quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by RickCap:
We are being outsmarted and out spent.

I know that I am preaching to the choir on this one Rick, but money is the key. Money buys access. Money mobilizes grass roots actions. Money gets people's attention. Having facts, passion, etc. is great, but in our system money powers the system. The NRA has organized itself as a political machine first and shooting sports advocate second. SCI is a redheaded step child compared to the NRA.

Mike, I could not agree more. John Jackson is overworked and underfunded. Our firm has contributed 100 of hours pro bono to these efforts/caauses. What I meant on doubling down on support to Coservation Force etc is $$$.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by RickCap:
We are being outsmarted and out spent.

I know that I am preaching to the choir on this one Rick, but money is the key. Money buys access. Money mobilizes grass roots actions. Money gets people's attention. Having facts, passion, etc. is great, but in our system money powers the system. The NRA has organized itself as a political machine first and shooting sports advocate second. SCI is a redheaded step child compared to the NRA.

Exactly!

When congress was thinking of banning horse slaughter in the US...the American Association of Equine Practitioners put together a delegation to lobby. We were armed with science and facts. We showed them that horse slaughter in the US was humane and well regulated. We showed them that having an outlet for unusable horses was key to the equine industry. We showed them that having a humane destruction system was in the best interest of the horse. Yes...we had all the facts and all the science. A congressman I spoke to personally had this to say: "Lane, y'all sure did a good job showing us all the science and all the facts about this subject...a fine job indeed! But...for every dollar the veterinary and equine industry have put into this...the anti-slaughter faction has put in $10k. Y'all might as well go home...banning horse slaughter is a done deal." And then they banned horse slaughter. And...while many challenges have taken place...now a decade later...horse slaughter is still banned.

Mike is 100% correct! Just as my Dad taught me from a young age...always remember the golden rule...he who has the gold...makes the rules.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
Anyone know who to write, call, email or in any other way bitch and moan about this snap decision and maybe file a lawsuit let me know

Perhaps Mike Jines can advise us of the possibility of a class action lawsuit?

Against the government? No chance. The only way to reverse the situation would be to challenge the rule as being beyond the agency's authority or an abuse of discretion. Both of those are tough arguments to make. And it will take months/years to mount such a challenge. Also the possibility of a court granting any interim relief like a stay of the rule is a virtual pipe dream too. Wish I could paint a prettier picture, but that's the truth of the matter.

Mr. Jines is again painfully correct. I have been involved in a lawsuit against USFWS since 2008 over a legally harvested Polar Bear that can't be imported. Ask me how that's working out.

Jeff

It will NEVER be won in the courtroom. It has to be won in the political arena and in the court of public opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by xtrapshooter:
Assuming a U.S. hunter successfully takes a 2014 TZ or Zim elephant, what happens to the tusks? Do they belong to the hunter or are they the property of the local government? If they belong to the hunter can they be sold in the international ivory market? Could they be donated to conservation "charity" and the hunter receive a tax deduction. Could they be retained by the safari company, sold and the funds used for anti-poaching?

Assuming TZ does not suspend elephant hunting as a result of the US ban any animal which has been shot and paid for by a hunting client is his property.

The only problem with legally taken ivory is the expiry date on the CITES Export which has to be respected and if USFW has banned import you are not going to get a permit to shoot one in TZ anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:
Anyone know who to write, call, email or in any other way bitch and moan about this snap decision and maybe file a lawsuit let me know

Perhaps Mike Jines can advise us of the possibility of a class action lawsuit?

Against the government? No chance. The only way to reverse the situation would be to challenge the rule as being beyond the agency's authority or an abuse of discretion. Both of those are tough arguments to make. And it will take months/years to mount such a challenge. Also the possibility of a court granting any interim relief like a stay of the rule is a virtual pipe dream too. Wish I could paint a prettier picture, but that's the truth of the matter.

Mr. Jines is again painfully correct. I have been involved in a lawsuit against USFWS since 2008 over a legally harvested Polar Bear that can't be imported. Ask me how that's working out.

Jeff

Jeff:

About as well as my attempt to get audited so Uncle Sam can give me my tax refund from two years back. When he owes you money/assets or anything Uncle Sam is very polite but does nothing.

Importing elephant trophies from Zim and Tanzania is done for a long long time.

There is little legal, administrative process, poltical or public opinion stuff to be done.

If one wants to hunt elephants in zim - take lots of pictures of nice old bulls like you are hunting them - up close and personal like biebs has done, shoot a tuskless and get some replica tusks made.

There is a very low probabilty of anyone in Zim ever being able to satisfy usfw.

Watch out for obama admin in last year in office - they will use adminsitrative law and process really well to put their agenda in place. Hunting is not really te main thing on their agenda. More to do with enviornmental policies social policies ect.

Terrible day for some good guys in Zim. Uncle bob and his goons to deal with and now USFW.

Mike

Looks like to me that Chairman Fleming might be a receptive audience to approach regarding concerns over how the USFWS operates and particularly transparency.

Here is a clip from a hearing on March 26, 2014 where Congressman Fleming is criticizing the director of the service for a lack of transparency:

http://fleming.house.gov/videos/?VideoID=Yl8CC7kunMU

Mike , dammit, you are definitely and absolutely on the spot.
Election year is a bummer and I don't think anything will be solved this year
Damn this administration, period.
What the hell is wrong with people...

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
Blaming this all on the Obama administration is 100% pure unadulterated bullshit.

Hunters, and especially trophy hunters, have been under attack for at least half a century by the mainstream media.

This administration is not to blame in the least and the constant references to Obama are just another example of insecure little white boys who are afraid of black men.

The references to the Chinese, on the other hand, have considerably more merit.

You are better than this.

No he's not. That was very a predictable comment from SteveGI.

I just read his "explanation" and now have to admit that I was wrong and you were right.... He is not better than this, this is who he is.

Good stuff there from Mr Fleming(video).I think the Obama administration has mostly all to do with this together with the anti-hunting lobbyists.I am sure if we had more hunters in Government this would not happen.I cant believe why the rebublicans could not get anyone better than that loser Romney as a candidate.When I first saw him I said to myself the rebublicans dont stand a chance.They needed a figure to draw full support and one who will inspire everyone.I wonder if such a decision could be reversed by a powerful reb. goverment? I believe we are doing a good job of conveying our message as hunters as conservationists and of promoting the shooting sports.It seems that this has made some folks very unhappy.I had a feeling back when Gates visited Zim that this was going to lead to more of this crap.We hunters and shooters should not support any business or orgnization that is against us.

I would suppose that SCI is indeed following this thread, as Nelson Freeman from SCI was the one who first posted it. I would also suppose that Mike's numerous references to "SCI and other groups" includes and encompasses DSC. And, I believe that Mike has hit the nail on the head in regards to working with those congressmen, including Mr. Fleming, who heads the appropriate governmental agencies, and who have oversight of the USFWS. In any event, contacting the legal and lobbying arms of DSC and SCI is something that we all should be doing.

It is interesting that this sudden announcement follows so close to President Obama’s Executive Order creating both an Illegal Wildlife Trafficking Task Force and an Advisory Council. With the announcement mentioning it may only last a year, I'd bet money it is a scheme to show a quick task force success.

Let's face it, these sorts of attacks on hunting and the rights of sportsmen are not going to stop. When you look at other organizations that are successful in either pushing an agenda or defending their rights, you will generally find one of two things or both: the ability to mobilize grassroots support quickly and in force and the ability to raise money. For example, think of the NRA. When the Second Amendment comes under attack they are able to electronically engage their members immediately, get people calling and writing Congress and raise money. We need the same ability for hunting rights. A group like DSC is wonderfully positioned to fill this role if they are willing. They have a considerable membership, they have contact information and email lists, they have their online Game Trails medium, etc. With a few mouse clicks, they can contact thousands of members and seek the necessary grassroots support and engagement. I know these sayings are well worn, but in terms of fighting back, if not now, when, and what's the downside? So long as groups like USFWS feel that they can act with impunity they will. Legal challenges eat up money and time and the agencies are rarely intimidated by them. The way to fight back is to send the message, through strength in numbers, that we intend to hold you accountable through the political process. The membership on the Subcommittee for Fisheries, Wildlife, Oceans and Insular Affairs includes ten Republicans and eight Democrats. Two of the Republican members are from Louisiana, one is from Texas, one is from Alaska, one is from Pennsylvania and one is from Alabama. If we cannot get the attention of this group, whose attention can we get?

Outstanding points Mike! I would suppose that SCI can do the same with their membership. But the point is, we all need to get the attention of those serving on these congressional committees and subcommittees. Could you or someone else give us the names and contact information of those that have been mentioned? It sure would be appreciated. Nelson Freeman: Please take note of all of this!

http://naturalresources.house....?SubcommitteeID=5063

https://naturalresources.house.gov/contact/

THe first link is to the subcommittee's site, the second is the contact link for the natural resources committee. The contact button for the subcommittee takes you to the main committee's contact page.
Members of these committees are listed on the sites.

We need to identify the people or organizations that were pushing for the trophy ivory ban.Once you found this you have for a first step identified your enemy.

My thought, and I am open to suggestions and alternatives but simply feel compelled to do something, is that we work to get someone like DSC to support a petition to the Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife, Oceans and Insular Affairs. The petition would be short and sweet and call upon the Subcommittee to hold oversight hearings to look into:

1. The factual basis for the decision to suspend imports and the conclusory statements made in the announcement.
2. The basis for the USFWS’s belief that, notwithstanding the determination by the Conference of the Parties under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) that controlled sport-hunting of elephant in Tanzania and Zimbabwe should be allowed, an import suspension is appropriate.
3. The assessment made by USFWS, if any, of the impact the suspension will have on illegal poaching in Tanzania and Zimbabwe.
4. The assessment made by USFWS, if any, of the impact the loss of funds from sport-hunting in 2014 will have on elephant conservation efforts and on community-based conversation programs in Zimbabwe and Tanzania.
5. The identification of the specific criteria and information that the USFWS intends to rely upon in making a decision to lift or extend the importation ban after 2014.
6. The basis for the timing of the decision by USFWS and in particular why the decision was not announced prior to (i) the major sport-hunting conventions held in the U.S. in January and February when many of the hunts impacted by the suspension were booked, and (ii) the commencement of the sport-hunting season in Zimbabwe.
7. An explanation regarding why the USFWS did not seek public comment or input on the suspension prior the implementation of the suspension.

Whether the Subcommittee elects to hold an oversight hearing or not, the Subcommittee certainly could be prompted to send USFWS a letter demanding responses to the foregoing. One real value I see in doing this is to force the USFWS to go on the record regarding the criteria they intend to use to make the decision to extend the suspension or let it lapse. At least then folks have a target to shoot for. Right now it is sort of like being told you are going to be given a test, but not told what the test is going to be about.

To reiterate, the key is to get a group to take up the banner on this and use their infrastructure to get the petition signed. If what the Subcommittee members hear are scattered emails from a handful of folks expressing disorganized disappointment, it is far to simple to ignore those notes. A petition on the other hand, or letters sent as part of an organized effort, that involves hundreds of people . . . those are tough for Congressmen to ignore, particularly in an election year.

The Subcommittee members can be seen here: http://naturalresources.house....itteeID=5063#Members

I've contacted my states delegation to get into the fight. Power of the purse is our only effective option.

Setting aside the selfish desire to hunt elephants and bring home the trophies, what can we do to stop the poaching? The Selous is supposed to be the model of hunting as conservation in the largest hunting reserve in Africa. It's a unmitigated failure as far as elephants are concerned. What about Zim? We have outfitters here and there fighting the good fight in this modern day Lado, but the elephants are getting their assess kicked. I mean "hunting in National Parks" is actually an unsolvable problem for the hunting community. Clearly these two failures gave USFW a path and excuse to execute our right to bring back trophies. Anyone care to take a bet on the USFW cutting our lion hunting opportunities?
I think we have a 2 front war on our hands. We need to fight The US Gov. while not loosing sight of the bigger problem which is that even the right to import elephant trophies is worthless without viable elephant populations to hunt.

Navaluk got the point to stop the Poaching and force the responsible governments to stop the rampant corruption in their own ranks that could be best done by withholding aid money and sanctions. That should wake them up.

But aid equals big business and big money.

cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
I've contacted my states delegation to get into the fight. Power of the purse is our only effective option.

Setting aside the selfish desire to hunt elephants and bring home the trophies, what can we do to stop the poaching? The Selous is supposed to be the model of hunting as conservation in the largest hunting reserve in Africa. It's a unmitigated failure as far as elephants are concerned. What about Zim? We have outfitters here and there fighting the good fight in this modern day Lado, but the elephants are getting their assess kicked. I mean "hunting in National Parks" is actually an unsolvable problem for the hunting community. Clearly these two failures gave USFW a path and excuse to execute our right to bring back trophies. Anyone care to take a bet on the USFW cutting our lion hunting opportunities?
I think we have a 2 front war on our hands. We need to fight The US Gov. while not loosing sight of the bigger problem which is that even the right to import elephant trophies is worthless without viable elephant populations to hunt.

Mike, your plan is the best option we have. Other than agreeing to it, is there anything I or any of us can do to help make this happen?
I would think both DSC and SCI should be organizing this, and getting petitions out to their membership ASAP.
I like your synopsis, by the way. I have always appreciated the precise use of language.

http://firstforhunters.wordpre...ing-on-may-8th-2014/

The only way to put the pressure on FWS is to come to Washington and make it happen. Please click on he link above to register for SCI's legislative day. The abuses of the FWS will be our constant theme for the day of citizen lobbyists.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Let's face it, these sorts of attacks on hunting and the rights of sportsmen are not going to stop. When you look at other organizations that are successful in either pushing an agenda or defending their rights, you will generally find one of two things or both: the ability to mobilize grassroots support quickly and in force and the ability to raise money. For example, think of the NRA. When the Second Amendment comes under attack they are able to electronically engage their members immediately, get people calling and writing Congress and raise money. We need the same ability for hunting rights. A group like DSC is wonderfully positioned to fill this role if they are willing. They have a considerable membership, they have contact information and email lists, they have their online Game Trails medium, etc. With a few mouse clicks, they can contact thousands of members and seek the necessary grassroots support and engagement. I know these sayings are well worn, but in terms of fighting back, if not now, when, and what's the downside? So long as groups like USFWS feel that they can act with impunity they will. Legal challenges eat up money and time and the agencies are rarely intimidated by them. The way to fight back is to send the message, through strength in numbers, that we intend to hold you accountable through the political process. The membership on the Subcommittee for Fisheries, Wildlife, Oceans and Insular Affairs includes ten Republicans and eight Democrats. Two of the Republican members are from Louisiana, one is from Texas, one is from Alaska, one is from Pennsylvania and one is from Alabama. If we cannot get the attention of this group, whose attention can we get?

Mike,
From my work on the lion...I can tell you that you are 100% correct. Fighting USF&W and other gvt agencies in court is money lost. First...we pay for there defense with taxes and then then the money we use to sue gets very little bang for the buck. Certainly needed in some instances...but generally expensive and ineffective.

I can tell you for a fact as well that there is a certain amount of animosity in the USF&W for certain lawyers who constantly litigate against them. And it does have a certain amount of an antagonistic effect.

They way forward is just as you say...grass roots mobilization of political power.

But...not just politics through lobbying...uniting scientists and the general public with hunting. From talking to virtually EVERY credible lion scientist in the world...I can tell you they are well aware of the fact that hunting provides habitat and habitat loss is the number one factor for wildlife.

Uniting science with hunters, uniting the public with hunters, and uniting politicians with hunters is the way.

Now...the other problem is that not all hunting companies are like CMS, TGTS, and many other good guys who post here. Just look at the Selous for instance...the majority of blocks are TOTALLY left when hunting season is over...virtually unprotected. Dr. Begg told me not to long ago that the ele poaching was so bad in that region that the lion in the Niassa Reserve actually did well the last few years as there were so many poached ele carcasses to feed on.

We have to somehow also work on this. The scientific community hate companies that just pull out and let poaching carry on unchecked. And it is a hard sell to the public when that happens as well.

In ZIM...getting the hunting out of the parks and taking a long look at all the so-called ration hunts is needed.

When I look how effective the NRA is at mobilizing its membership to address threats compared to the current efforts of hunting groups, I just scratch my head and wonder why. I appreciate that such groups are not going to weld the political muscle of the NRA, but I also cannot understand why they would not take a page out of the NRA's playbook and do a better job of mobilizing the membership. They have the electronic infrastructure, they have the membership information and they have the example of the NRA to follow. We just need to make it happen.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
When I look how effective the NRA is at mobilize its membership to address threats compared to the current efforts of hunting groups, I just scratch my head and wonder why. I appreciate that such groups are not going to weld the political muscle of the NRA, but I also cannot understand why they would not take a page out of the NRA's playbook and do a better job of mobilizing the membership. They have the electronic infrastructure, they have the membership information and they have the example of the NRA to follow. We just need to make it happen.

Mike:

I agree with you.

FYI , I just took the NRA president turkey hunting. He discussed some new activity of the NRA related solely to hunting . I am going to make some inquiries about that . Perhaps they can help.

Way to go Larry
I always admired NRA for what they are doing and always thought, why hunting organizations couldn't it their way
Right there the old saying " United we stand, divided we fall " just shows us we need one national organization that will fight for all hunting, period...

They will pick us apart one at the time

Absolutely, the gun rights movement is an example of what hunting organizations need to do.
I have been an email writer to my congress critters for many years on second amendment and other Bill of Rights issues. And, yes, sometimes I’ve used pre-written letters composed by gun rights organizations I belong to. Absolutely, the hunting organizations need to follow these examples , not only that of the NRA, but Gun Owners of America. Their email alerts link me to a website with names and email addresses of the appropriate legislators, with an available pre-written email to sign and send, with or without modification.
This is the way forward for us, and the hunting organization of the future.

I'm still going to hunt trophy elephants in Zim and Tanz, but I'll take many good photos, have the outfitter store the ivory (or maybe sell it to mitigate the trophy costs), and consider having replicas made of the tusks here in the States. Who would know the difference. We can't let this dictatorial administration beat us! AIU

Just remember that ele poaching really is in exponential numbers right now. Any truthful TZ operator will tell you that it is unbelievable how bad it is. And while we fight to keep our ability too hunt...we also need to work to fix the poaching problem itself.

Excerpt of an email that I sent today to an outfitter who works in Zim, and other places, asking for my opinion:

"This USF&WS import closure has no hope of solving the poaching problem. Only the governments of Zimbabwe and Tanzania can solve that problem, but I am afraid that they will not, because of the inflow of Chinese money and the corruption it fuels.

Sport hunting dollars are a drop in the bucket compared to the magnitude of Chinese funded bribery under the present regimes.

Unfortunately, USF&WS is doing the predictable thing, here. I am certain that it will be counterproductive. It will keep US hunters, and their money, out of Zimbabwe and Tanzania, and that can only hurt, not help, the cause. As we know, hunters in the field can operate as a check on poaching activity. And hunting money earned by outfitters and governments can be used to further combat the poachers. Cutting off the flow of that hunting money altogether can only hurt, not help.

My sense is that USF&WS have got it all wrong. Until we somehow manage to reign in the Chinese, on a geopolitical scale, the poaching problem will never be solved, and the elephant and rhino will be doomed. And reigning in the Chinese will not be easy."

This can only get worse.

I am going to check my schedule to see if I can make the SCI event in Washington.

I am hopeful that SCI accomplishes something. However, I also see this as an opportunity for DSC to really establish itself as a force to be reckoned with. Hopefully, they can distinguish themselves . Whoever can mobilize the most members quickly will be a big winner in this as I see it. Surely there must be many politically connected people in DSC.

Gentlemen, I have said it before and I will say it again. We ALL need to quit fighting over stupid childish things. We need to get involved with these organizations and work to protect our heritage. This sudden unforeseen event should serve as a wake up call to all of us.

Yes, I get pissed with SCI routinely. However, they may be our best bet.

I am less interested in which organization distinguishes itself, than that hunters get mobilized. Moreover, trying to educate non-hunters that hunting dollars mean conservation, habitat, and survival for both targeted hunting species, and others as well.

Larry, you are spot on. There is a saying in politics that a crisis is a terrible thing to waste. The actions of the USFWS have presented us with an opportunity. Now is the time for one of the hunting organizations to stand tall and distinguish themselves as the group that can unite hunters and carry the battle to the other side. I am not trying to diminish prior efforts but to fight these battles today using the techniques of the past are destined to failure, that is what has gotten us to this point already. As the NRA's efforts teach us, these are battles that require the coordination and infrastructure an organization can provide. I hope that we will all rise to the occasion.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:


Gentlemen, I have said it before and I will say it again. We ALL need to quit fighting over stupid childish things. We need to get involved with these organizations and work to protect our heritage. This sudden unforeseen event should serve as a wake up call to all of us.

+1

What DSC (of which I am a member) or SCI needs to do is fund some real research - good solid empirical work by economists/development specialist ect on the cost-benefit and economic benefits of hunting in countries like Zim/Tanzania/South Africa. There has to be research and public relations that shows sport hunting as conservation. Tough to do in some African countries with rampant corruption - Zim for one.

The only way to sell safari sport hunting to the general public is show its benefits beyond a mounted dead animal and a trophy given to the guy with the most dead animals.

Just follow what Blackish is doing to Seaworld to realize what the other side can do via public relations.

Lets hope this gets DSC and maybe even SCI rolling to have better over all african hunting public relations.

Elephant hunting ban might be a tough sell - I don't see any republican congressman getting all fired up to defend Zim and Tanzania (Zim in particular) government and their game management versus USFW.

Anyone know how many elephants are imported each year by US hunters ?

Feel bad for the good guys in Zim.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I am going to check my schedule to see if I can make the SCI event in Washington.

I am hopeful that SCI accomplishes something. However, I also see this as an opportunity for DSC to really establish itself as a force to be reckoned with. Hopefully, they can distinguish themselves . Whoever can mobilize the most members quickly will be a big winner in this as I see it. Surely there must be many politically connected people in DSC.

Gentlemen, I have said it before and I will say it again. We ALL need to quit fighting over stupid childish things. We need to get involved with these organizations and work to protect our heritage. This sudden unforeseen event should serve as a wake up call to all of us.

Yes, I get pissed with SCI routinely. However, they may be our best bet.

Larry,

I will go. Better than sitting around whining about it. Just got back from Tallahasee. Can't be any worse.

Jeff

After watching a new Fox News documentary just now about Gibson guitars and their run-in with USF&W over some wood...we should be very wary of this agency.

Anyone who doesn't believe Obama administration doesn't use the USF&W as a hammer should turn on Fox News now...look what they did to Continental Oil of Oklahoma over one dead duck because the administration does not like what Continental is doing with new fracing techniques.

Emailed Gavin Shire and then the House Committee. Borrowed lots of the language from MJines, since it was so well said.

Come on SCI and DSC - that's why we go and spend thousands and thousands at your conventions.

I received a personal email from Nelson Freeman pursuant to a number of questions that I have asked him directly about SCI's strategy for attacking this problem. I have asked him to provide a response to the many issues raised here in this thread and have pointed out that things need to happen sooner than later. Hopefully we will be seeing a response in the near future. He did indicate to me that SCI has been working on this all weekend, including those on their legal staff.

What ele hunts are left for US hunters now? Only Namibia & South Africa, correct?