Isn't PHASA providing the "pre-clearance" service now as well?

How do they handle the airport-SAPS interaction?

Is there a "Will Call" window? Do you just walk up to the head of the line yourself? Or do you just wait in line with everyone else that has not done this in advance?

Les

I've got a question. What is the difference between paying someone to help you import a firearm and paying a broker to help you import trophies (or anything else for that matter)? I really don't see an ethical difference.

If the service is offered and it's legal and I'm willing to pay for this service, what's the big deal? If you don't want the to pay for the service, then by all means don't.

Do you complain about the perks and prefertial treatment that airlines give those who pay for and fly first class?

It's capitalisim, that's all. Only JTG should be in a ethical position to complain about that.

-Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steve:
It's capitalisim, that's all. Only JTG should be in a ethical position to complain about that.

People can obviously buy what they want to buy in terms of "services". It pisses me off, however, when these same people accuse ME of contributing to corruption in an airport by paying bribes. Whether one pays a bribe directly to the person carrying the bag or to an intermediary between himself and the person carrying the bag is of little moral consequence. Personally, however, I prefer not to fool myself into feeling morally superior.

Best,

John

P.S. The going rate in the Cairo airport seems to be 10 pounds ($1.50) to circumvent passport control and customs. Comforting huh!

John the greek,

your comment
"Oh, for Christ's sake....does every discussion around here have to come down to "we'll just see who has the bigger dick""

This has become a classic Accurate Reloading style. One of the reasons so many people have bailed out. The level of "one ups-manship" on this site is unmatched on the internet. If not for the absolute best information available nobody would visit here.

The tough part is wading through all the testosterone and unrelated crap here to get the benifit of that good information!

As far as the insanity of this thread the fee charged for this by a company like Air 2000 is not a bribe and cannot be confused with such. You are paying them to assist you with expedited permits. All the effort to make these permits right before you arrive is what you are paying for. It's a service plain and simple. From what I know of this it will likely be the future RSA goes to eventually. The father of one of my best friends there and a PH I have used is now one of the police incharge of this office.

Yes it's infact free to do all the permits by yourself. If you choose to do it yourself then you should. If you choose to pay the 100 or so bucks then pay it. It's a simple business plan made by some folks at Air 2000 to add income to their business. 100% legal and fine with me. Since when do people outside that country get to decide what they should do inside that country? Who do you guys think you are NATO?

It's a free market decision, let it go.......I for one am grateful for the choice to pay or not to pay. It's your choice make it wisely or wait in line!

Now lets look at this from the great country of ours the USA. What is involved for a South African coming here to hunt to bring in his guns. What if he is hunting Canada and connecting with an over night in the USA? You want to talk about a nightmare of international firearms rules and regulations lets look right here first where we are sitting!

J J

Your last post is the best thing said so far on this thread.

I "Choose" to use Air-2000 every year.

Gentlemen & Ladies //

It is really quite simple, I dont know why the blood pressure pills arnt working that well (-:

In reality this world is full of people offering free advice generally based upon their own local knowledge and experiences, so regarless of whether it is Africa or Siberia when advice is offered and someone chooses to ignore it then so be it, we all rise and fall on our own decisions. The reality of life is some people are DIY Xperts and some are pay the fee experts. At the end of the day you can choose to ignore advice and go it alone, no worries and no come backs as that is how the world works

Cheers Peter

quote:

Originally posted by JJHACK:

This has become a classic Accurate Reloading style. One of the reasons so many people have bailed out. The level of "one ups-manship" on this site is unmatched on the internet!

Not to sidetrack this thread but you are So correct! Almost EVERY ISSUE comes down to "how many heads do you have on your wall? Well, I have more so you must not know what the hell you are talking about"! Saeed must just look at some of this garbage and laugh himself nearly to death.

JMHO,

John

Why couldn't you chose to hire an off duty policeman in Jo'burg to aid you thru the mess of gun imports? Does the law tell an off duty cop there he can't work a part time job?

Does anyone know how much optima and riflepermits.com charge for the same thing? It kinda rubs me the wrong way when an outfit doubles their price for a service from year to year.

I rang Anne at Air2000 to see if they could help me with a transfer. They could not but Anne gave me advice and even emailed me supporting documentation to show my travel agent so I could avoid the penalty for changing from BA to SAA. Anne knew she was not going to get any business from me, at least in the short term but still helped and saved me from being unable to bring my rifles back from Harare to Jo'berg.

Air2000 seem a real good deal to me.

mike

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Does anyone know how much optima and riflepermits.com charge for the same thing? It kinda rubs me the wrong way when an outfit doubles their price for a service from year to year.

Russ

I had a quick look at the websites and these are the charges as shown

PHASA / $90 - permit in advance fee - NO meet and greet

RIFLEPERMITS / $85 - permit in advance and it (includes meet and greet) assistance through the JIA maize

Optima & Air2000 /

I am unsure but I think BOTH charge OVER $100 !!

Not sure if BOTH include permit in advance combined with meet and greet, or if they only have a structured fee for (meet and greet) with assistance upon arrival with processing the import permit application at the time of arrival!!

Peter

Part of the service Air2000 provides, if one wants it, is a send off service. The hunter had a rep from Air2000 meet him at the airport to assist with getting his firearm out of storage and back on the plane when he returned to go back to the US. Was this necessary, I would guess not but it was nice to have that option if it was needed..............JJ

Alf hit the naill on the head on this one. So now everyone pays the "service fee" and everyone stands at the front of the line. :

If everyone has their permits done ahead of time there will be no line to worry about!

The entire process would be simply to verify the guns serial number to the permit and you're done and outta there!

PS Contrary to my previous post I probably would use one of these services prior to my hunt. Not for getting to the "front of the line" but to have more 'insurance' value my double rifle won't get lost!

NitroX

Just a short note to say bloody good to see you back in action mate

Cheers, Peter in the land where bronze is our gold medal

.

Alf I have read your posts for years and have the absolute maximum respect for you and your opinions. However on this we will just dissagree!

In your example if thirty companies offer this service they will help them as they line up in the que. The time in the que will be minimal. By the time hunter #1 is through the line in a few moments with his prearranged paperwork hunter #2 will just be unlocking his gun case, and hunter three will be getting his gun case and hunter four will be collecting his bags and so forth. The time span from your gun case getting opened to relocking and walking away is a few moments rather then many hours.

The problem is not,.... I repeat IS NOT the policy of the government of RSA or the staff operating this process. It's 100% the lack of preparedness of those people in line that have no clue what they needed before they arrived and cannot locate the information to fill out the permits in the office. Few know the outfitters landline phone number(cell number not accepted), few have an actual address, few have an invitation letter, few can find their keys, many get in the front of the line while their partner is looking for the luggage which then holds up the whole line for those who do have everything they need in hand.

The visiing hunters are so poorly educated on what's needed that the outfitters themselves should be to blame for the total lack of preperation for their clients. I have spoken to many Outfitters who have never been out of RSA, they have never been through the customs process, I had to actually argue with several that an invitation letter was needed for the hunters to come into the country with a gun. I had to argue that a mobile phone number was nat accepted, only a land line. They don't know the most basic needs of their hunters to enter the country with a gun so how can they be of any help?

There is such poor education for the vast majority of arriving hunters as to what is needed and what each one should bring that the lines are backed up for this reason alone. It's not the sole responsibility of the SAPS to have these people know what they need.

Many outfitters have no clue what a visiting hunter needs, they just complain about the process, the same can be said for the average booking agent as well. They do little to nothing to assit the hunters with the needed information to get through the process.

I guess in a perfect world those free services would take just a moment and everyone would be happy. Unfortuantley you know as well as I do this is not a perfect world and we need to fix it. The fix is done with money. Don't mistake my opinion for being happy about this. I have over 20 hunters at over 100 bucks each for this service with no increase in my package price from 2005. Yeah I'm making over 2 grand USD less this year just on the permit costs, but I have no choice. I cannot expect my hunters to stand in line after 20 plus hours of travel because so many outfitters and booking agents have done such a poor job preparing their hunters to get though the permit process.

Sorry Alf, I have lots of respect for you boet, but I see this much differentley

.

Alf,

Surely the difference is that Optima (or whoever) have already had the import licence (pre) issued and all that is required is a number check. Even if you have all your application forms & paperwork in order, the import licence still has to be issued by the SAPS.......

If however, you already have your import licence pre issued as well then you would get the same treatment as the assisted passengers... except of course, you'd have to queue up for the passport control whereas the assisted passsengers wouldn't.

I'm personally all for the assisted option. As JJ says, you wouldn't believe the amount of hunters that pitch up there either without any paperwork or incorrectly filled out paperwork etc. - Who do you blame for that? - I guess the individual outfitter for not taking enough care of their customer service.......

One must also remember it's not compulsory to use an assisting company, it's a choice..... and whenever has having a choice been a bad thing......

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
JJ:

OK so I arrive at JHB and have all my paperwork in order, right down to the regulation black ink requirement !

Why should the agents from Optima with their clients be helped before me ?

They shouldn't, but that's an issue for SAPS to deal with.

Next time you go through customs in Canada or the U.S., offer the customs agent an extra $20 to let you skip the line. Give us a full report on what happens.

I've used Air 2000 several times and more than once they saved me from a real hassle. On our way home one year, we were delayed in Gaberone after clearing customs. Our Air 2000 charter arrived at JNB about 20 minutes prior to our scheduled SAA departure. Our little charter pulled up at the gate next to the 747, an Air 2000 rep met us on the tarmac with an RSA customs agent and an SAA ticket agent. The customs agent stamped our passports and gun permits. The ticket agent took our tickets and we walked up the service ramp to board our flight home.

I'm sure several people got paid on that one, but I didn't handle the cash and I don't really care what transpired. All that mattered was that we were on our flight home, feeling like the bourgeoisie John the Greek holds in such high esteem.

I think I'm beginning to understand.
Here I am, Old Joe Dumshit fatass rich American from Alaska, who has the time to get all his paperwork approved ahead of time, standing in line with all the other great unwashed.
Along comes another Joe Dumshit fatass rich American from Texas who hired an Assist Company to get his papers preapproved. He is actually the last person off the plane so normally would be at the back of the line, but, he paid $100/130USD for his preapproved papers so he is ushered to the front of the line.
I can think of only two reasons the SAPS Officer would allow that.
1. The Assist Company representative is a friend of his.
2. Money changed hands under the table.
If you pay an Assist Company to make sure your expensive double rifle makes the next flight, no problem. But...
If you pay the Assist Company so you won't have to stand in line with the other great unwashed, I have a problem with that. You may trip over my cane, on your way to the front of the line.
Do I detect a slight elitist attitude here?

Isn't this really just like getting on the airplane first because you paid [extra] for First Class, or having the bellhop at the hotel carry your bags to your room for you for a tip? You pay extra for extra service.

If you have the foresight to get all your rifle import paperwork approved and the permit issued prior to your arrival WHY should you be required to wait in the line with those that did not?

I'm happy to see that JJHACK is REQUIRING the use of a service and INCLUDING the cost of it in the hunt price. ALL oufitters should do this! [JJ, raise your price to cover this, your clients will thank you after seeing what they passed up on the way to the truck!]

I will not even consider hunting in RSA without using one of these services after reading here of all the advantages; going to the head of the line, baggage and connection assistance,and speeding through passport control. [that alone is worth the fee!]

I will look out for your cane or foot, however, as I go to the head of the line.

Les

.

It seems that some are confusing filling out your import paperwork with pre-applying for your import permit.

Having your paperwork pre approved means, it just requires a signature and verifying your serial numbers. Not having your paperwork pre approved, means standing in line with your form filled out, once you get into the office, 1/2 the time you are not asked for it and they enter all your information in a ledger by hand.

Why should someone that took the time to fill out their paperwork before time and send it off to get pre approved spend the time in line when what they require takes 2 minutes vs 15 minutes plus?

As JJ has stated, if everyone showed up with preapproved paperwork, each person would take about 2 minutes to get through and no one would go to the front of the line.

I have been to Africa in 2004 and 2005. I have flown into Johanessburg, Bulawayo, Victoria Falls, and Dar Es Salaam. I learned the following:

1. This is Africa. They do things their way, and nothing we can do will change it.

2. Anyone who doesn't use a meet and greet service is possibly subjecting themselves to much unecessary bullshit at the airport in Johanessburg.

3. When all else fails, money talks and a twenty dollar bill works miracles.

4. Anywhere in Africa you go there will be an attempt to scam you in one way or another.

5. Prior to my first trip, I read so many of the "horror stories" on AR that I considered not going at all. When I got there, I found that it isn't so bad if you take the time to prepare.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

TJ and Alf. In your situation you discribe which do you have in hand

A....Preapproved, signed and inspected paperwork.......or

B.....Forms in hand correctly filled out WAITING TO BE EXAMINED AND APPROVED by the onduty SAPS officer.

We are talking about "A". With A completed its a 2 minute process.
With "B" completed its a least 15, more like 30 minute process, while a local SAPS officer himself decides on whether your app is filled out correctly and if he personally feels like applying the law in a fair manner or not. Thats what takes the time.


In "A", an official in Pretoria examins your paperwork and insures you get a fair shake. The only way you can be as prepared as the " A " group is to enter the country prior to bringing in a firearm and going to Pretoria yourself'

Does this make it any more clear ????...........JJ

The crux of the matter is read the directions. Just because the ph or outfitter dosnt know their own regs is no reason you shouldnt. I agree with you guys that so many people show up and dont have a clue. I cant tell you the number I have helped both on the plane and in line to fill out their paperwork. They should have had it all done in advance and understood the drill. If you have a tight connection or charter you probably want to use the service. Then again if you planned well it probably isnt necesarry but call it cheap insurance. Now for the guys just going to RSA and nowhere else is it really worth it? OR is it as ALf has said and I agree with him a problem in itself? Last, as 1115 stated take the time to prepare and everything will be fine. The real problem I see is the number of people who are blissfully ignorant and bullox it up for the rest of us.

Alf, if you do indeed live and pay taxes in SA then why in the world do you expect it to run any other way that like it does ?

I truely feel SAPS wants us out of their hair ASAP. If they have someone they can get rid of in 2 minutes, they want to, just to whittle the size of the line down. Thats human nature.

I don't mind standing in line. I admit I deserve no more special treatment than does anyone else.

BUT, do not get in front of me with improper paperwork and try to argue your way thru. Thats being rude to me and all behind us. If you don't have your paperwork done properly you should go to the rear of the line for 2 reasons.

1...to be polite to those who took the time to do theirs properly
2....a a punishment for not doing what you should have.

We carry guns for christs sake, the power of life and death, and we can't even get a few pages of lines and boxes filled out and checked properly.........................JJ

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
LHOWELL + other persons who sell a hunting service on this site:

You are missing the point!

This is not first class, this is not coach class, this is not a service you should be paying for. THIS IS A FEDERAL MANDATED PROCCESS!

Do you, would you be happy if you go to your local federal office ( US post office) to apply for a passport and the same thing happens? Would you be happy if you needed to do this when submitting your federal income taxes?

We can then also say those who use the service could have their passports scrutinised before those who do not use the service.

So what they should do is to make two line ups.

Those who uses Optima or whoever gets fast tracked and those who do not, LINE UP AND GET SHAFTED !

As I have said what happens when there are now 30 Optima and the like agents. The SAPS still just ahve 5 guys working , what now?

I do not mind paying for private, "it's my choice" services, but when it comes to stuff where I pay tax for a Federally Run, Federally mandated service and now have to pay extra to a PRIVATE COMPANY to get that service expedited, I will not budge on my position ! I am a tax paying citizen and therefore the situation is unaccepetable.

Alf, I agree with you 100%. If this were going on in the US, I'd be having a fit about it.

From my and many other hunters' perspective, we just paid tens of thousands of dollars for a hunt (maybe the hunt of a lifetime) and for a few bucks more we can avoid one of the worst logistical hassles on the entire journey - SAPS at JNB. I'm just trying to get my guns and get on my way. I'm not going to attempt a "political statement" that will put my entire safari at risk just to save a few bucks.

If RSA wants to clean up the mess, they can do it. But it seems no one has a vested interest in doing so. It's the equivilent of a shakedown, and that pisses me off but its not a reason for me to stay at home.

Alf

As much as I enjoy and respect your encyclopedic knowledge of firearms, hunting and Africa, I must disagree with you on this, as several others have.

We are not missing the point, we hear your point loud and clear. And we respect your choice to "go it alone" in this permitting process.

However, we are making another choice -to have someone else [someone who knows the correct proceedures, speaks the language, and is comfortable getting around the facilities] do the waiting in line for us.

It's not a requirement, it's a choice [unless your outfitter requires it ] that makes a somewhat intimidating process more agreeable. As long as the choice is available I'll use it and recommend that everyone else do so as well.

Les

P.S. US passports are "expedited" by such services all day everyday. And I pay someone to prepare and file my Income Tax too!

Also, I'm not selling anything on this forum.

It's still amazing to me that there are still such strong views both for and aganist this. How can a group of guys like us all be so much on the same side of so many issues and yet have such different opinions on this topic?

I for one don't see how this can be confusing to anyone if you take the emotion and your past thoughts out of the way and just see it for what it is. It cannot be considered a bribe or a "shakedown" at any level no matter how much you stretch this to fit your way of thinking.

It's plain and simple paying a service fee to a private agency to do something for you. It's done when you arrive removing the hassles and the waiting from your trip. It also assures that when you arrive all is right and you pretty much have a guarantee of passing through the system with no effort, having a spokesperson there to help you with any problem that might arrise. I see this similiar to hiring an lawyer. You can defned yourself in court, fill out your own documents for the sale of a house, or your own living will etc. The governemnet will accept this and see it as a legal document or transaction. .........Or you can hire a lawyer to do this and be certain it's correct and assit you should a problem arrise.

Remember the line "anyone who chooses to defend themself in court has a fool for a lawyer".

I kinda see this service fee along those same lines. Should a problem come up when you arrive. Do you really think as a foreign person entering this country that your opinion means anything to SAPS in regards to you bringing in a firearm and ammunition?

It's been taken out of context to say that you pay to get to the front of the line by paying the fee. That is not the case. You don't have a line if you do the work ahead of time, you're exempt from the waiting process because you took the time to do the needed paperwork well in advance of your arrival. There is no line for people with pre issued permits. Because the permits are already issued and DONE!

If you prefer the permit be issued fresh from the desk of the SAPS office when you arrive that is your choice, but requires a wait, and to be in a line with people who have absolutely no idea what they needed before they arrived.

In this case, everyone in that line is equal. Regardless if you have 100% perfect information filled out in black ink and flawless presentaion with ammo and luggage keys at the ready. If the 30 people in front of you are missing things and unorganized you don't get to be ahead of them because you did it correctly. You must wait until every single person in that line ahead of you regardless of the problems they may have is sorted out before it's your turn.

How is that at all fair in the big scheme of things? People who have taken the responsibility to do everything correctly, with an outfitter that made sure of it should be stuck in a line filled with dozens of people who have no prior preperation, no idea whats needed and cannot even locate the keys for their suitcase to show the ammo they brought along.

This remeinds me of line from a movie, you want the truth you can't handle the truth.

The truth about the service fee is that it's come about not as a means to circumvent the process or move people to the front of the line, it eliminates the line for people with enough good common sense to avoid that on site process all together.

There is no line for pre-issued permits. So take your pick. Get them before you leave and there is no line. Get them fresh from the saps desk wait til it's your turn.

I can't believe how many people have their panties in a knot over this "issue".It's an optional service not a requierment. If you don't want to spend the money , don't.
As to why should those who do go to the head of the line? Simple, two reasons. First, they don't need the paperwork checked, they only need to demonstrate that the serial numbers on their guns match those on the paperwork/permits. And second, the authorities can be certain that the paperwork is done , and done correctly, so they can be processed faster. If I have a line of twenty people and I know that I can get five done in a few minutes I'm going to get those five done and out of my hair. This isn't unusual. When was the last time that you used the "10 items or less" line at the supermarket. Saps is basically doing the same thing; moving those who need minimal processing ahead of those who probably need more time.
Before you scream "but I don't need more time, I've got things done right", consider; how do they know that? They know that those using the service have everything done properly, you , on the other hand, look like every other jet lagged hunter with screwed up paperwork.

JJHACK & TerryR

Very WELL SAID gentlemen ... you have covered it from A-Z ..

The strange thing is, despite all you chaps have said, and with the facts at our finger tips there will still be the (grumpy intransigent few) whom will still try to pick holes in your overview explanation when all they have to do is (listen to good advice) and pay a measly $100 bucks or so for peace of mind.

SO I guess then there are still some true principled moralists in this world whom will say why the hell should I pay !!! .. well dont pay, no one is dragging you kicking and screaming to pay, just ignore the advice, DIY and take the punishment

I think it might then comes down to money, well if $100 is a principled problem, then I truly believe you should rather OIL your beautiful $1000+ rifle and stay home in the comfort of your leather rockin chair and watch TV showing the starving multitudes in Africa and stick to your principles, at least you will be happy while others are enjoying their hunt in Africa and flying through JIA (-:

Cheers Peter

JJ,

You're dead on with this issue. Perhaps a comparison to have someone here in the U.S do all the dirty work to apply for various big-game tags in several states would make some folks understand what you're trying to get across. You pay the money and someone else does the paperwork -- properly.

When I went to NZ for a hunt in 2004, I emailed all of the required paperwork to the police office in the Auckland airport. When I got there, everything was ready, and all I had to do was have the serial #s checked, pay the fee and sign the permit.

>>you want the truth you can't handle the truth.<<

Jack Nicholson -- A Few Good Men! -TONY

Bribes, place in line, morality??? Who gives a fork? The Purpose I see here is no worry that you have the right forms or that they're filled out properly (you've already taken care of that!) No worry that your guns will be allowed - in or out. No worry that you'll get delayed or even lost in the airport. NO WORRY!!!! What does all this peice of mind cost? A MEASELY C-NOTE on a trip where I'm spending thousands. A trip that is based on those same guns. Sorry fellas, you do what you want but this is a no brainer for me!

I think a major point is being missed.
The point is, I take the trouble to get my paperwork PREAPPROVED, you pay someone to do it for you. That's fine, no problem.
The problem is, you bust the line while I wait.
I wonder what SAPS would say if I busted the line and said, "Oh it's ok, I have my preapproved papers." I imagine I would be told to get back in line, wait your turn.
The solution is simple. Two signs over the SAPS office. PREAPPROVED PAPERS FORM HERE, and NON PREAPPROVED PAPERS FORM HERE."
The SAPS officers could then take care of the preapproved first and then the rest of the masses.
I think it is rude, inconsiderate and egotistical to bust the line, no matter how much or who you pay.

See the post by ROBO concerning this. Interesting.

TJ you're still not clicking with the issue at hand. Nobody is "busting" the line as you say.

The people who have done this ahead of time already have their permits, they don't need to be in the permit line. There is no line for permit holders.

The line is for those people who do not have permits. The line is for all the masses who have filled out the "application" and wish to have it approved by the SAPS office.

Those who have filled this out ahead of time and used a service have already been approved and have the permits issued. They are only there to pick them up, not apply, or await approval.