quote:

Originally posted by Balule:
1)It seems that context is important.
2)It seems that trust should work both ways.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
You won't see me next year, Buzz, or ever again.

This business you are in is based on trust, and you have lost mine.

Others can decide for themselves.

Speaking only for myself, I will say that once you lose my trust, you don't get it back.

Of course, I do applaud your latest business decision on trophy fees, belated, and only after public pressure, as it may be.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I have watched with admiration and respect as Buzz and Myles have built their business from one where they were buying bits and pieces of quota from other operators and hunting the concessions of other operators to one where they now control and operate a number of the very best concession areas in Zimbabwe. I have hunted with them more than a dozen times and have recommended that many others hunt with them all of whom have been extremely pleased and many of whom have become repeat clients themselves. They not only have my complete trust but my respect as well. In a day and age of operators that can often be shady or dodgy they represent what the industry can be.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Buzz,
Sorry your dealing with this, I am sure you know better than anyone, "paying" hunters can be the biggest of crybabies. Not much more embarrassing than watching a grown "accomplished" man flop around on the ground (or internet forum) when he perceives things dont go his way. I understand and sympathize completely with the experience of customers leaving you holding the bag and the expense incurred. I also have witnessed in my own decision making the human tendency to put in place restrictive policies that negatively affect longstanding relationships. BTW, you are completely within your rights to do so and not wrong, however, you have to withstand the blowback. What I have found is that there is usually some middle ground that is firm enough for me to stand. Perhaps a policy of if you want to reserve quota (no matter who you are or how long I have known you) you can put a deposit on it that covers my cost. Otherwise, I am going to start doing my job of filling that quota from day one, and if what you want is here when you arrive, we will do our best to fill it then. It would seem someone who took issue with that type policy would not be the type client an accomplished business like yours would want for a client.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Balule:
1)It seems that context is important.
2)It seems that trust should work both ways.

Yes.

And I am absolutely certain we have a lot more crooked clients than we gave crooked PHs.

I hear a lot of horror stories, which the PHs don’t like to put out in public.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
You won't see me next year, Buzz, or ever again.

This business you are in is based on trust, and you have lost mine.

Others can decide for themselves.

Speaking only for myself, I will say that once you lose my trust, you don't get it back.

Of course, I do applaud your latest business decision on trophy fees, belated, and only after public pressure, as it may be.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
You won't see me next year, Buzz, or ever again.

This business you are in is based on trust, and you have lost mine.

Others can decide for themselves.

Speaking only for myself, I will say that once you lose my trust, you don't get it back.

Of course, I do applaud your latest business decision on trophy fees, belated, and only after public pressure, as it may be.

quote:

Originally posted by Balule:
1)It seems that context is important.
2)It seems that trust should work both ways.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
First off thanks for all the positive comments from you all. I have always tried my best to stay out of any topic that involves public debate as I have seen over the years very little is achieved and it brings out the worst in many people.

However, despite the fact that I am still inclined to simply bite my tongue when someone questions my integrity and trustworthiness I am obliged to answer.

Michael few facts about your hunt.
1/ You were on a 14-day double buffalo hunt at below our standard cost
2/ Your wife came in at an observer fee which I also reduced by us$50/day from our regular cost
3/ You had shown an interest in a tuskless and we agreed that you could trade one of your buff for a tuskless if you wanted to.
4/ Should you shoot both your buff and you had time I had offered you a tuskless at a slightly exaggerated trophy fee.
5/ You and Kieth were aware at any time you wanted to move from the East to the North you could go.

The hunt then started, yes it was hard as all our hunts have been due to late rains. You missed a buffalo on day 6 and called it quits after 9 days- leaving a FULL 6 hunting days!!! You could have gone to the North - you could have changed track and hunted a tuskless. So much can happen in 6 hunting days but instead you pulled the plug!

I then covered yours and Lindys plane tickets to and from the Falls. Booked your whole trip on very short notice and even got you a free upgrade at the Vic Falls Hotel. Your parting words to me sitting on my verandah was " It is what it is and you did not want to make a scene out of it" Unfortunately I guess your ego and failure got the better of you.

So feel free to correct any of the statements above all of which are on email or the contract. Out of 22 years at an average of 1000 dangerous game hunt days a year (for the last several) we have only ever had 1 client not complete his hunt- thats you, and we have only ever had 2 clients that are not welcome back- yourself and gorge Bazos.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
You won't see me next year, Buzz, or ever again.

This business you are in is based on trust, and you have lost mine.

Others can decide for themselves.

Speaking only for myself, I will say that once you lose my trust, you don't get it back.

Of course, I do applaud your latest business decision on trophy fees, belated, and only after public pressure, as it may be.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
First off thanks for all the positive comments from you all. I have always tried my best to stay out of any topic that involves public debate as I have seen over the years very little is achieved and it brings out the worst in many people.

However, despite the fact that I am still inclined to simply bite my tongue when someone questions my integrity and trustworthiness I am obliged to answer.

Michael few facts about your hunt.
1/ You were on a 14-day double buffalo hunt at below our standard cost
2/ Your wife came in at an observer fee which I also reduced by us$50/day from our regular cost
3/ You had shown an interest in a tuskless and we agreed that you could trade one of your buff for a tuskless if you wanted to.
4/ Should you shoot both your buff and you had time I had offered you a tuskless at a slightly exaggerated trophy fee.
5/ You and Kieth were aware at any time you wanted to move from the East to the North you could go.

The hunt then started, yes it was hard as all our hunts have been due to late rains. You missed a buffalo on day 6 and called it quits after 9 days- leaving a FULL 6 hunting days!!! You could have gone to the North - you could have changed track and hunted a tuskless. So much can happen in 6 hunting days but instead you pulled the plug!

I then covered yours and Lindys plane tickets to and from the Falls. Booked your whole trip on very short notice and even got you a free upgrade at the Vic Falls Hotel. Your parting words to me sitting on my verandah was " It is what it is and you did not want to make a scene out of it" Unfortunately I guess your ego and failure got the better of you.

So feel free to correct any of the statements above all of which are on email or the contract. Out of 22 years at an average of 1000 dangerous game hunt days a year (for the last several) we have only ever had 1 client not complete his hunt- thats you, and we have only ever had 2 clients that are not welcome back- yourself and gorge Bazos.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
You won't see me next year, Buzz, or ever again.

This business you are in is based on trust, and you have lost mine.

Others can decide for themselves.

Speaking only for myself, I will say that once you lose my trust, you don't get it back.

Of course, I do applaud your latest business decision on trophy fees, belated, and only after public pressure, as it may be.

There are so many falsehoods in this hit piece that I am nearly overwhelmed by them. Preserving this for a full response, which you can be sure will be forthcoming as soon as time permits.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Hard for me to see someone responding to a post by someone else who has brought their trustworthiness and integrity into question as doing a “hit piece” but whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
You won't see me next year, Buzz, or ever again.

This business you are in is based on trust, and you have lost mine.

Others can decide for themselves.

Speaking only for myself, I will say that once you lose my trust, you don't get it back.

Of course, I do applaud your latest business decision on trophy fees, belated, and only after public pressure, as it may be.

I have watched with admiration and respect as Buzz and Myles have built their business from one where they were buying bits and pieces of quota from other operators and hunting the concessions of other operators to one where they now control and operate in their own name a number of the very best concession areas in Zimbabwe. I have hunted with them more than a dozen times and have recommended that many others hunt with them all of whom have been extremely pleased and many of whom have become repeat clients themselves. They not only have my complete trust but my respect as well. In a day and age of operators that can often be shady or dodgy they represent what the industry can be.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
First off thanks for all the positive comments from you all. I have always tried my best to stay out of any topic that involves public debate as I have seen over the years very little is achieved and it brings out the worst in many people.

However, despite the fact that I am still inclined to simply bite my tongue when someone questions my integrity and trustworthiness I am obliged to answer.

Michael few facts about your hunt.
1/ You were on a 14-day double buffalo hunt at below our standard cost

I do not know what your standard cost is. I simply asked what you charged and agreed to pay it. You told me it would be $1,400/day for a 12 day hunt, and $1,250/day for a 14 day hunt. In any case, as I say, I simply agreed to pay your quoted rate. This has nothing to do with the quality of the hunt and I have no idea why you are bringing it up. Are you trying to paint me as an ingrate because you allegedly did me a favor and yet I posted the sad truth about hunting with you?

2/ Your wife came in at an observer fee which I also reduced by us$50/day from our regular cost

You told me your observer rate was $300/day. I told you that I am used to having observer rates waived. You lowered the rate to $200/day and I agreed to pay it. Again, this has nothing to do with the quality of the hunt and I can only guess at your motive for bringing it up.

3/ You had shown an interest in a tuskless and we agreed that you could trade one of your buff for a tuskless if you wanted to.
4/ Should you shoot both your buff and you had time I had offered you a tuskless at a slightly exaggerated trophy fee.

After we had signed the contract, you advertised a tuskless here on AR for a trophy fee of $5,500. I asked you if you would add one to my contract at that price. You then offered to add one for $5,500 if I only shot one buffalo, or $7,500 if I shot two buffalo and the tuskless. I was really after buff, and more than a bit puzzled as to the pricing, but agreed to add the elephant to the contract on those terms.

5/ You and Kieth were aware at any time you wanted to move from the East to the North you could go.

I don't know about Keith, but NO ONE told me that I could relocate camp until you offered me a relocation to Dande North after I had decided to call it quits because of the conditions we were facing and the highly pressured, skittish nature of the buffalo. By then I had lost all confidence in you and your operation. If I had known beforehand that the buffalo in Dande had been so pressured by poaching activity, I would never have booked with you. But I didn't know until I had experienced it firsthand for nine solid days. Nice of you, by the way, to admit that the buff in Dande East are "often chased by poachers" only after my hunt was over, when you wrote precisely that in one of your posts in my hunt report thread. As I say, I would not have booked with you had I known this. There are far too many good areas in Africa to hunt buffalo for me to settle for a place where poachers terrorize the game.

The hunt then started, yes it was hard as all our hunts have been due to late rains. You missed a buffalo on day 6 and called it quits after 9 days- leaving a FULL 6 hunting days!!! You could have gone to the North - you could have changed track and hunted a tuskless. So much can happen in 6 hunting days but instead you pulled the plug!

9 + 6 = 15, not 14. But that is beside the point. As I noted in my hunt report, there were a number of reasons I called it quits after nine days of hunting. But the chief reason was that I had lost all confidence in you and your operation. Hunting is supposed to be fun, not a bloody ordeal chasing spooked game under impossible conditions. I repeat, for the record, I have nothing but the highest praise for Keith and the team of trackers we followed for an average of 15K per day through the thickets. I have hunted and killed buffalo in three African nations (besides this latest hunt in Zimbabwe), and I have never experienced anything close to the awful conditions and pressured game that we saw in Dande East. And again, a tuskless elephant was not my primary quarry, but merely a last minute add on.

I then covered yours and Lindys plane tickets to and from the Falls. Booked your whole trip on very short notice and even got you a free upgrade at the Vic Falls Hotel. Your parting words to me sitting on my verandah was " It is what it is and you did not want to make a scene out of it" Unfortunately I guess your ego and failure got the better of you.

We appreciated your help in booking the hotel, although no one mentioned anything to me about a free upgrade. They quoted me a price and we paid it. I did not ask you to pay our air fares, but I appreciated it as a nice gesture. Today I wired you $928 to cover that cost, as I can no longer accept it. You left out a critical part of what I told you that day on your verandah. I added that there would be time to hash out the details of this safari later. I guess you expected that I would not post a hunt report, or tell anyone about the hunt? I felt it was necessary, almost a public service.

So feel free to correct any of the statements above all of which are on email or the contract. Out of 22 years at an average of 1000 dangerous game hunt days a year (for the last several) we have only ever had 1 client not complete his hunt- thats you, and we have only ever had 2 clients that are not welcome back- yourself and gorge Bazos.

I have already said I will never hunt with you again, so I am not broken-hearted that I won't be welcome. I will return to Zimbabwe, but most definitely not with you. The recent pandemic has made more than one hunting outfit less than forthright these days. I can only conclude, given the many good men who have hunted with you over the years, pre-pandemic, and who sing your praises, that the economic impacts of the pandemic must have affected your business practices for the worse. In my case, you sold me a hunt in a poacher's paradise, in an area where they were clearly given a free hand during the pandemic. And now, here on AR, witness your efforts to charge up front for trophy fees on a non-refundable basis. We hunters must be more than careful these days, and you can bet I have learned my lesson well.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
You won't see me next year, Buzz, or ever again.

This business you are in is based on trust, and you have lost mine.

Others can decide for themselves.

Speaking only for myself, I will say that once you lose my trust, you don't get it back.

Of course, I do applaud your latest business decision on trophy fees, belated, and only after public pressure, as it may be.

There are so many falsehoods in this hit piece that I am nearly overwhelmed by them. Preserving this for a full response, which you can be sure will be forthcoming as soon as time permits.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Hard for me to see someone responding to a post by someone else who has brought their trustworthiness and integrity into question as doing a “hit piece” but whatever.

The previous two times its happened on here, I remember it not turning out well for the client.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Hard for me to see someone responding to a post by someone else who has brought their trustworthiness and integrity into question as doing a “hit piece” but whatever.

The previous two times its happened on here, I remember it not turning out well for the client.

. . . a prophetic observation.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I hope this gets resolved amicably. I know both parties. I consider both to be good people.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Nobody cares what I think and rightfully so, but I wish this discussion would stop.

The client hunter believes they had a bad experience and the Outfitter believes they did everything they could. Both parties are obviously experienced and well intentioned, it's just a bummer that good times or good hunts aren't guaranteed.

There's no good that's going to come of this discussion. There's no education to be gleaned, no revenge or justice to be had, it's just a roll in the shit for everyone. Walking off seems far healthier.