quote:

Originally posted by drongo:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
You won't see me next year, Buzz, or ever again.

This business you are in is based on trust, and you have lost mine.

Others can decide for themselves.

Speaking only for myself, I will say that once you lose my trust, you don't get it back.

Of course, I do applaud your latest business decision on trophy fees, belated, and only after public pressure, as it may be.

Have you ever hunted or plan to hunt Alaska? As a non-resident you have to pay for your tag ahead of time and if you don't succeed on the hunt or buy the tag and don't show up for whatever reason you are not getting the money back.

Just a thought!!

I don’t see why American hunters object to prepayment of the trophy fees. That’s how it works here when you buy a license. Buzz has every right to protect his bottom line.

The caveat of a pre-pay is that a hunter may desire to shoot a young(er) trophy just to go home with 'something.' This is part of the reason why John Blower changed the licensing in Uganda in the early 60s. The PH was under pressure to produce, the hunter hungry for a trophy, so animals often came off second best. Andrew alluded to this earlier.

Although, if I were serious about hunting a species and understood the situation as it is apparently here, I would either simply pay and hunt hard, nor not pay and not hunt. Pretty simple, really.

I've hunted with CMS several times and have never been asked to prepay anything other than daily rates, however; our last hunt was this past fyear and being as how the world was just coming out of the Covid disaster, I offered to prepay anticipated trophy fees and as I figured, Buzz and Myles declined my offer (this was in Dande East). I tend to stick with an outfitter I know and trust, I have a credit with our friends the Rudman's in SA for a hunt that won't be taken until 2024. I would gladly do the the same with CMS (have a buff hunt with them in 2024, too). I can understand their reasoning behind the request for prepayment, but I also think that western hunters are becoming disillusioned with some of the recent practices associated with hunting in Africa (greatly exaggerated charter fees, higher trophy and shipping fees, assorted "fees", etc.). Should CMS ask for advance trophy fees for my 2024 hunt, I will do so. I trust them to do everything in their power to make sure I have the opportunity to take that trophy, if I miss or wound (been there done that), it's on me. Wouldn't do that many other places.

quote:

Originally posted by K Evans:
I've hunted with CMS several times and have never been asked to prepay anything other than daily rates, however; our last hunt was this past fyear and being as how the world was just coming out of the Covid disaster, I offered to prepay anticipated trophy fees and as I figured, Buzz and Myles declined my offer (this was in Dande East). I tend to stick with an outfitter I know and trust, I have a credit with our friends the Rudman's in SA for a hunt that won't be taken until 2024. I would gladly do the the same with CMS (have a buff hunt with them in 2024, too). I can understand their reasoning behind the request for prepayment, but I also think that western hunters are becoming disillusioned with some of the recent practices associated with hunting in Africa (greatly exaggerated charter fees, higher trophy and shipping fees, assorted "fees", etc.). Should CMS ask for advance trophy fees for my 2024 hunt, I will do so. I trust them to do everything in their power to make sure I have the opportunity to take that trophy, if I miss or wound (been there done that), it's on me. Wouldn't do that many other places.

This^^^^^^

Not to hijack this thread but the "African outfitters" to include dip, pack, ship and taxidermy have, in my opinion, killed the Golden Goose.

I have almost no desire to go fight, the airlines, a crown, an outfitter, a shipping agent, US customs and the list goes on.

I'm glad I've experienced just about all there is to offer, Ethiopia being an exception.

I can have an exotic, sporting vacation in South America for a few thousand bucks. I enjoy it every bit as much, if not more than Africa. I get some or most of you don't or won't.

I'm toying with the idea of an extended Africa trip next fall, but am finding it difficult to make the decision of it being worth it.

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Shame. Shame the hunt did not work at as you planned Mike. Shame that this post is up here at all. Shame that you question Buzz, Myles and CMSs ethics on here and shame that the internet and public forums are (again) the place to wash dirty laundry.

Late one November, we were sitting on a house boat at 05:00 in the morning haze at Kariba. It was fierce hot even at such an early hour. I was pouring coffee when Buzz, glassing the opposite bank of the bay, shouted "Grab your rifle and ammo and come quick, quick!" Breakfast was over before it started and the next moment we were in the tender boat speeding across the bay. Buzz had seen two hippo bulls heading to water after feeding that night. We climbed out of the boat into thigh deep hyacinths and battled our way through the swamp like vegetation to try and cut off the bulls. My mind raced with thoughts of the 40 plus crocs that we had seen feeding on the carcass of my first hippo in the same bay the night before! The two bulls beat us to the water and were gone. An hour later we restarted our breakfast with laughter and smiles all around!

I have hunted with other outfitters that simply would have said "Over there, two hippo heading for the water from feeding," and carried on with breakfast.

I have the greatest of admiration and respect for Buzz, Myles and the whole of CMS and I get it that you Mike are an experienced Africa hunter.

I like to think that in the same circumstances, hunting with my wife as we always do together, that we would have gone on til the 'fat lady sang' and not thrown the towel early.

But as I wrote, it is a shame that this is all being aired on social media but it is out there now and whatever happens, you cannot unring a bell!

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quote:

Originally posted by Charlie64:
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Shame. Shame the hunt did not work at as you planned Mike. Shame that this post is up here at all. Shame that you question Buzz, Myles and CMSs ethics on here and shame that the internet and public forums are (again) the place to wash dirty laundry.

Late one November, we were sitting on a house boat at 05:00 in the morning haze at Kariba. It was fierce hot even at such an early hour. I was pouring coffee when Buzz, glassing the opposite bank of the bay, shouted "Grab your rifle and ammo and come quick, quick!" Breakfast was over before it started and the next moment we were in the tender boat speeding across the bay. Buzz had seen two hippo bulls heading to water after feeding that night. We climbed out of the boat into thigh deep hyacinths and battled our way through the swamp like vegetation to try and cut off the bulls. My mind raced with thoughts of the 40 plus crocs that we had seen feeding on the carcass of my first hippo in the same bay the night before! The two bulls beat us to the water and were gone. An hour later we restarted our breakfast with laughter and smiles all around!

I have hunted with other outfitters that simply would have said "Over there, two hippo heading for the water from feeding," and carried on with breakfast.

I have the greatest of admiration and respect for Buzz, Myles and the whole of CMS and I get it that you Mike are an experienced Africa hunter.

I like to think that in the same circumstances, hunting with my wife as we always do together, that we would have gone on til the 'fat lady sang' and not thrown the towel early.

But as I wrote, it is a shame that this is all being aired on social media but it is out there now and whatever happens, you cannot unring a bell!

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I will probably get some flack for this.

As I mentioned before, both Mike and Buzz are good friends of mine.

I have met both with their families.

This thread only came about because of unfair charges being applied by CMS, after they were cheated by a client.

They were trying to solve a problem, and in doing so created a bigger one.

Mike posted his hunt report, which was normal, nothing wrong with it.

Nothing negative was said.

Not until another member questioned the new payments demands CMS were asking.

This has brought out a lot of negative reactions to this policy, and I must give credit to Buzz for coming forward to explain it, and stop change it.

I think there is a lesson for all of us here.

Hi Mike,

I'm very sorry that your hunt did not work out how you wanted it to. The Zambezi Valley is a very hard place to hunt especially areas like Dande North, Dande East, Chewore North/South and others.

I just can't get my head around why you decided to quit after nine days in the East. If it had of been me there I would have moved to the North 100% and hunted for the remaining five days there.

I have known Buzz for 17 years and Myles even longer and consider them good friends. I filmed a few hunts for them back in 2005 and have hunted with them ever since. I trust everyone at CMS 100%. I would have no issue with pre paying for animals.

I hunted for 10 days in Dande North last month. I took my Buffalo on day one in the first three hours of the hunt. After that we concentrated on baiting for Hyena for four days, we then moved to the river for a few days Tiger fishing. In the last two days we moved to Pedza Camp to try for Hyena again.
There was a client hunting in the East with Keith while I was there and he took Buffalo, Sable, Warthog and Impala in ten days.

I hope to return in the next few years and hunt and fish in Nyakasanga with Dean.

quote:

I'm very sorry that your hunt did not work out how you wanted it to. The Zambezi Valley is a very hard place to hunt especially areas like Dande North, Dande East, Chewore North/South and others.

Personally, I do not think Mike or Lindy was aware of this and something was lost in communication. $1,400 a day is top dollar even for a prime area where you are judging trophy buff on a daily basis. I am not privy to their prior communication and therefore cannot comment further.

Mike is no spring chicken and was not expecting such a tough hunt. I thought his report was fair and his assessment was that it was monotonous and he was banging his head against a brick wall. A shot at a shadow without determining trophy quality proves that conditions were tough. Normally a buff hunt is concluded in 7 days and he gave it 9.

I am very sorry that Mike's hunt didn't turn out as hoped for or expected. He is a good man. He doesn't deserve some of what has been sent his way.

There is little doubt that Dande is a difficult area. The time of year didn't help.

I have to admit the original pricing question came off as negative. I was shocked to learn that CMS was involved. It makes me think of two things that have drilled into my head for many years.

A wise man once told me to remember when communicating , whether verbally or in writing, to remember that you are the only one that knows what is going on in your head. Perhaps this entire issue could have been explained in a different way that would not have created the negative perception. This bring me to the second item.

The second thing is the saying that perception is reality. Creating a negative perception is a reality that one has to deal with. I think a negative perception was created, at least temporarily.

Personally, I trust both Buzz & Myles. When COVID hit, I sent them a deposit not knowing when I would be going. I am going next year , three years after putting up the deposit. That is trust.

I hope this entire matter ends amicably.

Just a comment here. My understanding of the whole concept of trophy fees was that you paid a daily rate and the trophy fee was paid when you killed your animal. In the case you did not kill your animal you did not pay the trophy fee. If the trophy fee (or part of the fee) is payable up front and non-refundable why even have it? Just include that price(trophy fee) in the daily price. To me a non-refundable fee defeats the whole reason for the fee. It would appear to be way easier for everyone involved to just say the hunt for these animals is a certain amount, and it does not matter if you get your animal or do not you pay that price.

quote:

Originally posted by MtElkHunter:
Just a comment here. My understanding of the whole concept of trophy fees was that you paid a daily rate and the trophy fee was paid when you killed your animal. In the case you did not kill your animal you did not pay the trophy fee. If the trophy fee (or part of the fee) is payable up front and non-refundable why even have it? Just include that price(trophy fee) in the daily price. To me a non-refundable fee defeats the whole reason for the fee. It would appear to be way easier for everyone involved to just say the hunt for these animals is a certain amount, and it does not matter if you get your animal or do not you pay that price.

Non refundable trophy fee is VERY BAD for business.

Those insisting on it will never get my business.

Gentlemen, and you know who you are:

Thank you for your kind and understanding words.

Reading, both literally and between the lines, is a lost art these days, especially on public fora.

I often find that I am hampered, even among native English speakers, by a precise understanding of the English language.

As I age, I find that I make fewer mistakes in life, although I am far from perfect and certainly still make my full share of them.

And please, Andrew, as you well know, although I am no longer a spring chicken, I am still plenty strong enough to handle any hunt I tackle, so I prefer to be thought of as an old rooster.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Gentlemen, and you know who you are:

Thank you for your kind and understanding words.

Reading, both literally and between the lines, is a lost art these days, especially on public fora.

I often find that I am hampered, even among native English speakers, by a precise understanding of the English language.

As I age, I find that I make fewer mistakes in life, although I am far from perfect and certainly still make my full share of them.

And please, Andrew, as you well know, although I am no longer a spring chicken, I am still plenty strong enough to handle any hunt I tackle, so I prefer to be thought of as an old rooster.

And from your hunt report, Michael, you gave it a good go

Eventually, everyone will arrive at the point where we say “Enough is enough.” It’s great to hear that you were able to enjoy the remainder of your time in Africa and have a good time.

Life is good and we are all very fortunate to be able to indulge in our passion

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Originally posted by Saeed:

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Originally posted by ManuelM:
The 50% of the plains game fees on those specific animals seem quite reasonable considering the low quota they have

An outfitter asking this is not going to get me hunting with them.

Me neither.

I just read this thread.
I read Mike’s report and it reminded me of a couple of hunts and one fishing trip I have been on that had a similar script.

Like Mike, I booked with reputable outfits and one via a reputable agent.

On the failed fishing trip, I had my family. We are not skilled fisherman, but more like “catcher men”. All we wanted was a lot of potential fish in the boat. I explained this in writing and verbally to the agent and outfit. “No problem” was the reply.

Well it turned out that we’re fishing heavily fished water and using ultra light fly gear we had never seen before. Four of us caught 10 fish in 5 days in Argentina. I expressed my serious frustration and we switched gears to bird hunting. That saved the trip as we had fun chasing quail. I got back and told the agent that he sent us to a seriously over fished area and that he did not represent it accurately. The usual denials and excuses followed, so I dropped his entity from my memory.

The next mess was in Alaska on a bear hunt. Lots of promises by the agent and the outfitter, both of which I knew and trusted. We cut the hunt short one day due to incoming weather and not seeing any male bears in 9 days. The agent and I went to battle over promises made and not kept, promises of scouting and conditions that did not happen, and then promises to relocate to a different area that did not happen. I never settled the final bill, nor did the agent or outfitter offer to address my concerns and work something out. That fractured a friendship that will not be repaired.

On an African hunt in Zambia, I booked via an outfitter. He and I decided to add buffalo to the hunt in a different area and he would PH. He set up an area that was good. We shot buff. However, the guy/outfit he contracted with for the buff changed the deal and tried to rip us off on a variety of things we agreed in writing to. We cut that short by 2 days and went to the booking outfitters area.

After the hunt, the crooked outfitter made a lot of noise and extorted the original outfitter into paying phantom fees. I ended up fronting the honest outfitter some money to make this go away.

From these experiences, I learned the following -

1. Trust and faith in anything involving a lot money is “fraught with peril”. Trust and faith work fine until a train wreck occurs that will cost money.

2. When things go bad, cut your losses. That may mean quitting or changing tactics. But, don’t throw effort, time and money at a problem/situation you cannot fix. For an experienced international hunter, it takes about 2 hours at a camp and in an area to tell if the outfitter is legit or not. In Mike’s case, we know he has experience. We know that Buzz etal., run good operation based on history with experienced hunters. However, sometimes things go bad, as in this case.
I don’t fault Mike for quitting. After 10days of chasing LDE in CAR, I nearly quit. I would have but there was no way out of camp due to remoteness and lack of a charter. We stuck it out another 2 days and took a good bull. Luck or persistence or both? I don’t know. What I know is the guy that came in after me spent 28 days and never saw an eland. I would have quit that hunt.

3. Do your homework and be double sure what you are getting into. I went to Tajikistan in Feb.thinking “ how cold can it get”? Well, -35C every night was cold and brutal.

4. Even the combo of a good hunter and good outfitter can go bad. When it does, cut your losses however you perceive that to be.

So, this is a risky endeavor for outfitter and hunter. However, the hunter is the one that is out a lot of money and no way to recover. The outfitter has the next client. I really don’t want to start that discussion, but it has merit.

I hope this can get settled somewhat as no one will be happy either way…

I have NEVER, EVER, seen collective punishment work!

It is as stupid as it gets.

No difference than those screaming BAN GUNS each time a stupid criminal Al shoots

You have a problem?

Solve it with a bit of thought.

A crook treated you wrong?

Punish him.

Not others.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have NEVER, EVER, seen collective punishment work!

It is as stupid as it gets.

No difference than those screaming BAN GUNS each time a stupid criminal Al shoots

You have a problem?

Solve it with a bit of thought.

A crook treated you wrong?

Punish him.

Not others.