quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
SD has his mind made up.Fine with me. As for calling BS, well I guess my 30 career hunting, guiding, video and photo work with whitetail, as well as two decades all over Africa, much of it in lion country, have given me no insight into the game, and thus render my thoughts useless.
But... I am always willing to gain knowledge through experts such as him. Teach us Bwana....

Dave,

Nice to see that your finally learning some humility!

465H&H

On another husband\wife show lat night, PSE's Pete Shepley arrowed a tame buff out of a herd of 4-5 that stood looking at them. Another 'authentic" brush with death.

Dave,
Is there a way to conduct a properly fenced lion hunt?

How can you be for canned whitetail hunts and against canned lion hunts?

When I say canned whitetail I am specifically talking about the livestock, habituated, not afraid of humans. Exactly like the lions in Africa. I have seen these types of whitetail hunts on the outdoor shows.

In my mind what's the difference between the two.

I have been to TX numerous times, I understand what goes on down there. I understand that not all fenced pastures in TX are created equal. In fact the canned whitetail hunts I have seen on TV are in Michigan and Kentucky. I have never hunted whitetails in TX as I have spent over 30 years chasing them where I live.

Please don't talk down to me, I have a legitimate question comparing canned whitetail hunting to canned lion hunting. You are defending canned whitetail hunting but deplore canned lion hunting? Do you understand where I am coming from?

SD,

I haven't seen a single post from anyone here supporting "canned White Tail Deer" hunts when using the definition of the tame deer that are accustomed to being fed by humans. Such deer would be typically from an Artificial Insemination facility and certainly would not present a challenge under any circumstance. This would be very similar to an RSA lion hunt as deer like this would be a "put and take" scenario.

However, the deer behind high fences here in TX, the above example not withstanding, are anything but tame. They know their environment and how to avoid people.

I'm afraid this is one of those issues where a certain mindset has been established, contrary to the facts at hand. We Texans can talk and explain until we are blue in the face but it isn't going to change anyone's mind. As DCS said, if someone were to front the money for you to hunt one of these properties, and again, I'm talking about a legitimate high fence operation whereby the fence is used to keep the undesirable genes out as well as to surpress the population and manage the buck to doe ratio, and of course, being of adequate size, I can assure you that you would come away with a different opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
SD,

I haven't seen a single post from anyone here supporting "canned White Tail Deer" hunts when using the definition of the tame deer that are accustomed to being fed by humans. Such deer would be typically from an Artificial Insemination facility and certainly would not present a challenge under any circumstance. This would be very similar to an RSA lion hunt as deer like this would be a "put and take" scenario.

However, the deer behind high fences here in TX, the above example not withstanding, are anything but tame. They know their environment and how to avoid people.

I'm afraid this is one of those issues where a certain mindset has been established, contrary to the facts at hand. We Texans can talk and explain until we are blue in the face but it isn't going to change anyone's mind. As DCS said, if someone were to front the money for you to hunt one of these properties, and again, I'm talking about a legitimate high fence operation whereby the fence is used to keep the undesirable genes out as well as to surpress the population and manage the buck to doe ratio, and of course, being of adequate size, I can assure you that you would come away with a different opinion.

Todd:

No doubt finding a single whitetail can be challenging. But how many high fence hunters come away empty handed?

quote:

Is there a way to conduct a properly fenced lion hunt

certainly there is; You don a loin cloth and nothing else, Get you 10.840589" knife, find a willing woman to don a similar outfit, a chimpanzee, a wild elephant to ride and then go wrestle the lion, while the woman screams, the monkey runs, the ele trumpets, mark sullivan back you up, and you repeatedly stab the lion while combing his mane to look presentable

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
SD,

I haven't seen a single post from anyone here supporting "canned White Tail Deer" hunts when using the definition of the tame deer that are accustomed to being fed by humans. Such deer would be typically from an Artificial Insemination facility and certainly would not present a challenge under any circumstance. This would be very similar to an RSA lion hunt as deer like this would be a "put and take" scenario.

However, the deer behind high fences here in TX, the above example not withstanding, are anything but tame. They know their environment and how to avoid people.

I'm afraid this is one of those issues where a certain mindset has been established, contrary to the facts at hand. We Texans can talk and explain until we are blue in the face but it isn't going to change anyone's mind. As DCS said, if someone were to front the money for you to hunt one of these properties, and again, I'm talking about a legitimate high fence operation whereby the fence is used to keep the undesirable genes out as well as to surpress the population and manage the buck to doe ratio, and of course, being of adequate size, I can assure you that you would come away with a different opinion.

Todd:

No doubt finding a single whitetail can be challenging. But how many high fence hunters come away empty handed?

AAZW,

Like I said before, I haven't hunted a high fence ranch for White Tail. I do know quite a few guys that own ranches of this nature.
From what they tell me, most successful hunters are taking "management" type deer and not the big "trophy" class bucks. From what I understand, the success rate on the big boys is far from 100%. Because the property is managed for these big bucks, I'm sure the harvest per hunter is higher than the surrounding area but only because of a higher density of big bucks per acre. Finding a monster deer on one of these properties however is anything but a sure thing as they do all the things that deer on an unfenced property do, such as go nocturnal once human activity in the area picks up.

Now in the case of the put and take type of operations, which I would agree are "canned", I imagine most if not all shoot a deer. That isn't the type of place I'm speaking of however. In all honesty, I'm not a fan of the Artificial Insemination programs. A fellow I grew up with purchased the property next door to my parents homestead in East Texas and is now running one of these facilities. I've been over there a couple of times and seeing a 250+ deer there is NOTHING special at all. They are a dime a dozen and just about as tame as a common cow or bull in the back 40 pasture. The fact that guys will spend upwards of $20K to shoot one of these animals is absolutely beyond me. I don't get it. Not at all. Think of what you can do in Africa for that money!!

But again, a fenced property that is fenced to manage a native herd, simply taking advantage of maximizing what nature has already supplied by providing proper nutrition through controlling the population, is certainly a different situation. Under that program, the deer are naturally breeding and not being artificially matched based on tracking data on which does have produced and which have not, (the doe being more important than the buck in determining which animals become monsters in AI operations).

As far a answering your question on how many go home from a fenced property without a deer? I really don't know the answer to that question for you. Maybe some of the guys who are involved with one of these ranches will chime in here. I do think you'll need to refine your question a bit however because if you haven't hunted Texas before, I think you'd be surprised at the sheer number of deer here and the density. Especially in areas such as the Central part of the state. Simply shooting a deer in Texas is pretty darn easy. Shooting a deer up to say 120" is not difficult either in many places. If you refine the question to say, what percentage of hunters, hunting on fenced properties, shoot deer of 150" or more? I'd say the percentage is still pretty low. Higher than the surrounding non-fenced ranch perhaps, but still pretty low as a deer like that is going to be a smart animal, unless he was raised on an AI property.

quote:

There is, in my opinion, a hell of a difference between a fenced lion and a fenced whitetail.

This is the exact quote I am concerned about. I fully understand all the different shades of grey of fenced whitetail deer hunting. But the exact situation that is so repulsing with lions is happening right here in the United States with whitetail deer, along with elk, exotics, hogs and who knows what else.

I have spent over 30 years hunting wild, public/private land deer/antelpoe/elk/bear whitetails where I live, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what fair chase is. I have also watched enough shows and spent enough time in TX on both low and high fence property to have an intelligent understanding of the different fence issues.

I find canned hunting deplorable and sickening.

Dave, I am sorry if I touched a nerve, but because of your standing, you should be held accountable for your words. You are right about one thing, you are not going to change my mind about fenced hunting. But you have changed my opinion of you.

Sorry this thread got off topic.

Hunters can't agree on much that is obvious. We make farmers look cooperative and of one mind. Anyway I have a prediction about Texas:

In 100 years hopefully not less, Texas and its experience game farmers will be keeping a genetically diverse representation of the megafauna of Africa and many of the smaller game animals. As former African wild places are overrun and infested with people, only a place with the know how and rule of law will keep a lot of the animals we take for granted alive. is there any doubt that Texas will have Black Rhino long after every one is gone in Africa? I would hope South Africa and Namibia would carry the load, but it is clear to me they will fail. It is Texas and the often degraded game farmers who are going to be the last best hope to supply animals to Africa if at some point this human wave collapses.

How is it relevant? Who really cares? I mention this only because I think within your young grandchild's lifetime, more and more Safari hunting will transfer to Texas. So we had better get it right going in.

Nobody hopes I'm wrong more than me.

SD
Sorry your opinion of me is less than when this thread started. I mean that. Yes, nerves do get touched, and the "every fenced hunt is canned" touches lots of nerves for those of us that sometimes hunt on fenced properties, but would NEVER participate in a canned, animal has NO chance killing. Notice I did not say HUNT. I also deplore the ranches that kick deer out of a trailer or breeding pen and then have people shoot them and call it a hunt. We just disagree on the word and definition of "canned." I believe you and I are more on the same page than you think, but I have stated my opinion as best I can, based on my experience, and from the hart. Sorry if I let a bit of my attitude offend you. I do not mean to offend, and I know I did. My sincere apologies, and I hope you will accept them and we can agree to disagree.

Don't you just love it when Outdoor Show producers and hosts blast each other and their shows in the open media? It's bad enough when we hunters do it, but you would think the "producers" would have some sort of creed and respect in their "profession"?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Some of us sound off because WE DO respect our profession.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Don't you just love it when Outdoor Show producers and hosts blast each other and their shows in the open media? It's bad enough when we hunters do it, but you would think the "producers" would have some sort of creed and respect in their "profession"?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Well ... All outdoor shows are not created equal! Some are authentic and attempt to portray hunting for what it really is. Others, not so much! Personally, I think it's a good thing when the quality producers put pressure on the others to raise their standards.

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Hunters can't agree on much that is obvious. We make farmers look cooperative and of one mind. Anyway I have a prediction about Texas:

In 100 years hopefully not less, Texas and its experience game farmers will be keeping a genetically diverse representation of the megafauna of Africa and many of the smaller game animals. As former African wild places are overrun and infested with people, only a place with the know how and rule of law will keep a lot of the animals we take for granted alive. is there any doubt that Texas will have Black Rhino long after every one is gone in Africa? I would hope South Africa and Namibia would carry the load, but it is clear to me they will fail. It is Texas and the often degraded game farmers who are going to be the last best hope to supply animals to Africa if at some point this human wave collapses.

How is it relevant? Who really cares? I mention this only because I think within your young grandchild's lifetime, more and more Safari hunting will transfer to Texas. So we had better get it right going in.

Nobody hopes I'm wrong more than me.

Hallelujah! Texas is the promise land! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Some of us sound off because WE DO respect our profession.

I agree.

What was the purpose of that comment Larry? Why shouldn't those in this profession be critical? You wouldn't happen to have a "trophy lion" taken behind fences, would you?

Funny how no one on this site admits to it, even though some seem to defend the practice.

AZ - Just pointing out the fact that it really doesn't help our cause as hunters when "hunting show makers" bash and trash each other in open media forums. Maybe they could just talk one on one with each other instead of debating their differences on places like AR? This just comes off to many as "my show is better than yours", "my show is bigger than yours", "my ethics are better than yours", etc.

I have a New Mexico Mountain Lion, that's it for the Lion thing. Never wanted or had the need to hunt African Lion. Sorry, no canned Lion here for your fishing expedition AZ.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Some of us sound off because WE DO respect our profession.

I agree.

What was the purpose of that comment Larry? Why shouldn't those in this profession be critical? You wouldn't happen to have a "trophy lion" taken behind fences, would you?

Funny how no one on this site admits to it, even though some seem to defend the practice.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
AZ - Just pointing out the fact that it really doesn't help our cause as hunters when "hunting show makers" bash and trash each other in open media forums. Maybe they could just talk one on one with each other instead of debating their differences on places like AR? This just comes off to many as "my show is better than yours", "my show is bigger than yours", "my ethics are better than yours", etc.

I have a New Mexico Mountain Lion, that's it for the Lion thing. Never wanted or had the need to hunt African Lion. Sorry, no canned Lion here for your fishing expedition AZ.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Some of us sound off because WE DO respect our profession.

I agree.

What was the purpose of that comment Larry? Why shouldn't those in this profession be critical? You wouldn't happen to have a "trophy lion" taken behind fences, would you?

Funny how no one on this site admits to it, even though some seem to defend the practice.

Thanks for responding Larry. I see no problem with "bashing" shows like Western Extreme.

As for "my show is better than yours" - well, if you are portraying lion hunting behind fences as the "real deal" then you deserve the criticism.

Just saw the show this afternoon. My main problem with it is how far they went to make it look like a real hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Fulson:


How the f*$k can someone get a lion and never shoot a buffalo? Wait...shoot a pen raised lion.

LOL she must be the first "hunter" that finsh off her big five with a buff!

I wish folks would keep to the subject of canned hunts for dangerous game in Africa. To me, the Texas situation, while worthy of debate I guess, is another topic.

As for taking a buff as the final of Big 5, pardon my ignorance, but in my own experience, we took the buff early in order to have bait for the toothy ones.

For me, no bait is a pretty good indicator of a canned lion hunt. But then, maybe it depends on where you are. I was in the Kafue in Zambia.