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Larry, I personally hope SCI, DSC, HSC, etc- all thrive- I cannot speak for Dave or others- my comments were not based on "SCI Bashing" or "having a poor show"- we had a very good show (no I was not in Dave's --booth) I still stand by what I (and similar observations by others besides Dave) previously posted- "Dave my guess was a down third , rather than 1/4-- though the stretched out floor plan could have accounted for some small amount of thinning the crowd." This observation was not meant to be a "slap" at SCI rather , just an observation- one that was discussed by many vendors during the show itself, not just after the show completed- I also tend to agree with Phillip from Intrepid Safari's- during the daytime auctions the traffic flow went down perceptibly-- I understand the auctions bring in SCI more money-- but with all the money spent by the vendor's SCI should at the very least--listen-- and perhaps what appears me and to many of us as -your overly defensive , almost attack dog position with respect to almost any non-positive comments on SCI or its convention could also be moderated a tad- after all as a life member ,you are an ambassador for SCI-- and you are evaluated as such- as always, opinions are worth the value you place on them | |||
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Vendors do not have to donate - they can instead pay extra for their booth spaces. At the end of the day it is all about increasing visitor numbers again. That is up to all involved. SCI knows it - they are conscious of it. Its pretty hard around here when people are encouraging others to drop their membership. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Matt I was rearranging the the first paragraph when you posted (as you will see above) I thought it read better -- I will stand by either edit- That said-- When the vendors feel squeezed to donate or "pay extra for their booth spaces"- and life members are attacking any non-positive observation or comment - how are the vendors and potential new or re-joining member supposed to interpret those actions-- as welcoming and encouraging? My initial comment was not "grinding an axe" ; as stated just an observation and similar comments by others-- and no, it was not my comment specifically that was attacked-- it was Dave'- Dave and I are not close-- merely acquaintances- I will tell you-- as you can see from my second post ( that you copied) I was offended by the attack-- And again-- it does not reflect well on SCI- nor in my opinion does your comment-- "Vendors do not have to donate - they can instead pay extra for their booth spaces. " To me --It comes off sounding pretty badly, almost extorting-- even it it was not intended in that manner-- Perceptions matter- Vendors are just as important as members- Take either for granted at your own peril- Again-- this entire brew-ha started over some people expressing an observation about the crowd size-- I for one--non-maliciously-- then the attacks started-- true I could have been quiet-- I was a not attacked-- but as you can see--I'm tired of it- SCI is not on my "hit" list--but it is not a sacred cow either-- and on and on we go | |||
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Whichever way you want to look at it they still get shafted and the final nail in the coffin is having the auctions when the crowd is at full capacity and thus denying the vendors the time they paid for! Smart move by SCI management but shows what cloth they are stitched from. | |||
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My observations as a exhibitor for what it is worth. Some exhibitors were happy other were not. Not my very best show but far from the worst. Came home feeling very OK. I also did not notice my traffic changing during the daytime auctions. Hard to judge overall attendance, I will have to wait for the gate numbers from SCI for that. The show seemed bigger this year so I suspect the crowd was more spread out. Ken DRSS, PP Chapter Life NRA Life SCI Life DSC | |||
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I fail to understand how someone expressing an opinion that numbers were down is an attack on SCI. | |||
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Look, Larry sellers is a guy I could not pick out of a lineup of Chinamen. Perhaps he could say the same about me. He has always been a very strong supporter on AR of SCI. Fine. As a top 40 points member of SCI, I am not going out on any limb to say that I have funded more than my share of SCI expenses over the last 15 years, life member or not.It is also clear that, for whatever reason, Larry Sellers has always had an axe to grind with me, and seemingly anything I am involved with such as our TV series, or Chifuti. If you are a member here, I think that would be obvious by now.Also fine as that is his right. Indeed Larry, my observations were merely my own,based on 15 years of SCI convention participation, nothing more. Certainly they are not based on actual gate info, as that has never been clearly shared with me on the many occasions as a vendor I have requested it. Yes, my business was down, as was just about every Zim based outfit I met with. And that includes most.Between Africa, and our own governments USF&W the safari business is under strain to merely survive, much less thrive.Our booth was busy with old and potential clients to a level I was happy with under the conditions, including my perceived feelings that attendance was down. And again, that feeling was based on years of attending, as a vendor, the SCI show. Kind of funny to always be in the crosshairs of AR's No# 1 SCI cheerleader when I am one of the largest donor's to that outfits convention. But it is a cross I can easily bear. So as usual, anything other than glowing praise of any SCI decision, action, or convention is met with an attack from Larry Sellers. Times 10 if it happened to be from me. Not a damn thing I can do about that.Larry,sorry that you have been annoyed to such a degree over the years by someone who, as far as I know, you have never met.But you are free to say and act as you wish, and it is a waste of my time to feel that your negative feelings, wherever they came from when it concerns anything I am involved with, will change. Matt is also a very strong supporter of SCI, and we have differed many times on opinions, yet he is a guy I would give a kidney to. He does not take it personally as you have done for so long with me and many others here... Dave Fulson | |||
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I do not "do" shows any more. I view all shows as a bad habit that many just persist on doing. For some they are one of only a handful of venues for what they have to offer. From a business stand point they do not generate enough return for the total cost in doing them and, from a personal standpoint, they are just sheer torture and nothing that I enjoy or consider a "holiday". The SCI show program for exhibitors has always been relatively expensive and involved donations. For many years you had a hard time getting on the donor list and how much you donated had a lot to do with how soon you actually managed to get a booth. It has changed a bit here and there but overall what donors are faced with to play the game has changed little. It is what it is. No one is forcing anyone to be a vendor. If you want to play the game, well then you have to anti up with the price of admission. Do I agree with how it is run. No. Because of that I decided a long time ago not to jump on the bandwagon. Everyone else has the same option open to them. Nothing will change until things get bad enough that vendor numbers and donations drop off to a degree that those who run it are forced to pay attention. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Dave - First off I am not a Chinaman. Second we have met on several occasions, but I am not surprised that you do not recall. No axe to grind with you simply was asking about how you arrived at your 25% attendance reduction at this years Convention. When SOMEONE quotes a percentage of something, no matter what the subject, it is normal procedure to produce numbers to validate that claim rather than just pull it out of a hat based on perceptation. I guess you don't/didn't have any facts or figures for your comment so your only retort is to go off on me personally? Glad you had a good Show at SCI. Have a great day. Larry Sellers SCI Life Member
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As a data point I had to call the registration department at SCI about 10 days before the show. On a whim I asked how many people they were expecting. The lady at SCI told me 8,500 but was quick to add that didn't include staff or exhibitors. Needless to say I was shocked. | |||
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. . . promises, promises, promises. Mike | |||
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If vendors dont go the convention is screwed. They still seem to want to go. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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That sounds about right from what I heard but a lot would have booked in the last few days and there were queues for the first three days to register at the convention itself. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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The 25,000 attendance apparently counts the exhibitors as well as guests. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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I can see your plight. It must be a double whammy. First of all, "donating" a hunt costs you the cost of the hunt plus time expended in the field without profit. Second, potential clients with money in hand looking for hunts are buying them in the auction when they would otherwise buy a hunt from you or another vendor. Twenty hunts sold at auction means twenty customers who would have purchased vendor's hunts didn't. In essence, SCI is competing against the hunt vendors with their own, donated, hunts. At least that is they way it seems to me. The same would be happening for gun makers who donate guns. They are out the cost of the gun. Then, when it sells at auction, the gun makers are out a customer who has the money and is willing to purchase a gun.
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I understand SCI's plight as well, but having an "ambassador" for SCI such as the self righteous, condescending LarryS doesn't exactly reflect well, IMO. | |||
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Not quite SCI, but in my family's business it was always preferable to donate product for advertising revenue/exposure. You get to claim it's worth full retail, even though you never sell it at that, and you can charge extras (read trophy fees or extra animals) to recapture some of the loss. You write the value off as business expense and you have less cash in it than if you had paid cash for it. As it was explained to me, Dave is probably being a bit disengenuous here. SCI gives booth spaces to the top however many donors, and any past donations are added to your total. Thus anyone who has been there forever is way up on the donor list and really only pays the cash part for their spot, plus a donation if they want to move up in the rankings to get a better location or bigger spot, and at the higher levels it is probably a huge amount of money to move up. Of course, this system will really put a squeeze on new folks wanting to get in who have low profit margin items...like South African PG hunts. I can see where it hurts the small outfitter and boosts the guys who are selling stuff like high value clothing (which IMO, is getting to be way too much of a hunting convention...) But if you are not heavily capitalized, and if you want in at a decent spot, you are going to have to donate excessively. Does it have an adverse effect on hunt prices? Maybe so, but don't tell me that SCI is the only place that folks are doing this at. It's a business decision if the advertising revenue spent at SCI is worth it, and so far it seems to be, as most keep coming back. Do you guys honestly think that retailers have much clout with the TV networks on setting prices because "ads at the Super Bowl cost too much!" The hunting conventions are what they are. DSC isn't operating for free either, despite their lower cost profile by using volunteer help. Yes, SCI has lots of warts, and I would love to see some cleaning up of their act, but as far as I see it, the business side of the convention is one of the few dollars and cents based decisions they make. | |||
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For whatever it is worth, I was told by someone who is VERY respected that the new president is a good guy and working to eliminate the problems of the past. | |||
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The whole issue of donations, whether it is a donated product or service, etc. must be an accounting nightmare for SCI. Donated services and promises to give services are required to be recognized as contributions revenue, right? And can't an argument be made that donations, as structured by SCI, are an exchange transaction (since the vendor "gets" something in return for the donation)and as such should report that as income? It would seem far simpler to just charge vendors for a booth and dispense with the contributed hunts. Any vendors out there ever been audited? I am not an accountant, but one famous worldwide hunter that posted before me is. Any comments Larry? | |||
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Then, I would hope SCI comes on AR to answer questions and set the record straight. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I guess a lot depends on what country one is in and whether we are talking financial accounting or tax accounting which, at times, can vary widely. Assuming we are talking the US and financial accounting, I imagine the proper treatment is to record the auction proceeds as the revenue. Any other treatment would be a nightmare of biblical proportions. The vendors would NOT expense the amount at which the hunt was sold, rather their cost associated with that hunt. Personally, I would characterize these costs as advertising & promotion rather than contributions. There are more favorable tax rules for A&P compared to charitable contributions. In other words, in the right set of circumstances, the deduction might be taken earlier not to mention one avoids a bunch of documentation hassles. | |||
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No, all booths are the same basic cost (plus donation or the cash levy). It doesn't matter if it is a booth space for a long term exhibitor or the newcomers first booth. There used to be more expensive booths - but now they all seem to be the one price. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Under the for whatever it is worth category, I noted a few empty booths which were no shows. There seemed to be fewer of these to me. It is entirely possible that the larger number of square feet diluted the density of people attending. I was personally surprised at the number of people on Saturday. I thought it was down but I do not pretend to know the actual count. I also see another difference between DSC & SCI. The halls at DSC bother my feet and legs far more than SCI. SCI must have more padding under the carpet. It is noticeably different to both me and my wife. Timing was awful with it being Super Bowl weekend. These are personal observations and not intended to disparage SCI at all. | |||
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Pretty sure it is always Super Bowl weekend, in recent years anyway Larry. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Matt, the issue was getting in. This year they had a lot of new space, so I suppose anyone who wanted in got in, but if they have limited availability, it's who has the most total donations, and I believe that is also how they allow selection (location) of the booth or group of booths. The booth itself is whatever the charge is for one, although you know better than I if they make you pay some cash regardless of donation. | |||
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That may be Matt. It is the first time I could not get into my favorite restaurants. They were booked weeks ahead of time. | |||
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It has not always been superbowl weekend. Go Duke!! | |||
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There is a waiting list and selection from that list takes many things into account. Returning exhibitors have a transparent system for booth selection; not just based on donations but total amount spent with SCI (advertising, convention, etc) over the years. Yes of course there is a cost per booth beyond the donation/levy.... that is part of the total cost that exhibitors must decide if it is worthwhile. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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That is what I thought but was not sure. | |||
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Right you are! I do remember a couple of years... Looks like it is next year too though. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Well, since the convention ends Sat and the game is Sunday( and it isn't in LV anyway) what difference does it make???? Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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The town is full. It is difficult to get reservations at restaurants. Lines for cabs are long. And on and on and on.... | |||
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Super Bowl Sunday is SUPER busy in Las Vegas. We locals stay away from the strip and downtown on that Sunday. Actually it starts getting very busy on Friday and goes through Monday morning. | |||
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What are your favourite restaurants Larry? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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The one I absolutely could not get in is Michael's Gourmet Room. One of the best restaurants I have been anywhere in the world. | |||
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All the more reason to go to Dallas and not LV next year..... Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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Is the Super Bowl on the same weekend next year? February 1-4, 2017. It usually is not. | |||
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Maybe you have to book now!!!  Sure it was busy on the weekend but every weekend in Vegas seems busy to me. Didn't impact the convention - just Larry's dinner plans. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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It's February 5th. Same weekend. We'll miss you jdollar.  | |||
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No worries. I will find something else to spend the $500 entry fee on(4 days admission plus membership fee). Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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