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| <escard> |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ku-dude: [B]Escard, Weidmannsheil! Bitte, konnen Sie sagen was das Sicherheitsnormendruck fur das 9.3x62 ist?... dear ku-dude, with greetings from austria | ||
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| Administrator |
Gentlemen, Can you stick to a language we can all understand please? ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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one of us |
quote: Saeed, I do so. I just went a bit went a emotional about "Escard�s" first posting, which I found to "german" in it�s expressions. My own english knowledge is too poor for my emotions then. And now to Escard, who in german asks me about what I know about gas pressure in 9,3x62. Not enough, is my simple answer. It depends on the actual rifle and its action. Nactory loads or recommendations from powder or bullet makers are made to be used in all actions and old worn-out rusty old rifles. E.g. Swedish ammo factory Norma has for just 9,3x62 to consider that there are a lot of old Husqvarna M96 (the old swedish army mauser action)in that caliber still in use in the field. They can�t load that hard or recommend such loads. If then some experienced hunters, who know what they do, load harder, may that be quite OK in their OWN rifles - but you should perhaps not try that without loading up stepwise from standard in your own. I think most of us here are quite aware of this. I myself will try to load up my own old M98 9,3x57 to see what I gain. But I will do it carefully and with an open eye for all signs of high pressures. Best regards, Fritz K. | |||
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| one of us |
As Alf states my loads do exceed industry standards, Most any load I use exceeds industry standards, that is why I seldom refer to the grs. that I load in my particular rifle...I am probably running 50 to 55,000 PSI in all my rifles if the accuracy is there...Again I can seat the very longest bullets to the base of the neck as I modify my actions and chambers to do this, as opposed to blowing the shoulder out. Again my barrels are all 26" long as most of you know....these 9.3x62 cases will normally last about 6 loadings with 3 trimmings, if I don't anneal, which I don't..I toss them and start new after about 6 loadings...None of these loads have given me problems in the African heat over the years and I have been using these same loads for quite a number of years.....Just for the record I get 2290 av. with the 320 gr. in my 20" 9.3x62 Saur Mauser that I recently purchased, but that load is very mild and I could up it to 2300 plus I betcha... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Saeed, Certainly. I got carried away by all of the new visitors to the forum. We are just trying to establish what the normal operating pressure for the 9.3x62 is. Clearly, Ray and I exceed it. I wondered why, but Fritz' revelation that there are some M96 Mausers out there answers the question. Otherwise, most of the other rifles are capable of handling 30-06 pressures (55,000psi). My apologees to you and the others who don't speak German. Ku-dude | |||
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| <Clint> |
You can get an idea of why the 9.3x62 is loaded to low pressures when you consider it is a pre WWI round. For instance the 30-06 introduced in 1906 has lower pressures than the virtually identical 270 introduced in 1925. The difference is the tremendous improvements in metalurgy and ballistics during and after WWI. Fritz Kraut was dead on with his analysis. It is the danger of older, weaker rifles with this chambering that keeps factory ballistics where they are. Safe Hunting | ||
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Gentlemen, there are some information about those M96 here: Fritz K. | |||
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Interresting, as I was not aware that the m-96 was made in 9.3x62...I have also come to believe the m-96 is much stronger than the credit it has been given..That weakness was based on the fact that the original was loaded at low pressure for the military, so many have assumed it was a weak action, which in fact it is not...Blow up test I conducted years ago showed it to be as strong as about any action...Sure nuff problems didn't begin until pressures were in the 180,000 PSI range.. I would give my a$$ and half of Georgia for that little peep sight to stick on my 10.75x68... I only recently sold my 9,3x62 Husq. m-146 and it was as accurate as any rifle could be..I still have a 9.3x62 JP Saur full octogan Mauser... ------------------ | |||
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| <martin f> |
The German Frankonia catalog gives as max. pressures in bar, and the latest Vihtavuori handbook as pressure in psi (CIP piezo pressure): 9.3x62 3400 bar 56550 psi Martin | ||
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quote: Yes, so it is. And here in Sweden we have - IMHO - alway been a bit carefull with our dear M96. The common opinion here is that the M96 is less strong than the M98. There are some known accidents with M96 rifles which couldn�t handle the pressure of modern (!) cartridges as the .30-06. And recently there was an accident with a M96 6,5x55 at a shooting range, where the entire bolt blew into the face of the shooter, making him severly wounded. If the lugs gave up for the pressure, or it was a after-burner firing as the shooter opened the bolt isn�t quite cleared. However, swedish gunsmiths usually don�t recommend M96 for custom jobs in other calibers than 6,5x55, 9,3x57 and perhaps 8x57IS. They prefer the M98 or the reinforced FN M98 sporter action for standard and magnum calibers. And nobody here would ever think about customizing an original german Mauser sporter - they are to rare and nice for that. Fritz K. | |||
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FRitz, Be that as it may, when they were dirt cheap I bought a couple of them and tried to blow them up and about all I got done was to puff them up like a balloon and that was with about case full of Bullseye, the barrels ruptured before the action gave way....this wasn't an extensive test (3 rifles) but it convinced that when one blows it is more than likely human error....To blow a bolt back into ones face requires the shearing of lugs, and that was more than likely an over load with pistol powder..The pressure had to be beyond description...or the bolt was open on a hang fire, which I suspect and it which case any action would give way. In my mind the Weeds will handle 50,000 psi without problems, but that's just my opinion..based on my test..Other than that I have not built any rifles on the action as they wouldn't sell as well as the 98..... ------------------ | |||
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Ray, an interesting test, and indeed good news, as these army rifles still are very cheap here: you get one fairly brand new from the beginning of the last century for about 400 crowns, i.e. $40. I�m just wondering about the rumors of the weakness of M96 here in Sweden, but on the other side I don�t think anyone here has made such a test. Best regards, Fritz [This message has been edited by Fritz Kraut (edited 09-18-2001).] | |||
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Dag Gum it Ray just make sure you give away South Georgia!! Not the good part he,he,.....Mike ------------------ | |||
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Fritz, My research has pretty well revealed that the rumor of weakness in the well made M-96 was started by a gun writer of some fame, who assumed that because the military round was loaded to 40,000 PSI, that the actions were therefore soft.... Now, common since will tell you that all military rounds have been under loaded for all actions by all Governments since the adoption of smokeless powder, simply because it is cheaper to produce, better suited for military objectives, and will function in all climates and many other sound to ridicules reasons.... I believe this is the case with the M-96 and to some degree the M-95 Mauser...Many of the Mausers were blown up not from weak actions but from firing the wrong ammo in them. During late war time production many were purposely sabotaged by factory workers to assist the war effort, and unfortunately some of these were bound to get into civilian hands sooner or later..... I have never seen a Mauser blow up, I have seen them swell up until they would not function as that is one of the merits of a Mauser...Jack Belk has investigated many so called Mauser blowups and tells me you cannot blow a Mauser up as it will swell up like a balloon where other bolt actions will fly apart like a hand granide...That has also been my experience... ------------------ | |||
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| <Norbert> |
quote: A Mauser is not made from rubber and cann�t swell. If it blows up, it will fly apart as any other action made from steel. I personally saw three actions flying apart, onetime the extractor just a few inches in front of my head. Happy to be still alive. The lugs are not sheared off, but the receiver ring breaks and is widened, the bolt coming out sideways and the extractor flying away. The old Mausers are weaker than modern actions of same design and dimensions, 100 years of progress in metallurgy are not neglected. ------------------ | ||
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Now we have discussed the strength of actions, and concluded that they are stronger than we usually think. However, the weak part is perhaps not the action or barrel, but the case. How much does the quality of the case mean for the loadability of a cartridge? Yours, Fritz K. | |||
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Norbert, I'll go with Jack Belk as that is his speciality, He testifys nationwide in such cases and is last years Pres. of the Custom Gun Guild... I have seen a number of Puffed up mausers and I have never seen one come apart....Mausers, by design, are hardened on the inside and soft on the outside so that this phenomenon takes place...As usual your snide remarks have no substance of fact. ------------------ | |||
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| <Norbert> |
Alf, I did not say that Mauser actions can not handle all normal pressures. I did not say by what means those I witnessed came apart. First was a failed production run of factory 7mm Mag, second a reload with wrong powder filling, third during "fire lapping". Ray, I don�t understand, why my observations are not substantial facts? ------------------ | ||
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| <Aaron Rust> |
I have 2 Swedes M96 in 9.3X62 one is original 100% with a factory custom tang saftey.. the other started life as a 57mm I had it reamed and drilled and tapped for a scope.... bolt altered. I has shot many loads.. 286 Noslers at 2350 with no signs of presure. I don't feel any handicap with the M96. NONE. Nor to I think they deserve the bad rep they have. | ||
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| <martin f> |
I am neither an expert in action design or metallurgy, and I did not blow up any rifles yet. But my idea is: the Mauser 98 was made as safe as possible, by design. I also think that 100 years ago brass quality was worse than today, case ruptures occured more frequently, so pressure containment and gas handling was a bigger issue than today. Actions of "modern" design are optimized either for production cost, or for ease of handling, and gas handling is less an issue. My concern for old Mauser actions would be the history of each individual actions: what pressures was it subjected to, has it been heat-treated in the wrong way, etc.? Martin | ||
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Martin, Actions that are re-cycled are only done so on the outside from a refinishing standpoint... It is a simple matter to have an action tested for hardness providing the tester knows what he is doing...better yet one can test a mauser himself by hitting the lugs and race ways with a 3 corner file...If the file bits its soft, if the file glances off it is plenty hard...the applies only on Mausers.... Norbert, ------------------ | |||
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| <Djinn> |
I am pleasently surprised at the general consensus here that the 96 is far stronger than credit is given to it. Maybe I'll just have to pick up a couple of actions to play with. I have been wanting a 96 in 7x57 for some time now. Now knowing it is a viable project with some handloads, I can now look forward to one serious deer machine. Interesting ideas on the 9.3x62 in a 96. I fully concur that throat length and such is far more imortant than any notions about a given actions strength or what it is suposed to do on aper. Like Ray I have a rifle or two that defies all logic (8x57) when it comes to load books or what some consider safe. Rifles are kind of like women to an extent. Some look good on paper, some dont...but until you have had your hands all over it....its a crapshoot at best. An interesting article in the shooting times this month. Maybe some should pick up a copy and peruse its pages and then exlain how to blow up a mauser to me. Short of a charge of C4...I dont really see it happening. The argument for high grade steels and such really doesnt hold much water for me. The Arisaka is one of the biggest POS ever made as far as quality of materials, and quality of build. But we all know its one tough SOB.
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I gotta' say at this point, I AM CONFUSED! The cause of my confusion is the conversion of whatever it is that the Europeans measure pressure in to psi. (Of course this is even accentuated by the periodic conversion to c.u.p.'s!) I found a place that converts metric to "English", who of course don't use "English" anymore, which is what we Americans use. (Are you confused yet?) The following is a list of English to metric conversions: 45,000psi = 3060 Atmospheres = 3163 kg/sqcm I assume that a "bar" and a "Mpa" equal an "atmosphere." I know the old saw about "assume," but I am just trying to get the figures straight. One of you "edicated" metrically oriented folks confirm my research (and please correct it if necessary!) Please no jokes about the "atmosphere" down at the "bar" and "m' pa." Thanks. Ku-dude | |||
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So the upshot of all this learned discussion is that it's o.k. for me to load my soon-to-be rechambered M96 with 57 gr. of RL15 to get around 2350 fps? Sarge | |||
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| <Menander> |
Hi Please dont start write hate-mail but why do most of you load to the absolute max pressure ? Why want 30-06 power from a 308 win ? You knew it was a 308 win when you got it. If you need 30-06 power then do get a 30-06 or even a bigger one like 300 WinMag! The "bigger one" can then be loaded to the best groups and still give the power you need. PS I uses .30 caliber above since the are most common. Just to get my point clear. Menander | ||
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Ray: Get off of Norbert's ass! All he said was that he saw three actions let go. Regardless of how the actions are hardened, they may bulge to some mimimal (nearly invisible) extent at higher pressures but given enough pressure they will burst. That is a fact of life regardless of who may say otherwise. Will | |||
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Will, Let me ask you this, How many Mausers have you seen that blew chunks of metal??? I can tell you now, none! Puff up and perhaps split but never sending pieces of steel flying about... Norbert stated the remark that Mausers were not made of rubber, and I replied to his remark, as that is what this board is about.. ------------------ | |||
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Ray: I knew that would get a rise out of you. You are so easy!! Will | |||
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I list the following conversions to get all of us on the same page regarding the discussion of pressure levels: 3300Atmospheres = 48,563psi = 3414kg/sq cm = 340 Mpa One can see from the above table that loads held to 3400-3500 bar (atmospheres) would be pretty anemic, and loads at 3800-3900 bar (atmospheres) would be a significant increase in performance. Why push for the last Mega-pascal? Because in the 9.3 bore, the next factory loading up the line is the 9.3x64 for which brass is very hard to find. The 9.3x62 is very, very close to achieving 375HH performance before you start experimenting. We know that the 98 Mauser and similar modern bolt guns can handle pressures in the 60,000psi range. (SAMMI for the .270 Win is 65,000psi.) Clearly the only limiting factor in the 9.3x62 is the strength of the brass. If one uses 30-06 brass, we know that it is designed to work at or near the 60,000ppsi limit. I have not noticed my Lapau or Norma 6.3x62 brass to be less strong than Winchester or RP 30-06 brass. In sum, a litle extra achieved in high intensity loads for this cartridge achieves significant performance increases, and is well worth the effort spent trying to find an appropriate bullet and powder combination that will deliver 30-06 level performance from this similar bullet. Ku-dude [This message has been edited by ku-dude (edited 09-27-2001).] | |||
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| <Norbert> |
Now we are splitting hairs. A blown up Mauser is a blown up Mauser. Pieces of steel flying apart from the receiver is indeed nearly impossible. But it is no problem to send away parts of the extractor as it happens to me. To make the bottle full, another observation when I was asked as an expert on old Mausers: Any reason for a hate mail? ------------------ | ||
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Get 'em Norbert. Ray:I have not personally seen a "blown" Mauser action but did see a 2' diameter high pressure steel steam line with a 3" thick wall after it blew from high pressure. They never found some of the pieces. Will | |||
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Norbert, I will have to agree that if one goes back in time far enough to the 1908, then I would have to bow out of the conversation, as I have no interest or experience with them..In fact the Mod. 88 Commission Mausers are supposedly inferior, and I suspect that they are, again I have no knowledge.... I was keeping in line with this thread only and all references to Mausers that I make are to the Mod 98, and to some extent the Sweedes. I would also exclude copies of the Mod 98 Mauser. Basically what I am saying is Paul Mauser purposely hardened the mauser in such a manner that they will not blow chunks..You are correct in that the extractor could fly off, but that flies off without the lethality of a chunk of metal, such as would happen with my beloved M-70 which is a virtual frag bomb when blown.... Will, ------------------ | |||
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Gentlemen, having taken part of your intense discussion, I�m considering if I should load up my old 9,3x57 a bit or change it to a 9,3x62. (9,3x64 would crave a new, fatter stock to handle the recoil, and I just love the old HVA walnut one.) But can you give some rules for the coherence of velocity and pressure by uploading? Yours, Fritz | |||
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quote: I remember reading somewhere that, in actual blow-up tests, the Remington 700 action was found to be the strongest of the bolt actions. Is that correct? My guess is that the Weatherby Mark V would turn out to be the strongest bolt action today. I know that my Hornady loading handbook (early 1970s edition) says that in a test conducted at the Hornady lab, a 7mm Weatherby magnum load fired in a Mark V 270 Weatherby rifle "did not phase it," whereas the same test done in a Mauser-action 270 Weatherby destroyed the rifle. Does anyone here have knowledge about such blow-up tests done with different bolt actions and their results? | |||
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| <Norbert> |
quote: I personally don�t know about such test. I only referred to incidents I accompanied. They always were caused by faults of the operator. Proper handling and reloading will never be result in blow ups. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
Fritz, I would stick to the 9.3x62...It is an extremely efficient round..as is the 9x57 which is the equivelent of our 358 win. ------------------ | |||
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