about whether I was going to get to take my lion home.

The beauty of a safari is leaving the red tape and bureauracy at home in the States. This takes some of that type of appeal away from the safari expereince. Granted, you are thrilled if you shoot a MGM lion, but for me, it would take some of the fun out of the overall experience.

The problem with your statement is that if things go on the way they have there will be no more lion hunting. Right now hunters are doing a lot of damage to lion populations with indiscriminate killing. It can't continue and this is a way to make sure it doesn't. What good is a 6 year rule if there aren't any teeth to it? The hunting industry for the most part in Tanzania has proved that it has no interest or intent to follow this rule, so it's time to enforce it. The fact is that a lot of people who have a problem with it will go hunt somewhere else and Tanzania's lion populations will be better for not having some bozo (PH or hunter) shooting 3 and 4 year old males. Good ridance!!!! TGT has been conducting itself above and beyond these new standards for years now and they have lots of happy hunters(..and more importantly than happy or stress free hunters lots of lions). This isn't about MGM lions or catering to hunters. This is about conducting ourselves in the best interest of a species and actually being the stewards of wildlife that many of us claim to be. The fact is information is out there to learn how to reasonably accurately estimate the age of lions. The fact that the Tanzanian government is making allowance for reasonable mistakes is enough to make this a reasonable step to me. I'm sure a lot more hunters will go home empty handed at first, but so what. You aren't buying a lion. You're buying a hunt and if people can't see the difference then I don't know how to help them. I'm in the same boat as I haven't shot a lion, but plan to hunt them in the future. My income is far from unlimited, so the idea of taking a super expensive safari and not getting a lion is hard to swallow, but that's how it is. I guess I'd rather come home empty handed than know I'm part of the problem.

Brett

I hear what you are saying. However aging lions in the field is a iffy proposition at best. All Will is saying is that will put a damper on the trip. IMHO, I don't see how it can do anything but that. Just to be clear, I am not at all in favor of shooting young lions. I spent 63 days in TZ and didn't pull the trigger on a lion although I could have on young lions.

Further, I can see some of those highly ethical game department people using this to try and extract(extort) money from PH's and clients.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Further, I can see some of those highly ethical game department people using this to try and extract(extort) money from PH's and clients.

Now Larry!!! You don't really think they would do that do you??????

Brett

Far better to err on the side of conservatism - and conservation - and not shoot a questionable lion, than to shoot him and risk being wrong.

This policy can work if it is enforced (but whether it will be enforced remains to be seen and is open to doubt).

It will make professional hunters very careful and conservative in evaluating lion trophies, which in this day and age of lion hunting is as it should be.

In half-light a P.H. says shoot and a non-exportable lion is killed (with a $5000 fine and perhaps loss of a P.H.'s license). I think some game scouts are going to get rich.

I suspect that teeth from elderly lions will suddenly be very valuable.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
In half-light a P.H. says shoot and a non-exportable lion is killed (with a $5000 fine and perhaps loss of a P.H.'s license). I think some game scouts are going to get rich.

No shit. I think the better solution is just to have a quota system that doesn't allow over harvest.

If a 5 year old lion is shot, and the PH is the one who calls shoot/don't shoot, then why should the hunter be responsible for an additional $5000? He shot a lion that his PH judged to be legal. I have no problem with the PH being handed what ever penalty the Game Dept. deems appropriate; however, if anyone should pay the additional $5000 it should be the PH as his fine and also the loss of this license.

To me it would be the same as someone getting drunk in a bar and climbing behind the wheel of a vehicle. He gets pulled over. Does the bartender pay the fines because he/she served the beer, while the driver only looses his license? Nope, the driver pays for both the fines and loss of license because he called the shot to get behind the wheel of a vehicle.

I'm afraid if it were me, which it never will be, I'd try to get it written into the contract that the PH would be responsible for any fines rendered because of misjudging the age of a lion. The PH is the expert and not me; therefore, I must trust his judgement.

I like the idea in concept. I also think this is a GREAT way to get corruption and confusion, in a part of the world where both can already be an issue. I could be wrong, but I thought the age was not confirmed by mouthing for wear like a deer but rather xraying the nerve within the tooth. Maybe quota is a better solution. I just know that for completely selfish reasons that if it takes some being progressive or proactive on our end so there is still lion hunting 5-7 years from now I'm all for it. I don't pretend to know a fraction of what some of you guys do about the situation over there, but it seems plain to me that changes are coming and as a minority (sport hunters) we need to at least entertain practices that are geared toward continuing lion hunting in some fashion.

The problem isn't how many it's how old and which ones. If PHs only let clients shoot 6+ year old lions without a pride or with a pride that doesn't have dependant young then no quota would be needed. You could shoot every one you saw and it wouldn't adversely affect the lion population. However shooting young lions and especially young males with dependant cubs in their pride kills a lot more than one lion. With the death of that one male ALL the cubs WILL be killed when a new male takes over the pride. And since prides are teritorial if you have opperators shooting the pride lion of a given pride every year the population will crash from a lack of cubs. So yes there does need to be an age restriction. However in many countries without age restrictions they should probably drop the quota until they are willing to go with the age rule.

Brett

We have just returned from hunting in Tanzania, and despite seeing an absolutely stunning looking lion - about 4 years of age - and returning empty handed lionwise, I have no regrets at all.

However, the Tanzanian authorities are turning a blind eye to rampant poaching!

In one area we hunted, Ugalla, there were 5 elephant carcases killed by poachers in a very short time.

We have seen a number of poaching camps, with animal bones right next to them.

Brett has it right about management principles etc.

Tanzania already has a quota system (although admittedly, it could probably do with a bit of reviewing) and as Brett says, it's more a case of which ones you shoot rather than simply how many.

Saeed,

Welcome back bwana. It sounds like you had a great safari.

Nothing is set in stone yet but that is the direction that we are going; hopefully a formula will be adopted that won't penalize the client but rather the PH/Outfitters.

I'm sure they're considering many different penalty options but one I'd tentatively suggest is perhaps if an outfitter takes a non appropriate trophy he then loses 2 off the quota the following year.

This is going to one of Africas biggest cluster%#*&#"s of all time. Low light lions, clients paying through the roof to hunt them, the scared to death PH sweating blood over the shoot- don"t shoot thing, OH MY...
In principal this all sounds fine, in reality it is promising to be a headache of Biblical proportions. The "Good, Bad and Ugly" section in The Hunting Report will need to add about 30 pages when this thing gets underway. I do agree with those that said that the financial outlook for Tanzania game scouts has never been brighter! Let the good times roll...

Dave,

The really good companies have been doing it for years without any major problems.

My guess is the better PHs will be fine, the second raters won't and success rates will drop to some extent......... and at the risk of putting a few noses out of joint, I don't think a lower success rate is a particularly bad thing if it means fewer inappropriate Lions get taken.

It's often a difficult choice for the PH to decide whether or not an animal is a shooter or not..... esp in Tanzania where penalties for any infraction of the rules are severe but it's all part of the job, as is this.

I agree Steve, and you have , as others have,made good points. BUT the first guy that pays the fee, gets a fine to boot, and CANNOT IMPORT will simply go mad and this will be happening in the future- the near future if this gets implemented. I have a fair amount of time in Tanz, as you do, and I we know the potential for problems this brings on.
I'll vote for whatever is best for the lions, and this may be it, but there will be more than a few pissed off hunters before this all shakes out in MHO.

The beauty of a safari is leaving the red tape and bureauracy at home in the States. This takes some of that type of appeal away from the safari expereince. Granted, you are thrilled if you shoot a MGM lion, but for me, it would take some of the fun out of the overall experience.


+1

Seloushunter

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I we know the potential for problems this brings on.
I'll vote for whatever is best for the lions, and this may be it, but there will be more than a few pissed off hunters before this all shakes out in MHO.

Dave,

Mate, I can't help but feel you're dead right with that statement.

When I think of some of the ones such as Mad Bob ????????, I shudder to think what he might end up doing!

More seriously, it'll certainly sort out the wheat from the chaff and it'll also prove that despite high prices and maybe lower success rates on the species, companies such as TGTS etc had it dead right all along.

Brett: I cannot figure out why you have taken issue with my humble opinion that a high level of government oversight, potential sanctions, and forfeiture of the lion trophy would diminish my overall enjoyment of a lion safari? I even stated, "I am fully in favor of shooting the older males".

Does not compute?

Safari Lawyer,

I think Brett was trying to point out that age is just one of many factors involved in taking the right animal. I don't think his comment was a criticism of your comment.

Technically speaking, the various TZ game law penalties have included similar possible penalties for all inappropriate trophies since the 60s....... but you'll notice the forfiture etc is very rarely applied.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Brett: I cannot figure out why you have taken issue with my humble opinion that a high level of government oversight, potential sanctions, and forfeiture of the lion trophy would diminish my overall enjoyment of a lion safari? I even stated, "I am fully in favor of shooting the older males".

Does not compute?

Sorry Will I didn't mean to be a butt. I was as Shakari stated just trying to point out some problems with not enforcing laws. The part about enforcing laws was in response to your post and the rest of it was a general comment to all rather than directed to you. I appologize for any offense.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
This is going to one of Africas biggest cluster%#*&#"s of all time. Low light lions, clients paying through the roof to hunt them, the scared to death PH sweating blood over the shoot- don"t shoot thing, OH MY...
In principal this all sounds fine, in reality it is promising to be a headache of Biblical proportions. The "Good, Bad and Ugly" section in The Hunting Report will need to add about 30 pages when this thing gets underway. I do agree with those that said that the financial outlook for Tanzania game scouts has never been brighter! Let the good times roll...

_______________________________________________


Well said. Lion hunting is almost over my friends.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff h:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
This is going to one of Africas biggest cluster%#*&#"s of all time. Low light lions, clients paying through the roof to hunt them, the scared to death PH sweating blood over the shoot- don"t shoot thing, OH MY...
In principal this all sounds fine, in reality it is promising to be a headache of Biblical proportions. The "Good, Bad and Ugly" section in The Hunting Report will need to add about 30 pages when this thing gets underway. I do agree with those that said that the financial outlook for Tanzania game scouts has never been brighter! Let the good times roll...

_______________________________________________


Well said. Lion hunting is almost over my friends.

That's the part that worries me. I sincerely hope you are wrong, (as I'm sure you do too) but I'm afraid you may be right.

The lion populations are in decline, this is needed. I am glad gthey aren't threatening to report US hunters to USFG for prosecution under the Lacey act.

I hope they have reliable method for aging lions on the hoof and ground since the stakes are so high. Some good research in the area recently.

And I think taking away a PH's license is a bit harsh, maybe restrict them to plainsgame for a few seasons would be a bit better.

Reduce quotas drastically or even put a 5 year ban on hunting them - that would be the right thing to do. All this penalty @#$* will create untold problems; increased corruption, unhappy clients, apprehensive PH's.

The Lion is being systematically wiped off the continent, and yes, will be gone in a number of years unless we act responsibly NOW. CITES needs to step in, and limit their exportation.

It is already an expensive undertaking, but perhaps the notion of not being able to harvest one these great cats will instil a sense of conservative responsibility to ensure their survival and future possible harvesting.

More then likely that route will accelerate there demise. Without hunting they will mostly be a net liability to everyone from ranchers to villagers and even to outfitters (except for the 3 prides needed for those photo safaris).

John has it right. Also, the ****ing Maasi are poisoning the things at an astonishing rate, and will continue to do so with the same eye to the future that they employ while turning the bush to desert from gross overgrazing. The vast majority of indigenous Africans cannot see past what's for lunch today, and that will not be changing. Of course CITIES will blame sport hunting, and we will take the blame. Hate to sound bitter, but I am as I see game being managed by idiots with zero experience in the bush instead of the vanishing men of the wrong color with love and understanding for the game . Instead we have corrupt councils, politicians,and leaders who use wildlife as chips in the big game of lining their own pockets. And with Tanzania allowing the ongoing slaughter in the Selous,they deserve what they get as the loss of revenue continues. I feel for the honest outfitters still trying to make an honest living in this country, once the best in Africa. They have their work cut out for them if the government does not step up FAST. Heres to the scientist that can develop a strain of 'domestic animal only' rinderpest!!!!!!!"

it's called the tse tse fly.

...reverse those self serving eradication programs and return land to the wild

What do you think they mean when they say "from the urgent need to address the problem posed by tsetse-transmitted diseases, which threatens the health and productivity of people and livestock, affects land use and severely constrains Africa's socioeconomic development"
I don't see wildlife mentioned.


http://www.africa-union.org/St...ssion/depPattec.htm#

The Masai are their own worst enemis with the way they kill Lions and destroy the bush by permitting illegal charcoal burning. For example most of Mto Wa Mbu is completely buggered nowadays.......... and the second worst enemies are all those bloody God squad do-gooders that get up there and give the Masai money and facilities whilst not noticing all their cattle wealth and assuming acute poverty.

In a few years time, we'll see all the charities passing the begging bowl to help the poor starving Masai who now live in a desert of their own making.

Whilst in principal shooting plus 5 year old lions is a very good rule, the practical application of this policy is going to be a headache and as per many posts above will definitely make Ph's apprehensive about calling the shot. I just had a hunter take a magnificent lion by stalking a bait at first light. The lion was lying in a river bed 100m off the bait and spotted us as we saw him. I had a split second to judge him and the hunter took him. He was full maned and I estimated his age at between 5 and 6 years old after looking at his teeth.

It was first - early light and the lion was 120 yards from us.

Would I have said shoot if there was a potential $5000 fine hanging over me - NO.

And the hunter would not have got a great great trophy.

It is easy for office wallahs to x-ray teeth. I hunt a lot of lions by tracking, as I have a very capable tracker - which few PH's do in Tanzania. This is the finest, most ethical way to hunt a lion. If I am forced to look for "pink" noses and make split second decisions a lot of hunters will go home lionless after paying big money.

BTW I do not countenance shooting young lions at all, and do not do so. But being judged on an x-ray from a hunting situation is a problem for me.

IMO quotas rigidly adhered to and panalties for shooting blatantly young lions should be enough. When we are starting to email photos of lions for permission to shoot to head office we are not hunting any more.