DanM,
Good one. Yep, just stunt shooting.

I just thought it was odd that I had not heard of anyone using the 50 BMG in Africa. It would seem that the cartridge is certainly up to par but why does it seem that I've never heard of anyone using it. Perhaps the guns are generally too heavy?

It had been used by one or two people (one of whom offers rifles so chambered), but the guns will either be very heavy, or very loud.

No African hunting country that I know permits the importation of semi-auto rifles, so that .50BMG would have to be a single-shot or bolt-action (I don't think anyone makes a pump-action .50BMG).

George

Don't you also need a 30"+ barrel to burn all that powder effectively?

I was in a camp in Zim in 2001 where some hunters from Norway used a 50 BMG. The shot a nice warthog at about 70 yds. They shot the pig in the head and the bullet exited the left ham. When the trackers picked it up alot of the guts fell out. It was the last time they hunted with it on that trip.

Should make a good long-range buff gun...as long as there aren't any other critters behind it.

Other than a "been there, done that" type excuse there's just no need for it. I doubt you'll get any PH to use his shoulder as a rest for one of those.

Besides, who needs a 1000yd elephant rifle that weighs 30 pounds?

Dan

Maybe someone also has seen this... I remember years ago at SCI a video that was playing where someone was shooting cape buffalo with a 50BMG. Nothing was seemed very remarkable... the shots were close and the Buffalo took 3 shots or so to kill. I do not know what kind of ammunition was being used but the exit wounds were also unremarkable/typical of 450-500 class calibers. You could tell by the shit eating grin on the guys face that he really thought this was going to be special... well on two buffalo they just wheeled away in the thick just as they do with many lung shots. The guy kept pausing and on one buffalo shot out in the open the guy just stood there waiting for the beast to drop. I guess he was dissapointed none were one shot kills? The brush was so thick and his large "hunting" party would creep up on the buffalo and it would just wheel away. Anyone remember that video? I dont even recall which vendor was playing it.

It would not be realy practicle to lug one around long distance through the bush ,but experimenting with one would be fun. Years ago on an army exercize we got some medium sized pigs and a dingo with the Browning 50 cal on an armered personal carrier. FRom what we saw ,the bullet just zipped through ,didnt seem to do as much damage as a 458 with expanding bullets would do.
Once I left the army ,I toyed with the idea of getting a 50 cal for a fun gun and to try for pig hunting, but never got around to it.

If you want some real damage then get the SLAP ammo and you will se
You can also get a pyrotechnic tip that explodes that is always nice.
But the 50BMG is not made for hunting Africas game it is made for long range sniping and destruction of airplaines and other stuff with moving parts
I have heard about the 50 BMG necked up to .700 Noe that is a real stopper if you can handle it
Bigger and faster will not compensate for pour shot placement.

Cheers,

Andr�

We made them illegal in Idaho, folks were shooting elk at 2000 yards from the bar ditch on the highways...I consider such a caliber for military use only, and it has no place in a sportsmans camp, that is my opinnion...I still like to do my hunting before the shot...

Ray so sounds like the usual gun law.
A multitude of lawful owners suffer under a new law that has no effect on assholes since they caused the law to be made in the first place.

Same situation as our state incidentally.

Karl.

Being from Idaho myself and having seen firsthand the reasoning for baniing the 50 BMG for hunt I have to agree with Ray on this one. There is no law against owning one. Just for using it for hunting. I know at one point in time there was an attempt being made to differentiate between the 50 BMG and the legitimate 50 cal sporting rounds. I am not sure of what the outcome was.

The big reason that ID adopted the no 50 BMG rule was based on some northern ID boys mounting Barret M82's on the hoods of their rigs in a mount they whipped together and taking pot shots at elk at 1000yd plus distances. This resorted in far more elk injured/gutshot than taken. It was a cruel death for the elk. Two so called hunters in the Ashton, ID area (my home territory) tried the same thing. I saw first hand 3 elk that were put down by hunters to end their misery and turned over to the Fish & Game. No animal deserves that kind of torture. I hate to see that kind of draconian action be taken but I dont know that there were many alternatives.

Dont read something into my statement that isnt there or dare to compare me to those you listed. But I dont see the 50 BMG as being a legitimate hunting round. At least in the lower 48. I also realize that the problems caused by hunting with the 50 are from irresponsible individuals and not sportsmen. Their actions reflect directly on all of us in the hunting community. There is a huge difference in the capabilities between 50 BMG and rounds such as the 505 Gibbs etc.... Classic big bores have properly constructed bulets for them. To the best of myknowledge I am unaware of any suitable BMG bullet for hunting. After you have seen a bull elk with its guts ripped out and wrapped around its legs as it dies slowly over 2 days then you will have a different opinion.

With all respect to Ray and M1Tanker I must disagree with the law in ID. There are people who hunt with a 50BMG because that is what they want to use. It's not a stunt if you treat the gun as any other and shoot within your limits not the rifles. Lets face it a 30-06 is capable of taking elk at over 1000 yds but most shooters are not capable of making the shot plus it takes 3 seconds (I think that�s right) for the bullet to get there. It�s not an ethical shot, using a 50 BMG, 300 win mag or 22-250 doesn�t make it so. Anyone should be able to hunt with whatever rifle he/she chooses provided it can cleanly take the game animal being perused.

Those jackasses shooting off of a rig attached to a vehicle should be stopped but banning the use of the gun is not the way to stop the behavior. From what I know of the incident they broke several hunting laws in Montana by shooting from a vehicle, using it as a rest to support the rifle, failure to track a wounded animal. I would bet there are other laws that were violated as well not to mention the ethical aspect of their lunacy.

My point is that our society has become one that bans the implements of a bad act but not the action itself. Banning the 50BMG does nothing to stop the same thing from happening with a M16 or even a double rifle. It's the actions not the gun that is to blame and that's what needs to be made accountable.

I�ve got a 600 Ok I�m going elk and deer hunting with this year is that a stunt. I don�t think so. I just want to do it and it will do the job. I also have a 50 bmg set up for 1000yd bench rest. I will most likely never take it hunting but if I did I would see nothing wrong with it. I would still impose my range limit (based on my shooting skills and environmental factors). I would behave in no different a manor than if I was carrying a 30-06.

So I see no reason that my freedoms should be limited because of the behavior of a couple of fools.

Rant mode off.

John

BTW: There are hunting style bullets available for the 50BMG and you could always use any .510 caliber "Hunting Bullet" for it anyway.

The whole problem arises from a few individuals who lack ethics. Any hunter with any caliber who does not pratice good ethics puts everyone in a bind. In the case of Idaho you are stuck with the option of doing nothing or attempting to stop their actions. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to legislate ethics. Do you make it illegal to take shots over 300yds? How do you enforce that?There are several states who have caliber mininums to halt the same issue on the other end of the scale. I feel that is a good ethical law to require hunters to use a caliber suitable to the task. A requirement for too much gun is seldom an issue. Personally I am all for allowing hunters to choose their caliber of choice even if it is a 50 BMG. But at the same time ethically and morally I cant stand idly by and allow those without ethics to maim, injure, wound and destroy our wildlife resources indiscriminantly. (spelling?) The incidents that led up to the law were not about 1 or 2 wounded elk but about a couple hundred in a fairly small region. That just isnt acceptable and requires action.

You make the perfect point hunters knowing their limits. That is the key to the whole thing. There are those who dont respect their own limits and we all pay the price. I am not aware of a better solution to the probem than the action Idaho took. It was not a choice they took lightly or wanted to make. But they didnt see any other way to stop the nonsense. And yes they broke a whole passel pf laws as you mentioned in your reply. I know that the 2 who were apprehended in the Ashton area lost vehicles, rifles, hunting rights and a huge fines and jail time. As well they should have. I am not sure of the pnalties for the guys up north.

I have noticed one thing about several 50 BMG owners (please dont attach this to all). A lot tend to think it is a "cool thing" to own and shoot the big 50. They have developed the attitude that it can kill anything at any range and they take those shots. From my experience most hunters who own the big bore hunting rigs tend to be a more responsible bunch and wouldnt dream of taking a shot that they or their rifle wasnt capable of.

And I wish you the best hunting with your 600 OK and cant wait to hear the details of the hunt.

With tongue firmly in cheek and multiple flame suits on, I would like to know if someone uses the 203mm howitzer for hunting anywhere in the world?

Not pulling anyone's leg - just a joke and sorry if I end up offending anyone. That is not what I intend at all.

From a VERY inexperienced hunter to the experts here,

Good hunting!

IMO those who shoot elk and deer with a 50 BMG should be stringhaulter and gilflurted...and I am glad the sportsman of Idaho demanded a stop to it..Got a problem with that then hunt somewhere else is our attitude toward that.....

I suppose some here would allow hunting with a 20 MM, bazooka or rocket launcher, and then call us Clintonites for passing such a law, but we feel like we have the right to govern ourselves and that majority rules and we also feel like a hunting rifle should be one that can be carried on ones person for a 10 hour day in our Idaho wilderness. It has to stop somewhere and the 50 BMG seems to be the best place in our books..

We also put a stop to those scoped, primer fired, closed action muzzle loaders that anyone could kill an elk in the rutting season with...We define it as a primitive hunt for primitive rifles only, no scopes either...

I realize that we all have a different approach to what is acceptable and what is not. Some hate any kind of a fenced hunt, I on the other hand have no problem with it as long as its a big place, I have no problem with bear baiting although I personally do not hunt over baits, I like to trap and many folks abhore that...The only way to keep all these things in some kind of order is laws, so those of you who compare us to Hillery and thugs remember that your rights stop where our chins begin. Its not gun control is sportsmanship control..Some of us demand it and we will pass a law against using a flamethrower if we catch you hunting with one.

A long time ago, I used a 105 mm 'rifle' on a meadow lion, at Hunter Liget. The animal turned on us, and charged, at a distance of about 10 miles. The 37 pounds of high explosive, going out at about 2900 fps, proved effective, and the kill was immediate.

Penetration, entrance and exit wound, all, appeared sufficent to insure a quick and effective kill.

However, meat damage was total.

I do think the Abrahms tank would have provided sufficent protection against a charge, and attack, but my commander
did not want to take a chance with a valuable, piece of armour.

s
PS: We did have the option of using a Browning A2 50 caliber fully automatic weapon, also mounted on same M-60 tank. The consensus was the 50 caliber BMG was insufficent
for Meadow Lions, and the choice was made to use the 105mm.

We have, in the past, used the A2 to turn Meadow Lions, and discourage a charge. We find the full auto stream of tracers, armour piercing, and anti-personnel rounds adequate
to create a safe zone around us. When surrounded, we have had to resort to multiple firing of the 105, A2, and the M-60 that also came on the same platform. This combination has proven effective against all such Meadow Lion attacks, were sufficent area is present to see them coming.

I would like the chance to try these tactics in Zimbabwae,
and see if they are likewise effective on certain governmental entities.

Nice tree "rifle" battery

Quote:

---

105, A2, and the M-60

---

Cheers,

Andr�

Wasn't Dan Lilja doing that sort of stuff to show off his barrels? I seemed to remember that he shot a unwounded elk at something like 1100 yards. I guess to some guys that would make you want to buy his barrels to others it would make you want to not buy his barrels. I'm with the ones that would not like the idea of shooting elk at that range with anything. Unwounded elk. FNMauser

Ray,
You say it so much better than I ever could. Thanks.

Well said, Ray. That pretty well sums it up for me too. I have nothing against people owning and shooting a 50 BMG rifle. I'm a proud member of the NRA. I'm against more gun control laws. But, I just don't think the 50 BMG belongs in the hunting fields. As an example of regulating what's acceptable for hunting or not, we don't allow the use of punt guns any longer for hunting ducks. I don't hear anyone complaining about that.



There seems to be a current fad for extreme long range shooting for hunting. Lots of talk and magazine articles about it. Jarret's Beanfield rifles probably helped start the trend. But, too many people think they can buy expertise, via some fancy equipment purchase, but they never stop to think that it also requires a lot of training and practice to be able to shoot and hit at long range. IMHO, most shooters that aspire to be long range shots are not willing to commit to the amount of training and practice required to become proficient at it. No, I'm not a long range rifleman and I don't claim to be. I've also never hunted Elk which always seem to be the topic of hunting at long range.



There are target competitions and courses of fire for shooting at 600 to 1000 yards. That's fine and they contribute greatly to the shooting sports. But I think the long range shooting belongs there and not in the hunting fields. Now, if some one is using a Beanfield-type rifle and is confident in their ability to make a clean kill at 400 or 500 yards, then fine. More power to them. But using a 50 BMG to hunt Elk at 1000+ yards? Well, as Ray said, the line has to be drawn somewhere.



Just my two cents worth. Some will agree with me and some won't. That's fine. I'm just expressing my opinion. No flames please.



-Bob F.

Speaking of ethics, the difference between attempting a shot at an elk at 1000 yards with a .50 BMG and at 500 yards with a .300 Win/HH/RUM would be... what?

Maybe the difference is that it will take you 2x as long to get to the place where the animal was standing + you are more likely to miss the exact area too.

I have owned and hunted with a long range weapon, .338 Lapua magnum, a Sako TRG 42 with 5,5-22x56NXS, and I am telling you this there is a big difference in a shot at 500 meters and a +1000 meter shot... BIG difference. Not just the fact that wind and other factors will have twice the effect. But very few people can hit with the precision that is required for hunting at +1000 meters.
If people want to hunt at long distance then fine by me. I stopped doing it because it took the sport out of the hunt for me. It was more precision trophy harvesting then hunting. Now I like to get close REAL close. The feeling of stalking is just the best.
If one wants to hunt long range then there is plenty of calibers available and one does not need a military weapon/calibre to do it.
Remember that sniping is NOT hunting. Sniping is an unpleasant job that needs to be done by specially trained professionals. They can not be compared to people that bought the gun and went to the range allot.
JMO

Cheers,

Andr�

Since controlled-feed mechanisms were designed for military rifle use and give their users an unfair advantage...

Are such rifles non-sporting and should be banned for sport hunting ?

"The whole problem arises from a few individuals who lack ethics."

Yes! Government officals that create laws based on extreme cases, pandering to a liberal media, creating outrage in the populace. (I)Socrates call it mob rule.;-)

The problem is a government and officals, that use extreme cases to create laws governing the majority, rather then the few that use them in stupid, or idiotic ways.

Got guys shooting off cars with 50's? Didn't we have a guy around here that could make such shots using another long range caliber? Fine. Ban shooting off cars.

Diane Feinstein was a couple blocks away from a guy that machine gunned an office building. Was it the gun that did it? NO!!!. But, she pushes through a law that makes owning my own government's military battle rifles illegal.

Seems to me a bunch of scum ran airplanes into the world trade center recently, killing not 30, but 5000 people.
Why isn't Diane trying to ban airplanes?

When we allow idiots to create laws, due to a few extreme instances, or occurances, we end up with fucked up laws, and society.

While I find the requirements of a 50 caliber rifle a limiting factor in using it to hunt, I see no reason to ban the rifle, or caliber. Many here have said when you are among them, nothing is enough gun. Others here have created
sporting rifles that have similar ballistics to the 50 BMG, but in a more efficent package, not designed for a 38 inch barrel. More power to them. In Kalifornia, Rob's creation is illegal, since the caliber is to large, and THAT is really fucked up.

s

Man is ruled by laws, not all laws are bad otherwise rape, murder, kidnapping and the use of 50 BMG on game would be legal!

Hammer,
I fail to see any correlation with your post and the subject??

Surely the logic that bans the 50 BMG would also mean a heavy barrel 338/378 with 300 grain Sierras should be banned and perhaps a 300 Ultra with 240 grain Sierras.

Mike

There is no gun ban involved here and no attempt in any way at gun control. OWnership or shooting of the 50 has been in no way diminished. It jst cant be used for hunting in Idaho. It is simply a step taken to practice smart wildlife management. And protect the game from dim witted individuals. As any person in this forum knows there are all kinds of laws on the books because of what a few indiviuals have done in the past. It is because of these people that we all pay the price. If everyone acted responsibly all the time we would have no need for any type of laws. But the world doesnt wok that way.

I dont hear anyone complaining about legal mininum calibers in Africa. Why do they do it? Simply to protect the wildlife and the people from individuals who would be dumb enough to shoot a cape buff with a 243. The same thing applies with the 50 and elk in ID. It is to protect game from being wounded by idiots who lack the skills to be a true hunter. Plain and simple protection of our game animals from incompetence.

If you dont like it dont hunt in Idaho. I support it for the same reasons I support legal mininum calibers on dangerous game. For those of you who have forgotten: we as the sportsman of the world have been given the responsibility and stewardship of our world and all its resources. That includes all the wildlife. We are responsible to God and our children for what actions we take to preserve our world. That includes responsible management programs. If it hadnt of been for good game management this whole forum wouldnt exhist because African game would most likely be non-exhistant now.

"It was more precision trophy harvesting then hunting. Now I like to get close REAL close. The feeling of stalking is just the best."

Amen, Mr. D.!

.

Jeez Mike,
Africa has laws stating you can not shoot game with anything lighter than a 9.3x62 with hot handload or a 375 is minimum in most countries..Does not Australia have any hunting laws by which your obligated to abide by. Laws duly passed by the citizens of your fine country.

All states have hunting laws regarding caliber, most do not allow the use of rimfires on big game or anything less than a 6mm...although I have killed many deer and antelope in Mexico with a 22 rimfire and its capable as is the 50 BMG.

No state allows the use of bazookas, flamethrowers, 155 Howwitzers, and many have and are banning the BMG round as folks keep trying to use it.....Its has to stop somewhere.

Should we drop all our game laws to make the militant faction happy...Get rid of all the rules...let anarchy reign..

Hmmmmmmm, I might go for that until all the liberal democrats met with the supreme sanction ...

The object of the excercise is HUNTING not simply the wanton killing of animals !

You do not even need a gun to go hunting. What about having all rifles limited to open sights and a maximum range for legal shooting of 50 yards?

Again, the logic behind the banning of the 50 BMG for use in hunting must surely apply to a heavy barrel 300 Ultra, 30/378, 338 Lapua and 338/378. In fact, it sure apply with eaven great force since those calibre/rifles are more more readily obtainable by the average shooter.

Mike

All I can say is, horsepower alone does not a dangerous game rifle or cartridge make..........

AD

Even in California, possession and target use of the 50BMG is perfectly legal. Personally I wouldn't want to do it but it's o.k. with me if someone wants to blow away rocks in the desert over in the next time zone. However, IMO, using a Browning 50 on game seems similar to using dynamite on fish. The latter is highly illegal and I can't imagine anyone on this forum who thinks it shouldn't be. When out after fish I either try to get one stupider-than-the-rest to take my bait or I will try to go down after it. BTW, spearguns are pretty useless at more than 20 feet. That's hunting! I'm with Ray & Co., sniping isn't.