I just got back from a plainsgame hunt in SA. The hunt was to be for handguns/leverguns only with some friends.

On the day we arrived the procedure was for a porter employed by SAPS to move our gun cases from baggage claim to SAPS for inspection. The porter went halfway across the terminal and stopped. I asked him what was wrong and he kinda looked away. Willie from Air2000 told the porter in no uncertin terms to get a move on. Willie told me the new thing was to hold up and demand a tip to get the cases on to SAPS.

Then in the SAPS office the officer saw my Ruger Blackhawk. It is a Bowen conversion to 480 Ruger, 5 inch oct. barrel, not a pocket gun by any means. He immeadiately said it cannot come in because it had no scope !!! No way no how. Willie in a very firm way told him my permits were already filed and approved by the Capt. in Pretoria and he could not override those. The SAPS officer still said no. Willie went and found a supervisor and got it sorted out in 5 minutes and I was on my way.

I don't know about you guys but this time Anne at Air2000 saved my ass. It was 130.00 well spent to me.

BTW another member of my party failed to get his revolver in for the same reason but he arrived the day before and he did not use Air2000.

One never knows what will happen in Africa.............JJ

JJ,

Thanks for the heads up! I'll definatley be using them in the future.

Greg

I don't know the folks at Air2000, we used Optima. I've heard the arguments from some here that escort services are a waste of money, and they're entitled to their opinion. I, on the other hand, think that not using one is right up there with using cheap bullets on safari as a stupid way to try and save money on a very expensive hunt.

If it is your first trip then it may be worth the money. My understanding is that the new SAPS office is in the lobby area of the airport now. If that is the case your PH should be able to help you with the process. In the past they did not have access to you until you were done with the Permit process.

Guys

We work with Garry Kelly in RSA and he highly recommends all clients use Air 2000. If you have spent $1000's on a safari why quibble over a few bucks to make sure your transit through JIA is hassle free. I used them in '04 with excellent results, will use them again this year, plan on using them in '07 and I recommend them to everyone.

Mark

Roscoe, although by no means was this my first trip, it was the first trip where somthing went wrong in the airport.

The hunter who was denied firearm importation had his paperwork in hand along with a copy of the SAPS regs which do not mention a scope, but he was still told no scope no gun. He attempted to find a supervisor but was unsuccessful. In the end he said he argued to the point where other SAPS officers came into the office and he became uncomfortable in pushing it further.

I don't know if we hit a bad shift of officers or what, but it was for sure a strange experience.......................JJ

A post like this is one of the many great things that make AR so great!!!!

All of us looking out for each other, passing inportant information to other who might walk the same path.

Thank you, gentlemen (and ladies), thank you!

The "no scope on handgun issue" needs to be resolved. I was planning a trip with my Bowen and was told the same thing....no scope, no entry. If anyone has current info it would be appreciated. Long gone are the days when I would clear customs in SA, strap on my 1911, and be off.......

That scope is a mystery, it might be worth reporting it direct to PHASA for comment, in any event this is the information off the PHASA website relating to (villians)

Also remember in this day and age of cell phones with cameras it might be worth getting a picture of any villians within the organisation whom are winding you up (-:

Peter
------------------

9. Report Corruption:

If anybody involved in the above-mentioned process asks you for money that person is trying to solicit a bribe from you. This is a criminal offence!! Every person involved in the firearms handling process is in possession of an ACSA access card with his/her name and photograph. If a person tries to bribe you, ask them for their ACSA permit and make a note of their name.

Report it immediately to the South African Police Service. If it is a South African Police Service member that asks for money, report it immediately or as soon as possible to the Client Service Centre in the multi storey parking area or any other SA Police Station. If any SA Police Service member refuses to take down your complaint or does not give you a case reference no. contact the SAPS commander at Johannesburg Internationl Airport Director B. M. Zuma at 0827789639 or Superintendent SB Mhlangu at 0835894220.

$20-$60 used to get your guns through, today its $120. What is it going to cost in five years? $250-$500 -$1000 I read online were one outfitter is "Hiring" airport policemen to to work on his clients paper work before their arrival. They show up wearing the outfitters logo on their hats and are escorted to the front of the line. I guess that's one way to cut out most of the middle men!
For the sake of the South African hunting industry I hope they someday do away with all gun expediting services.
They are only a bandage on a cancer.

The scope thing was I suspect caused by a different interpretation of the act caused by a change of personnel at the top of the chain at JIA. Insp Conroy who used to be in charge has now left and an African guy has now taken over.

A few months ago PHASA sent out a newsletter stating that no hanguns would abe allowed. I queried this and was told it had now changed to only handguns with scopes and when I queried this I was told it had changed again to any handgun with or without scopes......all within a few days. All this happened whilst most of the PHASA staff were in the US attending the conventions.........

We also recommend Air 2000 to our clients and I reckon they're worth their weight in gold. Hell, I'd pay that much just for their making sure I don't have to stand in line at immigration.......

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
It was 130.00 well spent to me.

No offense but is the scam being perpetrated here by the airport employees or by a company charging you $130 to accomplish what you could do yourself for probably far less than half that. Really, does it make sense to hire someone for $130 to light a fire under a baggage handler who would be absolutely giddy over a $5 tip? Further, regarding the revolver....would $20 have got the job done? Most definitely. What I find most interesting is that there are those who can't lower themselves to pay a bribe but are more than happy to pay another to do the dirty work for them.

JMHO,

John

I have had experience with Air2000 and think they're great, but every time this subject comes up I get a little irritated about the folks who bitch about using a service. Use it, don't use it, I don't care. It is info provided for others to factor into their planning - that is all. I sure don't want to hear any complaining from those who rag on using the services if they don't and then have problems.

It is information, not a directive. Personally, I would rather pay a service a fee (regardless of how they use it) than I would personally bribe a bunch of folks at the airport. JMO

I have not used one of these "services" but from recent information I plan to on my next trip. As the regulations (and their interpretation by all) the "law" is certianly in a constant state of flux. Simply having the assurance of someone up on the latest snags seems worth it to me. As for the arguement in favor of simply paying the bribes instead of the service company... it is YOU (applied genericly) who are perpetuating this situation.

My last trip was shortly after the institution of the "letter of invitation" requirement. I learned of it on the net two weeks before my trip and several days before my host got the word from PHASA - nuff said for the value of THIS site and others like it! Two other hunters who arrived on our flight did not have a letter. We had all necessary (at the time) paperwork in order and were through firearms registry in 30 minutes. The other two guys who had done everything the same as they had on their previous trip were still there an hour latter, I don't know if they ever did get their permits! As someone else said, its cheap insurance that you wont have problems, either with greedy, ignorant or arrogant people.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

We also recommend Air 2000 to our clients and I reckon they're worth their weight in gold. Hell, I'd pay that much just for their making sure I don't have to stand in line at immigration.......

Me too........... I hate lines.

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
Roscoe, although by no means was this my first trip, it was the first trip where somthing went wrong in the airport.

The hunter who was denied firearm importation had his paperwork in hand along with a copy of the SAPS regs which do not mention a scope, but he was still told no scope no gun. He attempted to find a supervisor but was unsuccessful. In the end he said he argued to the point where other SAPS officers came into the office and he became uncomfortable in pushing it further.

I don't know if we hit a bad shift of officers or what, but it was for sure a strange experience.......................JJ

JJ,
Was your PH able to help in the situation? My understanding is that in the new office the PH will be there to assist with the paperwork? Regarding the scope and the hand gun...I have no comment because I have never tried to enter SA with a handgun. I do think that having a PH with you will cut down on all the BS that happens in the SAPS office.

Last time we went through Ian Smuts airport we had a real nice babe meet us, escort us to our connecting flight ANDwith our luggage tags confirmed that our bags were located and put onto the connecting flight all for about 120 bucks. let's see, investing close to 20 grand on a hunting trip and quip about a measly "C" note? no brainer there. Sure you can bribe some employee to do the same, but at least you have a responsible entity to turn to if things go south. jorge

Well folks I'll tell you what.

Starting late season 2005 I included the costs of AIR 2000 in all my packaged hunts. In other words I make about 100 bucks less a hunt now because I did not raise the price.

I insist that everyone hunting with me use this service and if they choose not to, even though I'm paying for it, then I cannot accomadate them on my hunts. The only exception to this would be a hunter who is coming in to do some tourism for a few days prior to the beginning of the hunt.

It's that simple and I'm not flexable on this. Yeah it's 100 bucks but Anne knows me and my arriving hunters. Her team will make absolutely certain that my driver and my hunters are not standing around the airport for 4-6 or more hours waiting on a single person.

I will also not allow 4 arriving hunters to have pre-issued permits and one who chose not to participate arrive with them. What happens in that situation is that the four are sitting in the upstairs cafateria for 1/2 the day while one fella is still in line for who knows how long.

Say what you want about the cost, you think it's bad for you and our guns just as one single person? ..........I'm paying it now for 20 plus hunters a season!

I tip the baggage guy $2.00 and the guy in the office $5.00 ... they used to ask you to buy them a coke, but I decided just to tip before they ask ... slides me right through.

I even tipped with a bow case on the last trip ... I figure that I tip baggage handlers in the U.S., why not RSA?

JTG, Let me try to make this more clear. It does not seem to matter what you/I say, or what paperwork you/I have in hand stamped and signed by whoever. If the SAPS officer working looks at your un-scoped handgun and says "no " then what do you do ? If you read my post you see where another hunter tried to stand his ground unsuccessfully, at some point they will get tired of you and arrest you. Don't say it won't happen, the other hunter is a retired LEO and he said he could see where this was headed and he shut up.

The PH was with other clients and attempted to clear it up but was unsuccessful.

From what I could tell, what I had that the other hunter did not was the PRESIGNED AND PREAPPROVED paperwork by a higher up officer that is in charge at the airport.

So if you have the time and money to go yourself to SA 2 weeks before your hunt ( in the case of handguns 4 weeks ) and get everything signed and stamped by all means do it yourself. I cannot afford that. I pay someone else to use their time, fuel and labor to do all that running around and waiting in line at the Gov. offices.

Thats no bribe, its paying for a service.

BTW when was your last handgun hunt in SA, I missed your post.....................JJ

JTG, to answer the last part of your post. You are blinded by your socialist/lib attitude. You incorrectly assume that those of us who pay for a service are to be suspect because somehow we cannot bring or " lower " ourselves as you put it, to do something. Now belive it or not bribing or attempting to bribe an offical is a felony, even in SA. Now why would one stand and argue with SAPS to the point of them bringing in other officers and then in front of witnesses offer them 5.00 to let it slide. That is stupid.

As I said before I want to see you bribe a handgun thru SAPS after you raised hell with them.

It is people like you who have given " them " the idea they can expect bribes for doing their jobs, not me. SAPS does not see one rand of the fees I pay Air2000. Maybe after a while people like you will get the message and stop bribing everyone and people like us will not have to hire Air2000. This is your creation not Air2000's......................JJ

I have used them in the past and recommend them, especially to first time travellers to RSA.

When I used them last they not only hustled me through the firearms process they got me to the head of the line to get on an earlier flight to PE.

I think their price went up to $150 US this year.

Todd

My last trip with Garry, was the year they started using Air2000. Never had a problem the previous year, but you know, for the $70 it cost me, it is good insurance that if something goes south, it is someone elses job to handle it.

quote:

Originally posted by oupa:
As for the arguement in favor of simply paying the bribes instead of the service company... it is YOU (applied genericly) who are perpetuating this situation.

No offense, but how do you think these "services" are getting the job done behind the scenes? Honestly, third world airports scare the hell outta me from a security perspective. I have seen a $20 bill accompanied by the phrase "make this problem go away" solve WAY too many issues for my own comfort. I don't like the corruption but I don't fool myself into believing that using "a service" is making it go away.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Folks

To me the only thing that matters at JIA or any other African airport is getting in and out of the airport in the most efficient manner possible. I really could care less if the system is corrupt. I didn't come to be some sort of moral missionary. To be met on the jetway knowing your paperwork is in order, wisked through the whole process and deposited with my PH is well worth $130 to me and I would pay more if it was necessary. I go on safari to hunt not f--- around in the airport.

Mark

Well said Mark!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks

To me the only thing that matters at JIA or any other African airport is getting in and out of the airport in the most efficient manner possible. I really could care less if the system is corrupt. I didn't come to be some sort of moral missionary. To be met on the jetway knowing your paperwork is in order, wisked through the whole process and deposited with my PH is well worth $130 to me and I would pay more if it was necessary. I go on safari to hunt not f--- around in the airport.

Mark

If the fact that the system is corrupt bothers you there is only one way to avoid it....
Stay out of africa.

If there is anywhere in africa that isn't corrupt nobody has reported about it yet.

Or did I just miss that post???

AllanD

I dont know what ethical fantasy world some people live in. bottom line is;

Money Talks-Bullshit Walks

That is the way it is in this world, whether we like it or not.

The world population is basically split up into two, the KickAss or LickAss brigade. Money ensures that you have to do alot less lickin'.

People without money have to knock on doors. When people have money, doors open automatically.

People may or may not like the idea of paying "$5 bribes" to African handlers(in the U.S.they are called "tips" and unquestioned), yet they will pay much more to be OFICIALLY rushed to the front of the que(but thats not corrupt, cause its official!) Entirely their choice, based on what "convenience service" is avialable and your budget,and your willingness to pay.
Remember, governments deem something corrupt or illegal only when they cannot get a cut out of it themselves.
Having said that, it is good to have someone like Willie from Air2000 to get you through if there are problems,especially if you dont know the ropes and quirks of the system to well. Local knowledge never goes astray. He would probably know best when to push an issue and by how much. with the appropriate approach, be it firm,or more diplomatic.

Just remember,most machines need a lubricant, so does our machine society/economy, and that lube is called Money. a little squirt here and alittle squirt there, either loosens up the seized wheel or stops its annoying squeek, to help things run smoooooth....

Why anyone even wants to go to RSA to hunt anymore beats me. I feeel for the safari operators there but until thier own Gov't makes entering there for hunting purposes I won't spend a dime there except at the Jo'burg airport while awaiting my flight to Namibia.

Why have a queue if some jokers can pay $5 or $130 to get to the front of it? Why not just hold an auction for first place?

Why not just have a free-for-all and whoever can push the hardest gets in first? Worked for me in Dhaka airport once!

Why not just empty your wallet and throw money at any joker who asks for it?

You might guess I am not a silent 'fuming' bystander if someone tries to jump ahead of me in a queue. Oh shit, did my foot accidently trip you flat on your face on your way past? Sorry!

Petty bribery is just like drug pushing. There is no place for drug dealers if there are no paying adicts.

I think there is a cultural difference coming out here.


BTW what is the difference between a tip and a bribe?

When I went through joberg it cost me more than $130 to get through with my guns. I did not use AIR2000, but had to pay of the saps officers and some porters to get our guns on the plane(on the way in and out) . We made the mistake of only allowing ourselves only about an hour layover. Next time we will have more time, and use AIR2000. Thanks for sharing the info.

Nitro:
I think a tip is paid after the service is rendered and a bribe is paid before the service is rendered?
I agree with your take on "busting the line."
If some big fatassed rich American, or anyone for that matter) busted my line, I'd also trip him.
If SAP had two lines, one for "Assisted" and one for "Nonassisted", that would be a different story.
I wonder why the "Assist" companies are allowed to go to the head of the line? You don't reckon money changes hands do you?

I was on the same trip with JJ. Glad i used Air 2000 to bring in my 500 Linebaugh.

BUNK!!!!!!

The assisted guys get to jump the queue because they have paid the assisting company to get their import licences issued in advance. All the client has to do is walk in, show the cop the firearm to prove that serial number(s) on the firearm tie up with that on the permit and then walk out again.

The unassisted people will take a lot longer to process and that's why they wait longer.

Sorry, but anyone with half a brain in their head should be able to do this themselves. I dont mind the services. If you want to use them fine if you dont fine. It just shouldnt become a matter of extortion. I have gone through and not used the services ever. A couple of times Saps has hit me up for bribes, a couple of the bagagage handlers as well but I expect it from them. I have also had great help from others who didnt have their hands out. Guess who got the most out of me? I am sorry to hear inspector Conroy is no longer top cop at the airport. He was a straight up guy and didnt broke any of this crap from anyone. You could see the attitudes change and heads snap when he was around. Last trip he personally did my paperwork on the way in and we caught up on the polite conversation. I was still in and out in 10 minutes. First, I had the best cop there who knew exactly what was needed. Second, So did I. If everything is in order it should only take 10 minutes not hours. Trip before the African gent in Saps couldnt even tell the difference between a shotgun and a large bore rifle. I resent the fact that somehow we now are expected to bribe our way to the front of the line? Or is it if we dont those black empowered blokes will somehow make life miserable for us? Bullshit! That implies that we are all incompetent, and they are also incapable of doing their jobs or just plain crooked. This is not a service it is a disservice and a slap in the face to everyone involved. There is absolutey no reason the average person could not send and get paperwork approved ahead of time either. Bottom line is it is just expedient for you guys and your clients to use the service. The African side makes a little more money for said service. Just dont try to pass this off for anything other than what it is. As for 2 lines there should be that. Those with paperwork done correctly and those not.

Here's the deal. For those of that have been to J'burg 20 frickin million times and got this gun importation stuff down pat, then ignore this thread. This was my second trip. The customs process was a lot easier this time for me but the problem is it is still a foreign country with firearms laws that seem to change daily. For the amount of money I paid for the whole trip it was worth it to ME to have somebody help me get through the process after a 20 hour flight.

Nitro X, its not about cutting line. My paperwork has already, in advance, ahead of time, prior to my arrival, been reviewed, stamped and signed. It is correct and proper. The SAPS guy just looks it over, stamps a dated stamp on it, checks serial #'s and we leave.

If you do your own, its read over, checked and questioned by the SAPS officer on duty at that time. HE decides if your paperwork is correct or not. If you used the proper color ink or not. Are all the proper boxes checked or not. All the things people manage to fuck up all the time. Mine is checked in advance and reviewed by someone who actually knows the regs and abides by them, not interpet them as they feel like on that day. So why should I have to wait behind some idiot who cannot follow simple directions, thats not my fault he is a dumbass.

What you don't seem to grasp, or don't want to grasp is that by using Air2000 your paperwork is correct and signed by someone in authority over the airport SAPS officer, thus you are not subject to the personal whims of the local officer, who can hold you up as he sees fit, or extract a bribe.

I don't see why this concept is so hard to understand..........................JJ

PS........To all who might stick a foot out and trip me, well someone will wear a ass beaten', I don't know who, you or me but we will find out...........JJ

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
PS........To all who might stick a foot out and trip me, well someone will wear a ass beaten', I don't know who, you or me but we will find out...........JJ

Oh, for Christ's sake....does every discussion around here have to come down to "we'll just see who has the bigger dick"?

.