Good letter Marty.

Well said Bill.

Decisions like this are why we should all me members of SCI and/or DSC.

Speaking of SCI, another thing bothers me here. One of the reasons trade associations exist is to gather intel, keep their eyes and ears open, develop relationships with agency staffers to ensure a flow of information, etc. This enables the association to anticipate actions and be in a position to take actions behind the scenes in advance, even to the point of leaking the information to allow folks to stir up Congress and the like. What does it say regarding the effectiveness of a group like SCI that such a policy can be dropped on a Friday with no apparent prior knowledge? And if there was prior knowledge, why no warning that "we are hearing rumblings that . . ." I realize that groups like SCI and DSC are all we have as sportsmen to deal with these issues, but this makes me wonder just how well positioned these groups are to even gather information much less proactively influence outcomes.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
Blaming this all on the Obama administration is 100% pure unadulterated bullshit.

Hunters, and especially trophy hunters, have been under attack for at least half a century by the mainstream media.

This administration is not to blame in the least and the constant references to Obama are just another example of insecure little white boys who are afraid of black men.

The references to the Chinese, on the other hand, have considerably more merit.

SteveGI-are you insinuating that I am an insecure little white boy? Or that I am afraid of black men? You obviously don't know me or you would not dare to state such a ridiculous remark. I can assure you, I am not the least bit insecure or afraid of anything. I wont speak for the others on here, they can do that for themselves, but I am sure most of them feel the same about your stupid statement. You and your condescending snide little/old man remarks are getting annoying to the crazyhorse and shootaway potential. If you have an opinion - fine. But don't insult the rest of us in stating your opinion. I would advise caution in any further opinions you might have and re-think the phrasing before posting. Calling me or many of the guys on here scared little white boys could have very negative results, and I am sure it does not hold well with the various outfitters that frequent this site. You may soon find yourself short of friends. People don't like to be insulted.

And you are wrong - this has everything to do with the Obama administration and his appointees to executive posts. When right wing liberal anti hunters are appointed to the highest level of the executive government, their decisions are what is going to drive that particular government entity-based upon the wishes of the president included. This would not have happened under a Republican President, white or black

If I were you I would retract your ignorant statement and apologize to this community - like a man

Rory

http://www.fws.gov/internation...-hunted-trophies.pdf


This provides some insight.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
Blaming this all on the Obama administration is 100% pure unadulterated bullshit.

Hunters, and especially trophy hunters, have been under attack for at least half a century by the mainstream media.

This administration is not to blame in the least and the constant references to Obama are just another example of insecure little white boys who are afraid of black men.

The references to the Chinese, on the other hand, have considerably more merit.

SteveGI-are you insinuating that I am an insecure little white boy? Or that I am afraid of black men? You obviously don't know me or you would not dare to state such a ridiculous remark. I can assure you, I am not the least bit insecure or afraid of anything. I wont speak for the others on here, they can do that for themselves, but I am sure most of them feel the same about your stupid statement. You and your condescending snide little/old man remarks are getting annoying to the crazyhorse and shootaway potential. If you have an opinion - fine. But don't insult the rest of us in stating your opinion. I would advise caution in any further opinions you might have and re-think the phrasing before posting. Calling me or many of the guys on here scared little white boys could have very negative results, and I am sure it does not hold well with the various outfitters that frequent this site. You may soon find yourself short of friends. People don't like to be insulted.

And you are wrong - this has everything to do with the Obama administration and his appointees to executive posts. When right wing liberal anti hunters are appointed to the highest level of the executive government, their decisions are what is going to drive that particular government entity-based upon the wishes of the president included. This would not have happened under a Republican President, white or black

If I were you I would retract your ignorant statement and apologize to this community - like a man

Rory

Yeah, I agree; it's a bit ridiculous, though not completely. It's been my experience that there's an inherent fear of black men in a lot of the anti Obama crowd, probably born out of not having any familiarity with black men or the black experience. No all, but some.

That's just been my experience having grown up in an all-white community but later spending a lot of time in the black community.

But my comment was out-of-line and over the top - so I'll apologise for that. I think I just got up on the wrong side of bed today.

But there are a lot of black men who believe what I wrote, and with good reason. I'll leave it at that.

Take it or leave it.

Why is it that any criticism of Obama results in a charge of racism and an ad hominem attach?

It is just beyond stupid, ridiculous half ass apology notwithstanding.

JPK

The race card does not apply to the issue at hand. The subject of this thread is way too important to let it degenerate into petty political squabbling.
My feelings are all over the map, but my personal feelings toward Obama should not be on that map.
While I agree that his politics enable federal agencies to act in this fashion, for another 2 1/2 years, we must function within that framework and do what we can to mitigate.

Assuming a U.S. hunter successfully takes a 2014 TZ or Zim elephant, what happens to the tusks? Do they belong to the hunter or are they the property of the local government? If they belong to the hunter can they be sold in the international ivory market? Could they be donated to conservation "charity" and the hunter receive a tax deduction. Could they be retained by the safari company, sold and the funds used for anti-poaching?

Maybe it is now time to stop bemoaning the ruling, its timing, motivation, etc. and find constructive ways to benefit hunting & conservation. Non of us are as smart as all of us! Lets put our heads together and see if we can't make the best out of a changing environment.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
Anyone know who to write, call, email or in any other way bitch and moan about this snap decision and maybe file a lawsuit let me know

I hear you Rory. I too am/was to hunt trophy bull with Nixon in less than a month. I especially feel sorry for the poor guys who pulled the trigger in January, February or March. 15K-20K trophy fee pissed away. Perhaps Mike Jines can advise us of the possibility of a class action lawsuit?

This sucks!

Happily, my ivory came into NYC 2 weeks ago, and are now in my possession... Close. No matter what they say about "past years", these guys at JFK are useless jerks.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
Anyone know who to write, call, email or in any other way bitch and moan about this snap decision and maybe file a lawsuit let me know

Perhaps Mike Jines can advise us of the possibility of a class action lawsuit?

Against the government? No chance. The only way to reverse the situation would be to challenge the rule as being beyond the agency's authority or an abuse of discretion. Both of those are tough arguments to make. And it will take months/years to mount such a challenge. Also the possibility of a court granting any interim relief like a stay of the rule is a virtual pipe dream too. Wish I could paint a prettier picture, but that's the truth of the matter.

I should think at the very least, SCI would be looking for an injunction. I doubt much will happen over the weekend.

I just committed to Buzz my plan to carry on with my bull hunt. I hate the idea of likely not getting my ivory, but there is at least an outside chance something could break our way. This might be my last, best chance to hunt a bull. If this ban has the intended effect, there may soon be no one left to take me elephant hunting. I leave in a week, wish me luck!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
http://www.fws.gov/internation...-hunted-trophies.pdf


This provides some insight.

I think a change in this administrative ruling will be very difficult.

How do you implement effective policies in Zim and Tanzania in 9 months?

How do you get slow growing and long lived animals like elephants to improve herd size in 9 months?

This will shut down US elephant hunting/import for a long long time from Zim and Tanzania.

A republican in 2016 would make little difference this is now the dark void of administrative law and agency rule making. Did a republican president open up cheetah imports ? This is now in the hands of your favorite gs 14/15 bureaucrat.

Hopefully Botswana with a herd of 205k elephants growing at 5 percent a year opens up hunting again.

What a total disaster !!! I hope I am wrong.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
Blaming this all on the Obama administration is 100% pure unadulterated bullshit.

Hunters, and especially trophy hunters, have been under attack for at least half a century by the mainstream media.

This administration is not to blame in the least and the constant references to Obama are just another example of insecure little white boys who are afraid of black men.

The references to the Chinese, on the other hand, have considerably more merit.

SteveGI-are you insinuating that I am an insecure little white boy? Or that I am afraid of black men? You obviously don't know me or you would not dare to state such a ridiculous remark. I can assure you, I am not the least bit insecure or afraid of anything. I wont speak for the others on here, they can do that for themselves, but I am sure most of them feel the same about your stupid statement. You and your condescending snide little/old man remarks are getting annoying to the crazyhorse and shootaway potential. If you have an opinion - fine. But don't insult the rest of us in stating your opinion. I would advise caution in any further opinions you might have and re-think the phrasing before posting. Calling me or many of the guys on here scared little white boys could have very negative results, and I am sure it does not hold well with the various outfitters that frequent this site. You may soon find yourself short of friends. People don't like to be insulted.

And you are wrong - this has everything to do with the Obama administration and his appointees to executive posts. When right wing liberal anti hunters are appointed to the highest level of the executive government, their decisions are what is going to drive that particular government entity-based upon the wishes of the president included. This would not have happened under a Republican President, white or black

If I were you I would retract your ignorant statement and apologize to this community - like a man

Rory

Yeah, I agree; it's a bit ridiculous, though not completely. It's been my experience that there's an inherent fear of black men in a lot of the anti Obama crowd, probably born out of not having any familiarity with black men or the black experience. No all, but some.

That's just been my experience having grown up in an all-white community but later spending a lot of time in the black community.

But my comment was out-of-line and over the top - so I'll apologise for that. I think I just got up on the wrong side of bed today.

But there are a lot of black men who believe what I wrote, and with good reason. I'll leave it at that.

Take it or leave it.

Besides he is neither black or white, just good all American that is maybe highly educated, but not overly street smart at all. And if anybody is racist, it's the president himself. We all heard plenty of his remarks and associations with racist organizations and individuals.

This anti hunting thing is squarely on his shoulders.
This decision was so well planned ahead and so secretive that it smells like the old Soviet Union dealings.
USFW are probably still laughing about this over a cold beer.
Truly a sad state of affairs.
Now I'm gonna hot wire all MT reps on Monday and scream bloody murder
I guess, least I can do.

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
I should think at the very least, SCI would be looking for an injunction. I doubt much will happen over the weekend.

I just committed to Buzz my plan to carry on with my bull hunt. I hate the idea of likely not getting my ivory, but there is at least an outside chance something could break our way. This might be my last, best chance to hunt a bull. If this ban has the intended effect, there may soon be no one left to take me elephant hunting. I leave in a week, wish me luck!

Bravo on your decision Marty. I'm sure Buzz, all those that work for CMS, and the locals that will be chowing down on your Ele appreciate your choice to carry on.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
I'm in same dilemma
Ele bull hunt this year
Thinking going still, but now what about the trophy fees?
I'm having hard time to pay big trophy fee if I cant take my trophy home
Any ideas out there?

I'm willing to bet a small wage, that the good guys will work on some sort of a compromise.....at the end of the day, just remember its not your fault and it's not the operators! The Nat Parks of Zim is not going to give a rats ass and will not compromise with the operator? I hope I'm wrong!!

quote:

Originally posted by Orvar:
This sucks!

Happily, my ivory came into NYC 2 weeks ago, and are now in my possession... Close. No matter what they say about "past years", these guys at JFK are useless jerks.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
Blaming this all on the Obama administration is 100% pure unadulterated bullshit.

Hunters, and especially trophy hunters, have been under attack for at least half a century by the mainstream media.

This administration is not to blame in the least and the constant references to Obama are just another example of insecure little white boys who are afraid of black men.

The references to the Chinese, on the other hand, have considerably more merit.

SteveGI-are you insinuating that I am an insecure little white boy? Or that I am afraid of black men? You obviously don't know me or you would not dare to state such a ridiculous remark. I can assure you, I am not the least bit insecure or afraid of anything. I wont speak for the others on here, they can do that for themselves, but I am sure most of them feel the same about your stupid statement. You and your condescending snide little/old man remarks are getting annoying to the crazyhorse and shootaway potential. If you have an opinion - fine. But don't insult the rest of us in stating your opinion. I would advise caution in any further opinions you might have and re-think the phrasing before posting. Calling me or many of the guys on here scared little white boys could have very negative results, and I am sure it does not hold well with the various outfitters that frequent this site. You may soon find yourself short of friends. People don't like to be insulted.

And you are wrong - this has everything to do with the Obama administration and his appointees to executive posts. When right wing liberal anti hunters are appointed to the highest level of the executive government, their decisions are what is going to drive that particular government entity-based upon the wishes of the president included. This would not have happened under a Republican President, white or black

If I were you I would retract your ignorant statement and apologize to this community - like a man

Rory

Yeah, I agree; it's a bit ridiculous, though not completely. It's been my experience that there's an inherent fear of black men in a lot of the anti Obama crowd, probably born out of not having any familiarity with black men or the black experience. No all, but some.

That's just been my experience having grown up in an all-white community but later spending a lot of time in the black community.

But my comment was out-of-line and over the top - so I'll apologise for that. I think I just got up on the wrong side of bed today.

But there are a lot of black men who believe what I wrote, and with good reason. I'll leave it at that.

Take it or leave it.

I would like to ask a simple question. Do you think there would be a different reaction if this was done by a white administration ? I am certain there would be the exact same reaction.

I'm no fan of Obama & his henchmen but I don't know why people think it's anything to do with him or them.

USF&WS have repeatedly proved themselves to be a law unto themselves & anti hunting for donkey's years - certainly since the late 80s or so (Moz elephant ban being a good example) & there's no doubt elephant poaching is indeed on the increase so it shouldn't be a surprise they've taken the opportunity to stick their meddling fingers in the pie & stir things up............ & what's more, I'll be bloody surprised if they don't do the same thing with lions at the very least.

Further to my previous comment, I'd guess at least part of the reason for the ban is that Zim & Tz have probably failed to deliver a satisfactory management plan or possibly any management plan at all (to USF$WS) in a timely manner....... & that of course then raises the question of why should they have to deliver anything to USF$WS when it should be delivered to CITES.......... which takes us back to USF&WS being a law unto themselves.

No legal action will resolve this situation in 2014. My firm has been working with John Jackson and Conservation Force on trophy seizures, etc. involving USFWS. The USFWS has unfettered and unmitigated discretion and it is not a high enough priority (yet) to garner attention of any type of oversgiht. I agree with Shakari - this is not about Obama. This has been going on for years under Bush and Obama. See my prior post on the polar bear. The US was voted down at CITES on its proposal supported by the animal rights groups. This is embarrassing. Mike Jines, think your question about SCI and DSC needing ot be on top of these developments but I can tell you from first hand experience that USFWS acts with total automony. I am convinced USFWS knew this was coming before the convenetions and not surprised that that the hunting community did not get more of a heads up. This is par for the course.

We are all talking to ourselves here. I will reiterate - time to double down on our committments to Conservation Force, DSC and SCI to fight politically, legally and in the media. Our adversaries are winning the court of public opinion and have taken hold of our USFWS policy making.

Gentlemen this is bad news for all.But it was only a matter of time b4 the US was going to lay down the law.Hope fully no other countries follow and we can buy some time.

Looking ahead as operators in zimbabwe i believe we have to front up and invest back into the Parks and community areas.For example we need to source funding for an annual airial count to help justify our quotas.When was the last time an elephant and buffalo count was done in any of the parks and community areas??? 20 years ago maybe.

I believe this is one of the major factors that US fish and game are concerned about.On what grounds can zimbabwe justify their hunting quotas??

I know some have invested into anti poaching units and working with parks which is a big step in the right direction.

I realise the margins are tight but its up to us as operators to make a plan.

The save Valley Conservancy has had annual airial game counts every year for the last 13 years.Its expensive but certainly justifies quotas.Basically the more information that we can gather on the ground will help us as hunters in the long term.

Once you start collecting this important information it will attract researches and we will build up our own data base.

I hope its not to late.

quote:

Originally posted by RickCap:
Mike Jines, think your question about SCI and DSC needing ot be on top of these developments but I can tell you from first hand experience that USFWS acts with total automony. I am convinced USFWS knew this was coming before the convenetions and not surprised that that the hunting community did not get more of a heads up.

Rick, that just tells me that SCI and other groups are far less effective than they purport to be in Washington. A trade group that cannot even provide good information on what is going on behind the scenes is a trade group that is largely ineffective. And I do not buy that the USFWS is unique among federal agencies. The EPA for example seems to be able to operate with impunity in many cases but information always has a way of leaking out. There are always people and groups within any agency that have sympathies with outside constituencies. Good lobbyists and trade groups work to mine, develop and foster relationships with those persons . . . hell they hire alumni from the agencies to maintain good inside contacts. I fear that SCI and others may spend more time and energy working on photo shoots for the newsletter with Congressmen and the like than walking the halls at the agencies, where the rubber meets the road in most cases.

Mike, I don't necessarily disagree. But EPA gets a helluva lot more attention and pressure from Congress and industry and the courts. USFWS is somewhat unique in that respect. There is little pressure or oversight thus the issues we are dealing with. So we need to change our strategy and approach.

You're exactly right
Mike
They ought to learn from NRA, they are the best in the field when it comes to being ahead of the game
Just boggles my Mind, these agencies have so much power, it's so scary

quote:

Originally posted by RickCap:
Mike, I don't necessarily disagree. But EPA gets a helluva lot more attention and pressure from Congress and industry and the courts. USFWS is somewhat unique in that respect. There is little pressure or oversight thus the issues we are dealing with. So we need to change our strategy and approach.

That tells us something right there -- the fact that they get very little attention or oversight. What House Committee exercises oversight on USFWS? Who is the Chairman of that Committee? Got to be a Republican. When was the last time that Committee dragged them in to explain their policies? Would be some interesting questions friendly Congressmen could ask them about timing, input into the formulation of the policy, impact on conservation, etc. I definitely agree a change in strategy and approach is warranted, but wonder if the groups that are currently involved have the fortitude and moxy to do that.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Rick, that just tells me that SCI and other groups are far less effective than they purport to be in Washington. A trade group that cannot even provide good information on what is going on behind the scenes is a trade group that is largely ineffective. And I do not buy that the USFWS is unique among federal agencies. The EPA for example seems to be able to operate with impunity in many cases but information always has a way of leaking out. There are always people and groups within any agency that have sympathies with outside constituencies. Good lobbyists and trade groups work to mine, develop and foster relationships with those persons . . . hell they hire alumni from the agencies to maintain good inside contacts. I fear that SCI and others may spend more time and energy working on photo shoots for the newsletter with Congressmen and the like than walking the halls at the agencies, where the rubber meets the road in most cases.

Strewth......... something else we agree on as well as books!

That said, I wouldn't have expected them to be able to sway anything because USF&WS have a loooong track record of defying anyone & everyone they choose to, including the US courts....... the JJ & Moz elephant ban being a good example!

Looks like the programs run by USFWS are overseen by the Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife, Oceans and Insular Affairs. That Subcommittee is under the Natural Resources Committee. The Subcommittee chair is John Fleming from Louisiana. The Committee chair is Doc Hastings from Washington. Both are NRA rated “A” members of Congress. Conservation Force is in Metairie, which is not in Fleming’s district but is in Louisiana. Why not call upon Fleming to hold subcommittee hearings on the issue, if not the substance, then certainly the process? Why wouldn't SCI reach out to members in Louisiana and Fleming's district to ask them to write Fleming calling for hearings or sign a petition asking Fleming to call hearings? If not hearings, then what about a letter from Fleming signed by other Subcommittee members asking the service a bunch of pointed questions and demanding that they respond in writing to the committee? If USFWS never gets their chain jerked by Congress, that approves their funding, then of course they will continue to test the limits of their authority.

As I see it, the USF&WS are FAR more interested in politics than in doing the job they were intended to do so would therefore pursue their own agenda & not give a flying f#"k about anything else.

On a broader note.......What I fail to understand is why the US courts don't just make an example & jail the heads of the USF&WS until they comply with court orders such as the JJ & CF cases etc. Do that & they might just then get back to their intended purpose for a change.

I think you are on the right track Mike.

Morons are making decisions at the USFWS; their logic is seriously flawed. For example, they state…

“Sport hunting, as part of a sound management program, can provide benefits to conservation. Yet, given the current situation in Tanzania and what is known of the situation in Zimbabwe for elephants, the Service does not believe that the benefits of sport hunting will be realized. Further, the Service is concerned that additional killing of elephants in both Tanzania and Zimbabwe, even if legal, is not sustainable at this time.”

1. They clearly admit “Sport hunting, …, can provide benefits to conservation…”

So the USFWS wants to stop the benefits of sport hunting such that the monies derived from it are eliminated, thus further de-incentivizing Tanzanians and Zimbabweans from conservation. The locals will conclude, if elephants have no value why have them. USA hunters are the mainstay of sport hunting in Africa.

2. Moreover, “…the Service does not believe that the benefits of sport hunting will be realized.”

How does the USFWS know this? They can’t know this – it’s only opinion. They are looking for an excuse to stop elephant hunting.

3. Finally, “…the Service is concerned that additional killing of elephants in both Tanzania and Zimbabwe, even if legal, is not sustainable at this time.”

Now the greater incentive not to conserve for the economic value of trophy fees will lead to even more poaching. Now that elephants are just so much protein, locals might as well kill them for their ivory and food value. Also, none USA hunters will continue to legally sport hunt them. But, we get punished.

Yes, Obama and his appointed liberal – yet naïve – buddies are making things worse for those of us who enjoy this sport. He has set a tone pervasive in our government - my way or the highway.

Vote in the upcoming elections for more conservative representation. Don’t take it for granted that Obama and his buddies will be gone – work to get out the conservative vote. I am!! Obama and his policies are hurting our country.

We are in the middle of major fight for our hobby and for the future of all wildlife. Elephants are more endangered by this policy than ever.

Guys,
Very disappointing news indeed.
I like Guy Whittal's idea of getting some aerial counts done. This would be a good
first step to lay something down to the USFWS.
Mike's suggestion of lobbying the sub committee is the way to go and should be what
SCI needs to be doing IMO.
We here in OZ have had a TOTAL ban on any ele importation for the last 25 odd years!
It sucks, but we just get on with hunting and enjoy the experience with video/ photos etc.

Don't let this stop you from continuing hunting ele. That would indeed make things a lot worse!
Our Zim friends need our support to continue, let's keep on hunting and deal with the issue along the
way.

I was planning on booking an ele bull hunt for 2016 when my new Westley RIchards double will be completed.
I'm going to book it with the ZIm guys for sure!
Meantime, I'm getting prepared for my double tuskless in AUgust.
Lets not pull out / cancel defer hunts. It's not the answer.

Cheers

Nick

Matt,

My bull was killed in October 2013, so it doesn't sound like this ban will apply to it, but I'm booked again in 2015.

There is a contact function on the Natural Resources Committee's website. I have written them, and would suggest others do the same. I don't know that it will help, but at least I feel like I am doing something. I have also contacted my senators and congresswoman.
Here is the link.
https://naturalresources.house.gov/contact/

Hmmmm... and we were all focused on lions and lion management. Looks like USFWS pulled the old end-around! Worthless lot...

USFWS announcement is expected in the next week. I would not want to bet on the outcome.

Dallas Safari Club awaits lion decision from USFWS
By Conor Harrison on March 27, 2014 in Texas Hunting 2


Anti-hunting activists have petitioned the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to list the African lion as a threatened or endangered species and a decision is expected any day.

Dallas Safari Club officials are hoping for a ruling that favors science, not petitions.

“Political pandering in Washington D.C. won’t help lions,” said Ben Carter, executive director of DSC. “Lions need science-based, practical strategies that fit on-the-ground realities in Africa.”

Any listing under the Endangered Species Act could restrict or ban importations of African lion taxidermy, essentially stopping American hunters — and their money.

Carter says hunting gives game species real, monetary value in third-world countries. If lions are no longer valuable, then landowners, villagers and cattlemen will simply kill them off. Hunting also funds law enforcement needed to check poachers and black-market traffickers.

Carter said, “The precedent is clear: In Africa, when hunting goes away, so does the wildlife.”

Science shows that overharvest of young male lions could reduce long-term populations. In response, DSC in early 2013 began advising lion hunters to self-impose harvest restrictions. DSC defined the ideal huntable male lion as “at least six years of age and not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs.”

Science shows that hunting older male lions has no negative, long-term effect on populations.

More than 70 major safari operators, hunting industry leaders and top conservationists pledged support, and the International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation in April 2013 adopted a position modeled after the DSC policy.

Over time, Carter says, more-selective harvest will help conserve lion populations while keeping the overall conservation and economic benefits of hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
This administration is not to blame in the least and the constant references to Obama are just another example of insecure little white boys who are afraid of black men.

How disingenuous. Obviously intended only to incite and detract from the conversation. If you are suggesting that this has nothing to do with the current administration's policies and political philosophy, black, white or whatever, you must be incredibly naive. I guess you would also believe that the same action would have been taken under a Republican administration? No chance and certainly not in an unexpected and unannounced manner such as this. This has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with politics.

EDITED: Actually the more I think about this, you should be ashamed for even suggesting that criticisms of this policy and the manner and timing of its announcement are in any way race based. That is so far off the mark to be completely disgusting. I am embarrassed for you even making that suggestion.

+1 more

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
USFWS announcement is expected in the next week. I would not want to bet on the outcome.

Dallas Safari Club awaits lion decision from USFWS
By Conor Harrison on March 27, 2014 in Texas Hunting 2


Anti-hunting activists have petitioned the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to list the African lion as a threatened or endangered species and a decision is expected any day.

Dallas Safari Club officials are hoping for a ruling that favors science, not petitions.

“Political pandering in Washington D.C. won’t help lions,” said Ben Carter, executive director of DSC. “Lions need science-based, practical strategies that fit on-the-ground realities in Africa.”

Any listing under the Endangered Species Act could restrict or ban importations of African lion taxidermy, essentially stopping American hunters — and their money.

Carter says hunting gives game species real, monetary value in third-world countries. If lions are no longer valuable, then landowners, villagers and cattlemen will simply kill them off. Hunting also funds law enforcement needed to check poachers and black-market traffickers.

Carter said, “The precedent is clear: In Africa, when hunting goes away, so does the wildlife.”

Science shows that overharvest of young male lions could reduce long-term populations. In response, DSC in early 2013 began advising lion hunters to self-impose harvest restrictions. DSC defined the ideal huntable male lion as “at least six years of age and not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs.”

Science shows that hunting older male lions has no negative, long-term effect on populations.

More than 70 major safari operators, hunting industry leaders and top conservationists pledged support, and the International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation in April 2013 adopted a position modeled after the DSC policy.

Over time, Carter says, more-selective harvest will help conserve lion populations while keeping the overall conservation and economic benefits of hunting.

Mike, I am afraid you are right. Even if the lion is not listed, USFWS could ban import of lions from Zim and Tanzania on the same grounds as the elephant.

We need to take an NRA approach to these attacks. Zero tolerance. Here is a quote from a DSC press release " environmental protection groups have built an entire industry around natural resource policy, using lawsuits and petitions as publicity stunts to solicit donations."

Gentlemen, this is what we need to learn from our advesaries. The difference is that our postion is gact based and supported by science and not a stunt. We are being outsmarted and out spent.

quote:

Originally posted by RickCap:
We are being outsmarted and out spent.

I know that I am preaching to the choir on this one Rick, but money is the key. Money buys access. Money mobilizes grass roots actions. Money gets people's attention. Having facts, passion, etc. is great, but in our system money powers the system. The NRA has organized itself as a political machine first and shooting sports advocate second. SCI is a redheaded step child compared to the NRA.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I'm no fan of Obama & his henchmen but I don't know why people think it's anything to do with him or them.

USF&WS have repeatedly proved themselves to be a law unto themselves & anti hunting for donkey's years - certainly since the late 80s or so (Moz elephant ban being a good example) & there's no doubt elephant poaching is indeed on the increase so it shouldn't be a surprise they've taken the opportunity to stick their meddling fingers in the pie & stir things up............ & what's more, I'll be bloody surprised if they don't do the same thing with lions at the very least.

The USA has changed face 180 degree since Obama has taken office. It might be hard for someone who does not live here to understand...but I hardly recognize the country I wake up in since 2008.

Obama appointed Sally Jewel as SI. USF&W is under the Dept of Interior. When she took office, in her acceptance speech, she told anyone who didn't believe in global warming should resign. Research her a bit. While USF&W may have been going South for a long time...they are now heading down hill like a snowball headed for hell!