Anyone catch this. Maybe it's me but there seems to be more and more of this. Yuck.

Summary to save you the trouble: some TV hunter spends the first portion bragging how he has the best bow and equipment and has practiced for years and is really good blah blah blah. Second half is following his horribly shot lion around the "wild" Kalahari with WOW Africa Safari.

yea I watched it and was not the least bit impressed. I am sure there is some great lion hunting in SA, but this was not it. Bad show for bowhunting of what I am guessing was a pen raised lion.

show?

Another pen raised lion'hunt.'We are averaging one a week on both Outdoor Channel and sportsman Channel. And not one producer being honest about the situation. I have no problem if they are up front on the fence, but it is NEVER the case. Gets old doing it right, hunting like hell, coming up empty many times on this species and have our competition doing one day hunts with a monster lion down and few folks watching know the difference. Just be honest on the situation.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Another pen raised lion'hunt.'We are averaging one a week on both Outdoor Channel and sportsman Channel. And not one producer being honest about the situation. I have no problem if they are up front on the fence, but it is NEVER the case. Gets old doing it right, hunting like hell, coming up empty many times on this species and have our competition doing one day hunts with a monster lion down and few folks watching know the difference. Just be honest on the situation.

Dave:

There is no "competition." Anyone can see this is BS. Like I said, show us all of these hunts; a 21 day lion hunt is sure to have good scenes of buffalo, PG, etc. even if our hero doesn't shoot a lion.

Western Extreme is just bad TV. I missed the show because it is crap.

I was watching an episode of Petersen's HUNTING last night on TV while I had dinner. It was an elk and mule deer hunt. They showed the group of three going out day after day. Kevin Steele shot a mule deer on the last day, and Ron Coburn from Savage shot an elk the last evening. I thought the show was good in that I kept thinking, "Gee, maybe they strike out...but at least it was suspenseful."

Only black mark on the show was the elk the ATK rep shot - ran off, it was dark, and they said they were going to "recover it." Never did see that elk as the show ended on that note.

This am I read the latest Safari Times. Some woman reported in the Hunt Report section that she "got her trophy Cape buffalo in South Africa which completed her big 5."

How the f*$k can someone get a lion and never shoot a buffalo? Wait...shoot a pen raised lion.

quote:

Western Extreme is just bad TV. I missed the show because it is crap

+1
that dufuss had another show before this one & he was just as big a dipchit then

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Fulson:


How the f*$k can someone get a lion and never shoot a buffalo? Wait...shoot a pen raised lion.

LOL she must be the first "hunter" that finsh off her big five with a buff!

That's the same nimrod that shot an obviously tame/drugged elk behind a high fence in Idaho or some such place.

Burnworth never did mention that his violent shopping for livestock took place behind a wire. In fact, he wanted the viewers to believe how fortuntate he was.

That was the last time I watched that show. Looks like more of the same stadium size ego , concerned only with killing animals for TV show and not the pursuit of these majestic animals..

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:
That's the same nimrod that shot an obviously tame/drugged elk behind a high fence in Idaho or some such place.

Burnworth never did mention that his violent shopping for livestock took place behind a wire. In fact, he wanted the viewers to believe how fortuntate he was.

That was the last time I watched that show. Looks like more of the same stadium size ego , concerned only with killing animals for TV show and not the pursuit of these majestic animals..

It also reminds me when you see the same guy behind the trigger week after week, it gets pretty boring. Another plus for TAA.

Shame. I have not watched it, but Bwanna said he watched about 30 seconds of it and turned it off.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Another pen raised lion'hunt.'We are averaging one a week on both Outdoor Channel and sportsman Channel. And not one producer being honest about the situation. I have no problem if they are up front on the fence, but it is NEVER the case. Gets old doing it right, hunting like hell, coming up empty many times on this species and have our competition doing one day hunts with a monster lion down and few folks watching know the difference. Just be honest on the situation.

I agree Dave and Boddington has in writing (Yes, I lumped us together). Not everyone will agree with that type of hunting but you're sure not helping it by not being honest about it

quote:

Originally posted by Gayne C. Young:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Another pen raised lion'hunt.'We are averaging one a week on both Outdoor Channel and sportsman Channel. And not one producer being honest about the situation. I have no problem if they are up front on the fence, but it is NEVER the case. Gets old doing it right, hunting like hell, coming up empty many times on this species and have our competition doing one day hunts with a monster lion down and few folks watching know the difference. Just be honest on the situation.

I agree Dave and Boddington has in writing (Yes, I lumped us together). Not everyone will agree with that type of hunting but you're sure not helping it by not being honest about it

I may be wrong, but while Boddington has never taken a penned raised lion, I don't recall him speaking out against it. Maybe he would care to now. More people need to. Tim Herald has.

Yup, quite disgusting. Whitetail hunting know-it-all Larry Weishun shot one on a show the other day. Lots of congratulations and pompous speech by the SA PH who had the balls to say something to the effect that he specialized in hunting lions (he forgot to mention drugged lions)!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Another pen raised lion'hunt.'We are averaging one a week on both Outdoor Channel and sportsman Channel. And not one producer being honest about the situation. I have no problem if they are up front on the fence, but it is NEVER the case. Gets old doing it right, hunting like hell, coming up empty many times on this species and have our competition doing one day hunts with a monster lion down and few folks watching know the difference. Just be honest on the situation.

I think Craig has stated (on AR) his position on the pen raised lion hunts.

Is there now a difference on AR i e pen raised lion hunts vs TV show pen raised lion hunts?

I don't see any fault when a hunter takes a pen raised lion vs a "wild" lion taken on bait when he knows what he is getting and doing.

I have heard "raised" lions can be more dangerous than "wild" lions and not talking about "drugged" lions.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I think Craig has stated (on AR) his position on the pen raised lion hunts.

Is there now a difference on AR i e pen raised lion hunts vs TV show pen raised lion hunts?

I don't see any fault when a hunter takes a pen raised lion vs a "wild" lion taken on bait when he knows what he is getting and doing.

I have heard "raised" lions can be more dangerous than "wild" lions and not talking about "drugged" lions.

Of course its more dangerous, no animal likes to get cornered in a fence. Wild lions, you don't have that same problem! LOL

I believe penned lions do take pressure off wild populations, but right or wrong is up to the person doing it. My issue was if you do it on TV, be honest about the set-up and quit trying to pass it off as a real lion hunt as every producer that has done it try's to do. There is, in my opinion, a hell of a difference between a fenced lion and a fenced whitetail.

Dave, I personally don't see the difference in the two hunts both animials are in a controlled area. I have never been on a high fenced whitetail hunt for my self only as an observer (owner was trying to sell the operation to me) and we knew the shooter would get his whitetail i e a 7 pointer he purchased - had to pass on nice 8 and 10 point bucks. It was a small property about 1,000 acres and it took about 6 hrs to find the "buck". Personally I find the whitetail hunt to be no different than the lion hunt i e game raised to be shot. I guess that is why SCI (bad word) in their record books classify the lions from RSA and Namabia different, same as exoctics in the states. JMO and it is worth what one pays for it, eh.

I don't know anything about these whitetail hunts but can I assume they've been in the fenced area for a significant amount of time?

If so, the obvious difference is that the lion won't have been & therefore isn't familiar with the geography of the area or it's escape routes etc.

We can debate all kinds of nuances, ethics, and fair chase issues about fenced hunting, but really these are all revealed by answering this question:

What is the purpose of the fence?

fences aside, this the the same dork that had a show where he bowhunted RSA waterholes & pretended that he was the worlds greatest

In the whitetail world, and it is far different for lions for the reason Shakari pointed out, fences can do the following. In areas with high deer density, you can control the numbers of deer on your property to a level the feed and cover can support. I used to operate on a ranch( low fence) where we worked like hell to provide year round forage via food plots. Problem was we were surrounded by large ranches on three sides with sheep and goats that left those ranges overgrazed. Guess where the neighbors deer fed every night? Our deer did not benefit in relation to our efforts. The difference in a 300 acre place and a 5000 acre place is vast, I get that, but whitetail that grow up there are a far cry from a lion dumped on a property he neither knows, and into a sacrificial role he cannot understand. BIG difference.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

What is the purpose of the fence?

Well, here in Texas, especially in the Hill Country area, where there is a very high density of deer, as Dave says, it is to keep deer out as much as it is to keep deer in. By controlling the population, ie. keeping it artificially low for that specific area, you can better control the nutrition available to the herd. This also allows effective culling to remove animals with undesirable genes, while keeping the undesirable genes out of the herd from surrounding ranches. Within the fence, one can also better manage the doe to buck ratio.

We can go on and on like this all day but the important point I'm trying to make is that many who are unfamiliar with high fence operations in Texas think the purpose is to prevent the deer herd from escaping the property. Well, that's part of it but far from the entire story.

As has been stated here before, the big difference between plains game or White Tail Deer on a fenced property, assuming it is of adequate size, and a pen raised lion, is that the plains game have usually been born and bred there, lived their entire life on the property, know all the escape routes and hidey holes and are very capable of evading people as they fend for themselves, especially when it comes to food and water. The lion on the other hand has been recently placed on an unfamiliar property, knows nothing of his surroundings, has never been responsible for obtaining his own food and water, does not know to avoid humans. Quite the contrary! The lion understands the sight / sounds of humans and the truck as dinner time and is much more likely to approach the hunting party than avoid it.

I've never hunted a high fence ranch in Texas. I have hunted high fence properties in RSA and New Zealand. I've never seen a Zebra, Kudu, Impala, or any other plains game animal approach a truck or hunter expecting to be fed. On wild area hunts such as in Zim, these plains game animals will often look at you out of curiosity for a brief period prior to fleeing. On the RSA fenced ranches, they often flee immediately as they know what the truck means. The biggest threat with an RSA lion is that he may jump into the back of the truck with you looking for a handout of a couple of live chickens!

Unfortunately ego and money lead people to do all sorts of lame things, especially when it comes to hunting. Having personally seen some domestic "lame ass" hunting filmed for shows, and how it was edited and produced and what went on the "show" for mass consumptiom was at times horribly unethical, fake and glamorized. I can only imagine what goes on in Africa as it is a much higher dollar type operation. I have a bunch of these channels and most are so boring, lame and obviously fake or contrived it makes me laugh. It does not bode well in my opinion for the future of the sport. This show sounds really bad, I'll look for it LOL what channel?

I'm all for canned lion "hunting".

We just need to change the rules. First, you take the lion and lean him up a bit (translated -- don't feed him for three days). Next, you get him fit (translated -- sneak up next to his cage when he is asleep and nail him with a cattle prod, so he understands the proper relationship with humans). Then you let out the lion in a small enclosure -- only restriction -- choice of weapons. Lion brings his own. "Hunter" gets a spear. Kind of like a cage fight.

Oh, but I'd allow the option of drugged lions too if you wish. Drug options would be PCP or Meth (or some vetinary equivalent). Of course, the "hunter" could use his or her drug of choice.

In my opinion, making it fair is all about setting the appropriate rules.

Now that's a canned lion "hunt" I'd watch on TV.

I too would tune in to that!

It would be a interesting show. My bet is on the Lion.

I saw the show yesterday. What a joke! Any respect that I had for Burnworth is long gone.

465H&H

465H&H

I assume you are just being polite, because I can't for the life of me see how you could have ever had respect for Burnworth. I am assuming you have seen his other pathetic shows he has put on with his significant other or TV partner. Like Mr. whitetail, past performance is a good indication of future results.

quote:

There is, in my opinion, a hell of a difference between a fenced lion and a fenced whitetail.

That is a very interesting statement.

Is there a difference between a "canned" lion hunt and "canned" whitetail hunt then that some of the shows are airing?

As a matter of fact, YES. Just because a whitetail( born on the property where the hunt takes place) lives under high fence, he is no pushover by any means. Of course the property, combined with cover must be large enough to allow free movement and natural escape options.Here is a for instance. I have a friend with a 400 acre property dedicated to the goal of raising as big a buck as he can grow. And grow they have. One 5 year old buck has antlers that are about 30 inches inside wide, so there is no mistaking him. There is very little hunting on this property, but the deer are spooky as hell all the same. I have been hunting whitetail pretty seriously for over 30 years, and guiding the last 20, or so and feel I am adept at getting close to these critters. I tried, over weeks, in the rut and out, to video this buck. I busted my ass in fact. Walking, sitting in blinds, rattling, the works. I am talking LOTS of hours. I saw this buck three times total, and have no more than 30 seconds of decent video. Had there been a lion released in the same property, same cover, same weather I would have had him in the skinning shed by lunch with room to spare. Yes, there is a BIG difference.

Hunting whitetail on 400 acre and not finding a terratorial animal, can't buy that.

Dave is exactly right. I turned loose a one year old buck, ear tagged, inside a 500 acre high fence place. He was seen several time that first season, exactly twice when he was 2.5, NEVER seen again in daylight and only a few times at night over the next several years. Plenty of pics at 2am at a feeder but NO daylight sightings. Owner lived on the property and drove thru it all the time. NO SIGHTINGS, even in the rut while hunting other deer.

One couldn't of killed that deer if your life depended on it.....

Now if you are talking about small hand fed, tame deer it is a different story. Raised in a small pen used to humans, and then turned loose on 200 ac the day before the "hunters" arrive....

quote:

Originally posted by seawoodII:
Hunting whitetail on 400 acre and not finding a terratorial animal, can't buy that.

You obviously have never hunted a mature whitetail buck...

I call BS on that Dave.

So those wonderful whitetail "hunting" shows taking place at the various "sanctuaries" that show the bucks eating under roofed food troughs and those same "mature" bucks that just turn and look and the hunting party from their beds are not the same?

I deplore any type of "canned" hunting but you are being a hypocrite when you say it is OK for whitetails. Wild is wild, habituated is habituated, and livestock is livestock. No matter the species.

What about all the exotic scenarios in TX where you tell the "ranch" what you would like to shoot so they can go to the auction and release into the fenced pasture before you get there?

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
I call BS on that Dave.

So those wonderful whitetail "hunting" shows taking place at the various "sanctuaries" that show the bucks eating under roofed food troughs and those same "mature" bucks that just turn and look and the hunting party from their beds are not the same?

I deplore any type of "canned" hunting but you are being a hypocrite when you say it is OK for whitetails. Wild is wild, habituated is habituated, and livestock is livestock. No matter the species.

What about all the exotic scenarios in TX where you tell the "ranch" what you would like to shoot so they can go to the auction and release into the fenced pasture before you get there?

This is getting off-topic....BUT....

Perhaps you should come down to Texas and visit a couple proper high fenced properties so that you will be more informed on the subject. You are correct when you say "wild is wild, habituated is habituated, and livestock is livestock". This is 100% correct....but it has nothing to do with the fence. It has everything to do with how the animals are treated. (For the record, I have seen plenty of tame deer and other "game species" on totally free-ranging land due to lack of hunting pressure or people feeding them).

I'm not sure where you (and many others in general) get the idea that all exotic hunting is done by means of buying animals at auctions and releasing them. Sure that happens....but the vast majority of high fenced properties manage completely wild and self-sustaining populations of animals (whether native or exotic). I urge you to come down and chase Axis Deer or Aoudad on a property of a couple thousand acres.....it will change your opinion, I promise.

Now in regards to canned Lions....

I have no first-hand experience on the matter....but I am smart enough to understand that ANY animal which is placed into a foreign environment shortly before being pursued is not going to act naturally, nor is it going to offer a sporting hunt. However, I also believe it makes things exponentially worse when you are dealing with a CARNIVORE that was raised in small pen, was used to having fresh meat tossed into his enclosure by a man everyday....and has literally no concept of how to catch or kill his own food in a natural environment.

I believe this is where Dave is making his distinction....and I agree with him.

I think if "how hard it could be to kill a deer or lion or Dall sheep on a high fenced farm" is the test, you might be missing the point.

You sound like me when I defend hound hunting when someone says it ain't sporting because it's so easy. I say how hard it is to respond to the accusation that I'm cheating and it "looks" easy or looks like cheating. I have lots of examples of difficult hunts with dogs like you do with your fenced deer. Fact is hound hunting can be damn easy compared to other methods. It has also lead me to several of the very hardest physical hunts I have ever done or even heard of. None of that solves the problem that it looks like cheating to a lot of people.

I believe Todd Williams said it well earlier in this thread. Dave Fulson and others have also said it well. Bitch as you may about high fences in Texas and elsewhere, but look at what we've lost recently: schimtar oryx, addax, and dama gazelle. These animals were huntable, even saved from extinction, by game management and conservation.

We lost to that crazy broad at HSUS, or wherever she was from, but we have resources. We lose them when we can't agree on "proper" hunting. Those of you that saw the CBS show must remember the hunter struck out on his first oryx hunt. He did return to try again. It's not fish in the barrel. How many of the lion hunts referenced above are unsuccessful? I assume not many.

Craig Boddington wrote an article in Sports Afield recently stating something along the lines of the whitetail being one of the most cunning animals he has hunted. I may have paraphrased, but something along those lines.

We are quite far from the original topic, but I can guarantee that you can have a "wild" whitetail hunt on a property enclosed by a high fence. Not all of them, but most. Texas Parks & Wildlife has decided to kill some breeder herds due to "suspicion of CWD." It was more of a witch hunt, in my opinion, but it was sad to see. TPWD wouldn't even allow the venison to be donated to the needy. I digress.

To the doubters, I'd love to front the cost of a hunt for a trophy whitetail behind a high fence, but I can't. However, I can recommend places. High fences are used more as a management tool than for containment.

Flame on, but that's my opinion.

I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking high fence hunting is all the same but there's a mountain of difference between hunting an antelope/deer in a fenced area when it's been there a large part of it's life & often it's whole life, knows the geography & escape routes etc & hunting a lion that's just been released and has no idea of those same things.

The situation might be different if the said lion was familiar with area and knew the aforementioned geography & escape routes but no matter how you dress it up, that ain't the case & that is the essential difference.

Therefore one is hunting and the other isn't.

Let's not forget that Minister van Skalkwik had the chance to make a big difference with his Dangerous Animals Act a few years ago but bottled out and removed lion from the list of dangerous animals at the last minute and so removed the requirement for a wilding period for captive bred lions.

That said, even if he hadn't, the requirement would probably have meant the practice would no longer be an economically viable proposition for the breeders so the practice would probably have stopped rather than make it easier for people to take a lion.

That in my opinion would have been a good thing though.

SD has his mind made up.Fine with me. As for calling BS, well I guess my 30 career hunting, guiding, video and photo work with whitetail, as well as two decades all over Africa, much of it in lion country, have given me no insight into the game, and thus render my thoughts useless.
But... I am always willing to gain knowledge through experts such as him. Teach us Bwana....