sei nicht so schroff! Du bist nicht ....

fritz,
du hast vielleicht recht, also m�chte ich mich bei denjenigen f�r meine r�de ausdrucksweise entschuldigen, die sich dadurch auf den schlips getreten f�hlen (m�chte jedoch anmerken, dass ich offensichtlich nicht der r�deste der r�den bin...).
jedoch im sinne einer konstruktiven kommunikation werde ich mich hink�nftig ein wenig "zusammenreissen".
du solltest aber u.u. dennoch auch deine eigene meinung bzgl. gasdruck/gasdruck�berschreitung bei 9,3x62 einbringen. und wenn es nur dazu gut ist, jemandem seine nase oder sein auge zu erhalten - weidmannsheil

Weidmannsheil!

Bitte, konnen Sie sagen was das Sicherheitsnormendruck fur das 9.3x62 ist?...

dear ku-dude,
dein deutsch ist meines erachtens weit besser als mein gestoppeltes english. der gasdruck f�r 9,3x62 liegt bei 3400 oder 3500 bar. ich m�chte mich keinesfalls als der 9,3-guru darstellen, der ich auch nicht bin. ich habe jedoch im zuge von �ber 20 jahren selbstladen und vor allem auch selbst messen ziemlich alle h�hen und tiefen der ballistischen wahrheiten und auch "schm�h�s" (= big words that do not fullfill the facts) erlebt!
es gibt jedoch auch in einem deutschsprachigen forum h�chst interessante artikel �ber die 9,3x62 und vor allem auch eine wirklich breite front von 9,3 j�gern, die durch die st�ndige jagdliche verwendung ein gewichtiges wort mitreden k�nnten!

with greetings from austria

Can you stick to a language we can all understand please?

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

Can you stick to a language we can all understand please?

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Saeed,

I do so. I just went a bit went a emotional about "Escard�s" first posting, which I found to "german" in it�s expressions. My own english knowledge is too poor for my emotions then.

And now to Escard, who in german asks me about what I know about gas pressure in 9,3x62. Not enough, is my simple answer.

It depends on the actual rifle and its action. Nactory loads or recommendations from powder or bullet makers are made to be used in all actions and old worn-out rusty old rifles. E.g. Swedish ammo factory Norma has for just 9,3x62 to consider that there are a lot of old Husqvarna M96 (the old swedish army mauser action)in that caliber still in use in the field. They can�t load that hard or recommend such loads.

If then some experienced hunters, who know what they do, load harder, may that be quite OK in their OWN rifles - but you should perhaps not try that without loading up stepwise from standard in your own. I think most of us here are quite aware of this.

I myself will try to load up my own old M98 9,3x57 to see what I gain. But I will do it carefully and with an open eye for all signs of high pressures.

Best regards,

Fritz K.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Certainly. I got carried away by all of the new visitors to the forum. We are just trying to establish what the normal operating pressure for the 9.3x62 is. Clearly, Ray and I exceed it. I wondered why, but Fritz' revelation that there are some M96 Mausers out there answers the question. Otherwise, most of the other rifles are capable of handling 30-06 pressures (55,000psi).

My apologees to you and the others who don't speak German. Ku-dude

Fritz Kraut was dead on with his analysis. It is the danger of older, weaker rifles with this chambering that keeps factory ballistics where they are.

Safe Hunting

there are some information about those M96 here:
http://hem.bredband.net/b102212/m46.html
The M38 is a carbine version of the M96 swedish mauser. Most of this rifles were built in the weaker 9,3x57, but some in 9,3x62 were also built.

Fritz K.

I would give my a$$ and half of Georgia for that little peep sight to stick on my 10.75x68...

I only recently sold my 9,3x62 Husq. m-146 and it was as accurate as any rifle could be..I still have a 9.3x62 JP Saur full octogan Mauser...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

9.3x62 3400 bar 56550 psi
9.3x64 3800 bar 63800 psi
.375 H&H 3800 bar 63800 psi
.30-06 3500 bar 58725 psi

Martin

quote:

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Originally posted by ALF:
Gentlemen:

There is a notion going around boards regarding the apparent lack of strength of Mauser and Swede actions.

.

---

Yes, so it is. And here in Sweden we have - IMHO - alway been a bit carefull with our dear M96. The common opinion here is that the M96 is less strong than the M98. There are some known accidents with M96 rifles which couldn�t handle the pressure of modern (!) cartridges as the .30-06. And recently there was an accident with a M96 6,5x55 at a shooting range, where the entire bolt blew into the face of the shooter, making him severly wounded. If the lugs gave up for the pressure, or it was a after-burner firing as the shooter opened the bolt isn�t quite cleared.

However, swedish gunsmiths usually don�t recommend M96 for custom jobs in other calibers than 6,5x55, 9,3x57 and perhaps 8x57IS. They prefer the M98 or the reinforced FN M98 sporter action for standard and magnum calibers.

And nobody here would ever think about customizing an original german Mauser sporter - they are to rare and nice for that.

Fritz K.

In my mind the Weeds will handle 50,000 psi without problems, but that's just my opinion..based on my test..Other than that I have not built any rifles on the action as they wouldn't sell as well as the 98.....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

an interesting test, and indeed good news, as these army rifles still are very cheap here: you get one fairly brand new from the beginning of the last century for about 400 crowns, i.e. $40.

I�m just wondering about the rumors of the weakness of M96 here in Sweden, but on the other side I don�t think anyone here has made such a test.

Best regards,

Fritz

[This message has been edited by Fritz Kraut (edited 09-18-2001).]

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Victory through superior firepower!

Now, common since will tell you that all military rounds have been under loaded for all actions by all Governments since the adoption of smokeless powder, simply because it is cheaper to produce, better suited for military objectives, and will function in all climates and many other sound to ridicules reasons....

I believe this is the case with the M-96 and to some degree the M-95 Mauser...Many of the Mausers were blown up not from weak actions but from firing the wrong ammo in them.

During late war time production many were purposely sabotaged by factory workers to assist the war effort, and unfortunately some of these were bound to get into civilian hands sooner or later.....

I have never seen a Mauser blow up, I have seen them swell up until they would not function as that is one of the merits of a Mauser...Jack Belk has investigated many so called Mauser blowups and tells me you cannot blow a Mauser up as it will swell up like a balloon where other bolt actions will fly apart like a hand granide...That has also been my experience...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

quote:

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Jack Belk has investigated many so called Mauser blowups and tells me you cannot blow a Mauser up as it will swell up like a balloon where other bolt actions will fly apart like a hand granide...

---

A Mauser is not made from rubber and cann�t swell. If it blows up, it will fly apart as any other action made from steel. I personally saw three actions flying apart, onetime the extractor just a few inches in front of my head. Happy to be still alive. The lugs are not sheared off, but the receiver ring breaks and is widened, the bolt coming out sideways and the extractor flying away. The old Mausers are weaker than modern actions of same design and dimensions, 100 years of progress in metallurgy are not neglected.

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Yours,

Fritz K.

I have seen a number of Puffed up mausers and I have never seen one come apart....Mausers, by design, are hardened on the inside and soft on the outside so that this phenomenon takes place...As usual your snide remarks have no substance of fact.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I did not say that Mauser actions can not handle all normal pressures. I did not say by what means those I witnessed came apart. First was a failed production run of factory 7mm Mag, second a reload with wrong powder filling, third during "fire lapping".

Ray,

I don�t understand, why my observations are not substantial facts?

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Actions of "modern" design are optimized either for production cost, or for ease of handling, and gas handling is less an issue.
So while the used material may be better (if steel is used, I have doubts about aluminum and plastics), the design of the action may actually be worse.
Unfortunately a new, true Mauser design action will be expensive (possible exceptions the CZ 550, or others?).

My concern for old Mauser actions would be the history of each individual actions: what pressures was it subjected to, has it been heat-treated in the wrong way, etc.?
This is probably no concern if the action comes from a military rifle in good condition, but what about "recycled" actions with unknown history?

Martin

It is a simple matter to have an action tested for hardness providing the tester knows what he is doing...better yet one can test a mauser himself by hitting the lugs and race ways with a 3 corner file...If the file bits its soft, if the file glances off it is plenty hard...the applies only on Mausers....

Norbert,
Mausers by design were coated in clayox and then heat treated....The result of this is an action that is hardened only in thoes areas where pressure is received such as the lugs, lug recesses and rails....the outside is a very soft expandable metal...The purpose being that Mauser didn't want the rifles exploding and injuring people on both sides of the shooter or the shooter by sharpnel....So when I tell you a M-98 Mauser of proper make will not come apart that is exactly what I mean...At most they will crack and if you have seen otherwise then there is more to the picture than met your eye....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Interesting ideas on the 9.3x62 in a 96. I fully concur that throat length and such is far more imortant than any notions about a given actions strength or what it is suposed to do on aper. Like Ray I have a rifle or two that defies all logic (8x57) when it comes to load books or what some consider safe. Rifles are kind of like women to an extent. Some look good on paper, some dont...but until you have had your hands all over it....its a crapshoot at best.

An interesting article in the shooting times this month. Maybe some should pick up a copy and peruse its pages and then exlain how to blow up a mauser to me. Short of a charge of C4...I dont really see it happening. The argument for high grade steels and such really doesnt hold much water for me. The Arisaka is one of the biggest POS ever made as far as quality of materials, and quality of build. But we all know its one tough SOB.

Djinn

The cause of my confusion is the conversion of whatever it is that the Europeans measure pressure in to psi. (Of course this is even accentuated by the periodic conversion to c.u.p.'s!)

I found a place that converts metric to "English", who of course don't use "English" anymore, which is what we Americans use. (Are you confused yet?)

The following is a list of English to metric conversions:

45,000psi = 3060 Atmospheres = 3163 kg/sqcm
50,000psi = 3400 Atmospheres = 3515 kg/sqcm
51,400psi = 3500 Atmospheres = 3616 kg/sqcm
56,000psi = 3800 Atmospheres = 3937 kg/sqcm
60,000psi = 4000 Atmospheres = 4218 kg/sqcm

I assume that a "bar" and a "Mpa" equal an "atmosphere." I know the old saw about "assume," but I am just trying to get the figures straight. One of you "edicated" metrically oriented folks confirm my research (and please correct it if necessary!) Please no jokes about the "atmosphere" down at the "bar" and "m' pa." Thanks. Ku-dude

Please dont start write hate-mail but why do most of you load to the absolute max pressure ? Why want 30-06 power from a 308 win ? You knew it was a 308 win when you got it. If you need 30-06 power then do get a 30-06 or even a bigger one like 300 WinMag! The "bigger one" can then be loaded to the best groups and still give the power you need.

PS I uses .30 caliber above since the are most common. Just to get my point clear.

Menander

Get off of Norbert's ass! All he said was that he saw three actions let go. Regardless of how the actions are hardened, they may bulge to some mimimal (nearly invisible) extent at higher pressures but given enough pressure they will burst. That is a fact of life regardless of who may say otherwise.

Will

Norbert stated the remark that Mausers were not made of rubber, and I replied to his remark, as that is what this board is about..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I knew that would get a rise out of you. You are so easy!!

Will

3300Atmospheres = 48,563psi = 3414kg/sq cm = 340 Mpa
3400Atmospheres = 50,000psi = 3515kg/sq cm = 351 Mpa
3500Atmospheres = 51,400psi = 3616kg/sq cm = 361 Mpa
3600Atmospheres = 52,941psi = 3721kg/sq cm = 372 Mpa
3700Atmospheres = 54,417psi = 3825kg/sq cm = 383 Mpa
3800Atmospheres = 56,000psi = 3937kg/sq cm = 393 Mpa
3900Atmospheres = 57,473psi = 4040kg/sq cm = 404 Mpa
4000Atmospheres = 60,000psi = 4218kg/sq cm = 422 Mpa

One can see from the above table that loads held to 3400-3500 bar (atmospheres) would be pretty anemic, and loads at 3800-3900 bar (atmospheres) would be a significant increase in performance.

Why push for the last Mega-pascal? Because in the 9.3 bore, the next factory loading up the line is the 9.3x64 for which brass is very hard to find. The 9.3x62 is very, very close to achieving 375HH performance before you start experimenting.

We know that the 98 Mauser and similar modern bolt guns can handle pressures in the 60,000psi range. (SAMMI for the .270 Win is 65,000psi.) Clearly the only limiting factor in the 9.3x62 is the strength of the brass. If one uses 30-06 brass, we know that it is designed to work at or near the 60,000ppsi limit. I have not noticed my Lapau or Norma 6.3x62 brass to be less strong than Winchester or RP 30-06 brass.

In sum, a litle extra achieved in high intensity loads for this cartridge achieves significant performance increases, and is well worth the effort spent trying to find an appropriate bullet and powder combination that will deliver 30-06 level performance from this similar bullet. Ku-dude

[This message has been edited by ku-dude (edited 09-27-2001).]

A blown up Mauser is a blown up Mauser. Pieces of steel flying apart from the receiver is indeed nearly impossible. But it is no problem to send away parts of the extractor as it happens to me.

To make the bottle full, another observation when I was asked as an expert on old Mausers:
100 years ago the handling of metallurgical problems was not as perfect as today. So the properties of the actions with respect to stress, fatigue, surface hardness etc. were not the same from piece to piece.
Some 1908/09 actions used preferredly for big bores show after heavy use a set back of the lugs / conterlugs from the momentum of recoil (not high pressure!). Some gunsmiths try to avoid this by additional surface hardening. Then the surface becomes too brittle and this flaw results in cracks, especially starting at the recoil lug.
I inspected carefully my actions for a .500 Jeff and did not harden it.

Any reason for a hate mail?

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Ray:I have not personally seen a "blown" Mauser action but did see a 2' diameter high pressure steel steam line with a 3" thick wall after it blew from high pressure. They never found some of the pieces.

Will

I was keeping in line with this thread only and all references to Mausers that I make are to the Mod 98, and to some extent the Sweedes. I would also exclude copies of the Mod 98 Mauser.

Basically what I am saying is Paul Mauser purposely hardened the mauser in such a manner that they will not blow chunks..You are correct in that the extractor could fly off, but that flies off without the lethality of a chunk of metal, such as would happen with my beloved M-70 which is a virtual frag bomb when blown....

Will,
sorry, I have no experience with high pressure pipeline, and don't think one can apply pipeline pressure to rifle pressure inasmuch as metallurgy would be considerably different...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

having taken part of your intense discussion, I�m considering if I should load up my old 9,3x57 a bit or change it to a 9,3x62. (9,3x64 would crave a new, fatter stock to handle the recoil, and I just love the old HVA walnut one.)

But can you give some rules for the coherence of velocity and pressure by uploading?

Yours,

Fritz

quote:

---

Originally posted by ALF:
Post war tests done on the Mauser action shows it's superior capability of handeling excessive pressure, up to twice that of comparible military weapons or sporting weapons manufactured in the USA.[/B]

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My guess is that the Weatherby Mark V would turn out to be the strongest bolt action today. I know that my Hornady loading handbook (early 1970s edition) says that in a test conducted at the Hornady lab, a 7mm Weatherby magnum load fired in a Mark V 270 Weatherby rifle "did not phase it," whereas the same test done in a Mauser-action 270 Weatherby destroyed the rifle. Does anyone here have knowledge about such blow-up tests done with different bolt actions and their results?

quote:

---

Does anyone here have knowledge about such blow-up tests done with different bolt actions and their results?

---

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com