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posted 15 February 2016 09:58 Hide Post

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Originally posted by Venture South:

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For those who say a cat does not have a fair chance to escape a pack of hounds, I say they haven't hunted mountain lions on dry ground in our rough canyon country very much. It sometimes can be ridiculously easy, especially with snow, but nearly always the cats have all the advantage.



Well said.
I think that in many cases hunting with hounds is judged by people that have no experience of the practice they are supposedly qualified to condemn.
What a sad state of affairs



Ian,

No one here is condemning the practise outright but there are wide ranging differences of opinion. Quite a few African countries do not allow the method and there are many country to country variables.

Andrew

I was not referencing this forum specifically. But as can be seen in countries like the UK the houndsmen have been targeted by an uninformed mob.

If people were actually trying to form their own opinions rather than just doing whats popular we wouldnt have groups of Antis making money off of emotional blackmail and hysteria mongering. In a just society the "Anti" would be drawn and quartered for inciting violence and causing unnecessary dispute.

quote:

Quite a few African countries do not allow the method and there are many country to country variables.

Of all the African countries where hunting is permitted, several (2 maybe 3) allow the hunting of Leopard with hounds and if I am correct, only on private land.
The countries which do not entertain the practice must have considered it contrary to the rules of "fair chase" or is it indeed fair chase?

I think what plays a very important role is the way you grew up in hunting. Over years you form values for yourself and you hunt according to that, that said it does not mean another persons values are wrong, as long as it is not against the law.

Being in the hunting industry I hunt with clients and I do my own personal hunts. When I do a personal hunt I set my standards according to the way I want to hunt, but when I hunt with a client I cannot force my client to follow my way of hunting, as long as it is legal he/she can tell me how they want to hunt. I do not hunt from a vehicle, but if the client wants to do it and it is legal I cannot refuse them to do so.

It is also true about driven hunts that is practised in Europe and in the Karoo, that is fine with me but I will not participate in a driven hunt in Limpopo which is bushveld.

Hunting of animals that appears in the TOPS list with dogs is in anyway illegal in RSA except for following up purposes, unless this was changed, but I don't think so

quote:

Hunting with dogs is in anyway illegal in RSA except for following up purposes, unless this was changed, but I don't think so

Jaco, its irresponsible to make sweeping statements when you clearly dont know what you are talking about.

If you dont like it then dont do it.

http://www.phasa.co.za/about-p...icies-positions.html

PHASA policy on hunting of leopards over hounds (adopted at the PHASA AGM on 16 November 2011)
• PHASA supports the hunting of leopards over hounds, within the governance compliance structure of the Sub-Saharan Houndsmen Association.

http://www.africahunting.com/t...rd-with-hounds.2668/



1. Is hunting Leopard with hounds legal?
The answer to this is simple. In South Africa, the Act is very clear. It is only illegal (outside of the Parks Estate) if you do not have the landowner’s permission. In the same way as taking your Pointers onto somebody’s farm to shoot some guinea.
Answer - yes.



Hunting Leopard with Hounds
The Only Sporting Way to Hunt Leopard?

THE QUESTION
The article by a well liked and respected colleague Charl Grobbelaar in the last African Hunter, was an interesting and balanced review of cat baiting as a method of hunting. However, he did comment that “... I cannot agree with the use of dogs to hunt leopard, unless, perhaps it is to hunt a wounded cat..” Which raised a debate that I have been wanting to initiate for some time in some forum other than one of the Sports Clubs.

Our safari company has conducted a number of successful and unsuccessful Leopard Hunts in Southern Africa with Hounds over the past couple of years, and our activities have been the subject of a number of lively discussions in the Sports Clubs. Basically it is a new thing in Southern Africa, that very few of our fraternity know anything about, and most know nothing about, and worse haven’t bothered to find out about before passing judgement.

We are still on a learning curve on this one that is exponential, our success rate has not been 100%, but we’re definitely getting better at it and aim for it. I can write only of our experiences with it. There are other packs of hounds used and others who have done it. They may have other experiences. I am a Professional Hunter. I am not a person who hunts for sport. The only hunting I do is professionally. My clients are the sportsmen. However, I am a very strong advocate of sport hunting, because I am deeply committed to conservation. I know unequivocally that the revenues from sport hunting are absolutely crucial for wildlife to survive in Africa, particularly in areas where wildlife densities are marginal outside Parks, i.e. the bulk of Africa.

Whenever faced with some issue to do with our Professional hunting which raises issues of “ethics”, I have a few questions I ask myself, and if the answers are yes to all of them, I feel comfortable about it and proceed.

1. Is it legal?
This is straightforward. The law in most cases is clear. For example shooting a lion on the wrong side of a National Park boundary is illegal. Simple.

2. Is it good for the game?
Obviously hunting an animal is not good for that individual, but is for the greater wildlife population and in particular that population of the species being hunted affected negatively overall? Or does it in fact benefit positively? From the wildlife’s point of view - does it serve the common good - “the good of the game”? For example, deliberately shooting young female leopard is probably not good for the game.

This one question I personally rank very high. It’s the reason I can justify my profession to myself and it is the one that is most often forgotten in the current sport hunting ethics debates. As an example for viable safari hunting purposes, trophy quality leopard on most cattle ranches can only be shot at night with a spotlight off a bait (unethical!). Without the revenue from which many farmers in the bad old days poisoned and trapped hundreds indiscriminately. There are vast areas of prime leopard habitat in the lowveld, for example, that have now been consolidated with thriving leopard populations due to employment of this technique. This leopard population would be severely prejudiced if arrogance on the part of some Rupert in the Mathaiga Club stopped us from doing it, as wildlife conservationists we cannot allow this.

3. Is it Humane?
Sport hunting is not really a humane sport - full stop. We inflict pain on animals. However, once we have justified sport hunting per se from other perspectives, we are obligated to be as humane as possible and get the killing done quickly and efficiently. To me this particularly applies to coaching your client’s shooting (where necessary), setting up his shot so it falls within his ability and skill, making sure we’re all using the right weapons and ammo for the task at hand and backing up where necessary. For example, telling a client with poor eyesight and marksmanship to shoot an elephant at 200 yards with his .375 while I’m standing there with my .458, though legal, is not humane.

4. Is it Sporting?
This is best answered by the sportsmen (in our case the clients), but it is such a challenge that it requires above average hunting skills, physical and mental fitness - I think so. If it is also dangerous, even more so. For instance, could a six year old with five minutes coaching do it? For me, potting blesbuck in a fenced off paddock from a truck is not sporting. Anybody could do it.

The hounds have to totally ignore other game, particularly antelope, or the farmers won’t contract them in.

5. Can I sleep at night?
By this I mean, is this something that is going to eat at me later, or something that I would have a problem standing up in a roomful of my peers and defending? For example, shooting someone’s tame lion in a cage and then accepting the Trophy for Biggest Lion at the awards Ball for it, would worry me.

BACKGROUND
So, is hunting Leopard with Hounds unsporting or unethical? To evaluate that question using the approach outlined above, we need some background about what it is and how it’s done.

We started using the hounds for three different reasons:
* to be able to sustainably utilise, with some fair chance of success, big highly educated calf-killing leopard, for whom ‘bait and blinds’ hunting have a success rate so low as to make it commercially unviable;
* to be able to utilise areas where cattle breeding is the predominant land use and hence the presence of leopard is financially detrimental to the landowner and hence the leopard are subject to unsustainable persecution;
* as an alternative to traditional ‘baits and blinds’ for safari clients who have taken leopard before and want another, but are not particularly enamoured with the prospect of spending another 100 hours or so, painfully cramped, watching pieces of meat rot.

The Hounds
It is extremely important to understand a little about the hounds that we use. Many of us have, when faced with a gut shot leopard in the ilala thickets, nipped down to the local village and picked up a truckload of Tsholotsho Terriers to help follow and act as early warning. We’ve watched them chase a kudu and hare, cover up difficult spoor, cock their legs on ours, and every now and then solicit a snarl that warns us about the direction of an impending charge.

The specialised pack of hounds we work with are a very different kettle of fish. They have been bred from stock originating in the U.S. and trained on a daily basis in Africa, for over 25 years. Their predecessors were Blue Ticks, Walkers and Treeing Hounds. They were developed originally for controlling Caracal and Jackal on goat and sheep farms in the Eastern Cape. Subsequently they were further developed to operate in areas where game farming has become very important. Our experience is that when we put the lead dogs on a fresh leopard track they stay with it, without exception, and the rest of the pack follows them. I have watched klipspringer, impala, kudu and warthog get out of their way without soliciting so much as a glance from any of the hounds.

However, I have seen a young dog on a couple of occasions get sidetracked by a hot honey badger or civet scent, but both times he quickly realised the error of his ways when he heard the lead dogs up ahead yodelling for backup, and no harm was done.

Hunting with the Hounds These hounds can be worked in broad terms in two different ways:
a) Free ranging:
This is where the hounds are let loose in an area where the quarry is suspected to be, and they get out there and find it. This method works for the jackal in the Eastern Cape, but should in my opinion, under no circumstances whatsoever, be employed on leopard, because it is non- selective. Simply put, the hounds could pick up females this way. There is at least one instance I know of where a pack was brought into this country and used this way for ‘vermin’ control. To any wildlife conservationist this is a serious sin and this method should not be employed.

b) Selective tracking:
This then is the method to be employed when sport hunting leopard with hounds. A fresh track of the intended leopard is located and the lead dog called Red Wing, is started on it on a leash.

When we are comfortable she is following the right scent by visual verification of the spoor, she is then released and as she warms up the number two and three dogs (called Gold and Pine), who are on leashes, are untied to assist. Once the hounds flush up the leopard, which can be heard by the tone of their bugle, the rest of the pack (most of whom who are sons and daughters, not unlike a pack of wild dog or hyena) is released and the chase commences in earnest.

When used intelligently, hunting with these hounds is probably more selective than ‘bait and blinds’ at night. Who, honestly, can tell male from female correctly at night with a red light at 70 metres, ten times out of ten? With the hounds you have the advantage of visually confirming the cat by spoor size all the way in, and then actually eyeballing him in daylight. This is not to say the mistaken shooting of females is not going to happen. It hasn’t happened with us yet, touch wood, but we reckon the number of mistakes will be less than with ‘bait and blinds’ at night on ranches. We carefully avoid male leopards with a female in attendance, to avoid a SNAFU. But, interestingly, in at least two cases after the hunt was completed, we found there had been a female in attendance, but the hounds had stuck with the male. Probably because he smells more and is more inclined to stand and fight than to slip away like females and small males do.

There is a factor to this kind of hunt that I was previously unfamiliar with, which is hard to explain, but which anybody who has hunted with good dogs will understand well. This is the plain, simple joy of watching some well trained, highly skilled hunting dogs at work. People who have hunted birds with a pair of good Pointers will often tell you that it is as much fun just watching the dogs work and hunt, as actually shooting the birds. The same is definitely the case with these hounds. They are fantastic to watch and enhance the thrill of the sport.

I have had eyebrows raised by colleagues because of ‘the poor bloody dogs’. In actual fact once you’ve seen these hounds hunt, it can be very easily construed that to not let them hunt is the more cruel option. They love to hunt. We’ve all seen our favourite Lab’s reaction when we pickup the shotgun and whistle for him to get in the truck. These hounds make that Lab look miserable. They are exceptionally fit, strong and quick, at close quarters they know intimately a leopard’s “reach”.

After a typical hunt the hounds usually only have a couple of scratches between them. Indeed none have ever needed veterinary attention, certainly while I’ve been there. The pack we hunt with has had only one fatality and no cases requiring veterinary attention. Indeed the houndsmen, many of us have seen Buck Rogers’ video, have received a more serious mauling than any of the dogs.

The one fatality was where a dog was killed on one of our hunts. The hounds have a couple of Jack Russells that run with them in South Africa, trained to get in the holes to flush out the jackal that go down them. Last year, working with the problem of leopard holing up in caves, we tried out a couple of the Jack Russells. The one was a young, over enthusiastic male called Fly, sadly he was killed on his very first encounter with a leopard. The houndsmen, were quite clearly extremely distressed, actually one of them nearly got mauled trying to rescue Fly. To me, as a dog owner whose dogs sleep on our bed, they quite clearly love their dogs and they are not cruel to them in any way. Interestingly, the other Jack Russell, a bitch called Holy, is now an experienced ace. She has perfected the technique of going into the caves over the top of Leopard and then working them from behind. She drives a cat 20 times her size out of the cave like a champagne cork. When you hear Holy yapping in the cave, take your safety catch off.

The Areas
In my mind the areas best suited to using these hounds for Leopard are commercial farming areas where leopard occur, but traditional Leopard/Plains game safari packages are marginal or don’t work. Usually because the leopard are too educated to make ‘bait and blind’ hunting successful enough to be commercially viable, and also plains game is too scarce because of intensive cattle ranching and poor wildlife management.

By using the hound hunts in these areas, we are adding a new revenue stream for the landowners to improve their viability and promote wildlife (particularly Leopard) conservation - CAMPFIRE for commercial farmers. Usually these areas are managed predominantly for cattle ranching, where breeding and hence calves and calf killing are a significant factor.

The successful hunting of a big male leopard with hounds hinges on finding his very fresh track very early in the morning.

The Leopard
The competition between cats and dogs is as old as hunting. We know that leopard and lion (cats) have co- evolved in fierce and often deadly competition with hyena (dogs) since the Pleistocene. Anybody who has spent time watching the hassling that leopard receive from hyena, often very aggressive and even deadly for young cats, knows that this is just part of what a leopard learns to handle.

In the farms where we operate most of the herdsmen are actually allowed dogs by the landowner specifically to do just this, hassle the leopard whenever he kills a calf. While I’m sure this is distressing, it is a very routine annoyance to a leopard who has been around for a few years. I get the impression on a hunt that a big male leopard realises the hounds can’t kill him, he merely has to cover his tail and keep them at arms length, until he can figure out how to escape.

The big male leopard in these sort of areas are usually habitual calf- killers and hence promote a very strong case, from the cattle farmers’ perspective, for persecution of the species as a whole. The big plus is that these calf-killers are usually big and hence are in demand by our safari hunting clientele as excellent trophies.

The Hunt
The successful hunting of a big male leopard with hounds hinges on finding his very fresh track very early in the morning. This is often easier said than done, as you have only about two/three hours. Bear in mind, this is usually also in areas where leopard densities are low, even though the population overall may be large. To make this happen involves a huge amount of plain old hard work in scouting the area and learning the leopard territories.

Part of the preparation also involves ensuring, to the best of our abilities, a ‘clean kill’. The killing at the end has to be done efficiently and humanely. The clients we book for these hunts are not first timers and they practise quick, short range free hand shooting.

The question of the right tool for the job is also addressed. A scoped high velocity rifle is not ideal because of reduced visibility from the scope and over-penetration by the bullet, so endangering dogs and us from a ricochet off the rocks. A shotgun is not really ideal either because we don’t want to also hit Red Wing with a pellet or two. On the odd occasion too a shot presents itself at 30-40 yards or so, which is stretching a shotgun for a leopard.

So we arm them with a quick pointing, fast reloading, low velocity, heavy calibre rifle. My preference is a Marlin lever action .45-70, loaded with thin jacketed 400 grain softs doing about 1700 fps, customised with an extended magazine tube, fibreglass stock, peep rear sight and a foresight only slightly smaller than a golf ball. Leopard hit with a couple of shots from this mother are dead very quickly.

This hunt is more exciting than the ‘bait and blind hunting’ by a factor of about ten times. Closing in for a shot with a very angry, about to charge, 80kg leopard in thick stuff when compared to sniping an unsuspecting cat off a tree limb is like goldfish andtigerfish. It has been billed by one American booking agent, Bruce Grant, who has done it, as “...the most exciting hunt on earth today...” I don’t think he’s exaggerating too much either.

When it comes to the actual hunt, we try to get a cat from a fresh track off a bait, a natural kill (usually a calf) or a road down which he has walked in the pre-dawn.

Remember, in the areas in which we operate these hunts, getting a big male on bait and keeping him ‘on’ until the client and hounds arrive is not an option. So to get him off a bait, we have to visit the bait that he ‘hits and runs’, early on the morning he does it.

Typically, before we do our Leopard with Hounds hunt, we spend a week or two intensively scouting the area, figuring out the big males patterns (if there is such a thing). Then we set up a driveable circuit through what we figure to be the most productive areas. Along this route, we will swing up to 30 baits, usually cattle foetuses from one of the local abattoirs, and link them with drags.

Once the safari commences, the daily M.O. then is that just before dawn the P.H., sport hunter, houndsmen and mutts hit the road. They try to visit as many of the baits as possible before the sun heats up, slowly enough to watch the roads for the track of a big cat just out patrolling. If nothing is found, the rest of the day is spent scouting, baiting and dragging, in the old fashioned way.

Once a track is found, preferably off a bait, but often off the road, it is carefully measured to make sure it is a big male (a Madison and half a filter plus), scouted to ensure there are no females with him, then aged - early hours of the morning versus previous evening.

At this point, out comes Red Wing on a leash, if she can smell what we can see, she starts quivering, everybody loads up and we’re off.

Picture a scene just after dawn on a crisp July morning as the kopjes are turning yellow, running along behind these hounds. Watching the lead dogs struggle with a difficult scent from a tricky leopard, who is experienced in eluding hyaena and jackal and is using the rocks to his maximum benefit, while the sun is slowly climbing and conditions are warming unfavourably. Watching the hounds castin circles for a lost spoor, yodel to their buddies when they relocate and then work in pairs and teams to effect maximum ground coverage. Then add to this scene suddenly, a background of roaring and snarling as the leopard comes to bay in thick bush, on a steep sided kopje dotted with cave entrances, and you run in for a shot.

You’d have to be a cold character indeed not to get a pretty significant adrenaline rush from this experience.

Conclusion
So, with this background, now we can evaluate Hunting Leopard with Hounds as an ‘ethical’ and ‘sporting’ method to hunt by answering the questions posed at the beginning.

The hounds really seem to love it, their injuries are negligible and fatalities rare.

1. Is hunting Leopard with hounds legal?
The answer to this is simple. In South Africa, the Act is very clear. It is only illegal (outside of the Parks Estate) if you do not have the landowner’s permission. In the same way as taking your Pointers onto somebody’s farm to shoot some guinea.
Answer - yes.

2. Is hunting Leopard with hounds ‘good for the game’?
Again simple. We are promoting leopard conservation in areas where they are otherwise heavily persecuted. We are not disturbing the other game and it is probably more selective than ‘bait and blind’ hunting.
Answer - yes.

3. Is hunting Leopard with hounds ‘humane’?
The answer to this question is a little more complicated: The hounds really seem to love it, their injuries are negligible and fatalities rare.

The leopard definitely doesn’t like it, but is probably also pretty used to the kind of trauma involved, a clean kill is more assured and a wounded and lost result is definitely going to be very rare with this hunt.

The houndsmen too have learnt how not to put their heads into caves already occupied by ‘spotty’.

So, is it humane? If sportsmen can justify bird hunting or catching a fish, this too can definitely be justified. Who amongst us can know the terror of a covey of one-pound francolin when a 70 lb German Shorthair sticks his muzzle in your face while you are trying to hide in a grass tuft. Or the pain a bass feels when you strike a pair of 2/0 steel treble hooks through his palate and jaw as hard as you can and then drag him into your boat.

Are leopard receiving worse treatment?
No.
So the answer to this question - yes.

4. Is it Sporting to hunt Leopard with hounds?
It tests to the maximum our tracking and shooting skills; it requires skill in baiting and knowledge of our quarry. It is physically demanding, requires mental determination (guts?) to go in close for the shot and it’s dangerous (see video).
Answer - yes.

5. Can I sleep at night?
We are sustainably utilising leopard populations that were previously very threatened in areas that used to be unproductive for wildlife in a legal, humane and sporting manner.
Not only can I sleep, but I sleep well.
Answer - yes.

The bottom line, for the unbelievers:- Sporthunting leopard, particularly in areas where they are heavily persecuted, using well trained hounds, is the ONLY way to hunt them.

Unless the South African Game Laws have changed, please be quoted:

"General game hunting laws also exists, those that are a mixture between the old gentleman's way of hunting and modernized intellectual ethics. There's a whole list of these yet most are common sense and relate to the age old traditions of fair chase and challenge.

No dogs are allowed to be used except when following wounded game or when hunting birds.

HOWEVER if your property is high fenced and has qualified as "exempted" then many of these laws do not apply OR if they do you can obtain a permit to exempt you from them. South Africa's strong agricultural roots means that landowners have very particular and strong rights when it comes to protecting their crops and livestock and basically all methods of kill or capture are allowed."

The preceding paragraph raises the PAC question as when a marauding Leopard is on the loose and while it may be taken by virtually any method, would it be exportable (trophy) if taken by a paying client?

Food for thought.

Fujo

That may be outdated. The law as per the conservation bodies I am dealing with says that Land Owners permission regardless of the status of that land is all that is required to be able to hunt with hounds.
In the case of protected species this then also brings in the "permit" and the regulations listed on it.

I can also tell you that with the proliferation of Bushpig and the subsequent growth and spread of leopard after the now common food source, houndsmen and their hounds are going to be the only thing saving SA agriculture from collapse.

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:

quote:

Hunting with dogs is in anyway illegal in RSA except for following up purposes, unless this was changed, but I don't think so

Jaco, its irresponsible to make sweeping statements when you clearly dont know what you are talking about.

If you dont like it then dont do it.

http://www.phasa.co.za/about-p...icies-positions.html

PHASA policy on hunting of leopards over hounds (adopted at the PHASA AGM on 16 November 2011)
• PHASA supports the hunting of leopards over hounds, within the governance compliance structure of the Sub-Saharan Houndsmen Association.

Before you accuse me of making sweeping statements, please confirm your facts. I was definitely not irresponsible. This is an open debate, yes I do not like it and you like it, WHY AM I NOT ALLOWED TO RAISE MY OPINION

The following is an extract out of the TOPS regulations, clearly stating that hunting with dogs are illegal. The flushing, pointing and retrieving part is about bird hunting.

Regulation 26
(Prohibited methods of hunting)
Prohibited methods of hunting
An issuing authority considering an application for the hunting of a listed threatened or protected species may not authorise the following methods of hunting (unless it is for the management of damage causing animals):
Listed threatened or protected species, may not be hunted by means of –
• poison;
• traps, except for the purpose of hunting and / or catching of listed threatened or protected marine and other aquatic species; collecting invertebrates for scientific purposes; and trapping listed threatened or protected terrestrial vertebrate species for scientific, veterinary or management purposes.;
• snares;
• dogs, except for the purpose of tracking a wounded animal; or flushing, pointing and retrieving listed threatened or protected species;
• darting, except the darting of an animal by a veterinarian or a person authorised by a veterinarian in writing and in possession of a valid permit, whether on foot or from a motorised vehicle or aircraft, to immobilise or tranquillise the animal for the purpose of –
o carrying out a disease control procedure or a scientific experiment or for management purposes;
o veterinary treatment of the animal; or
o translocating or transporting the animal;
• a weapon which, after it has been discharged, automatically reloads and fires when the trigger thereof is pulled or held in a discharged position;
• a weapon discharging a rim firing cartridge of .22 of an inch or smaller calibre;
• shotguns, except for the hunting of birds; and
• airguns;

Listed threatened or protected species may not be hunted by luring it, by means of –
• bait, except in the case of -
o lions, leopards and hyena, where dead bait may be used;
o listed threatened or protected marine and other aquatic species; and
o invertebrates to be collected for scientific purposes;
• sounds;
• smell; or
• any other induced luring method;

Listed threatened or protected species may not be hunted by using –
• flood or spotlights, except for the purpose of controlling damage causing individuals, culling of listed species or hunting of leopards and hyenas;
• motorised vehicles, except for tracking an animal in an area where the hunt takes place over long ranges; culling; or allowing a physically disabled or elderly person to hunt;
• aircraft, except tracking an animal in an area where the hunt takes place over long ranges; or culling

Listed threatened or protected species may not be hunted if it is –
• under the influence of any tranquillising, narcotic, immobilising or similar agent; or
• trapped against a fence or in a small enclosure where the animal does not have a fair chance of evading the hunter.

An issuing authority may not issue a permit to hunt –
a listed large predator, Ceratotherium simum (white rhinoceros), Crocodylus niloticus (Nile crocodile), Diceros bicornis (black rhinoceros) or Loxodonta africana (African elephant) by means of or by the use of a bow and arrow.

You can alsoconfirm it on theSCI webpage

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Unless the South African Game Laws have changed, please be quoted:

"General game hunting laws also exists, those that are a mixture between the old gentleman's way of hunting and modernized intellectual ethics. There's a whole list of these yet most are common sense and relate to the age old traditions of fair chase and challenge.

No dogs are allowed to be used except when following wounded game or when hunting birds.

HOWEVER if your property is high fenced and has qualified as "exempted" then many of these laws do not apply OR if they do you can obtain a permit to exempt you from them. South Africa's strong agricultural roots means that landowners have very particular and strong rights when it comes to protecting their crops and livestock and basically all methods of kill or capture are allowed."

The preceding paragraph raises the PAC question as when a marauding Leopard is on the loose and while it may be taken by virtually any method, would it be exportable (trophy) if taken by a paying client?

Food for thought.

In Limpopo the rules regarding hunting seasons do not apply and you do not have to buy a permit from the government to hunt a specific species, you have to buy a permit if you want to hunt a animal that appears on a CITES listing, the prohibited hunting methods still apply. Different provinces have different rules, but they must always comply with NEMBA and TOPS. IN KZN the rules are totally different and you need a license to hunt

quote:

An issuing authority considering an application for the hunting of a listed threatened or protected species may not authorise the following methods of hunting (unless it is for the management of damage causing animals):

Jaco - That does not make it illegal

In KZN for example Bushpig are legally hunted with hounds every weekend of the year.
To make a statement like you did is completely wrong and unwarranted.

There are hundreds of houndsmen in this country who legally and with the full cooperation of their provincial authority conduct hunts with hounds each and every day. hell I get a call every week from the department to conduct hunts on their behalf.

Your blanket statement is wrong and you should appologise to every legal houndsman hunting in South Africa. Its hard enough to keep hunting in this country going, without turn coats within our ranks spouting off on an international internet forum.

quote:

you have to buy a permit if you want to hunt a animal that appears on a CITES listing, the prohibited hunting methods still apply.

Jaco,

Seeing Leopard is on CITES then the prohibited hunting methods still apply.

Any comment regarding the export of a PAC hound hunted animal by a trophy hunter (foreign client)?

An eye-opener for our friends across the pond whose life is made difficult by the Lacey Act.

quote:

There are hundreds of houndsmen in this country who legally and with the full cooperation of their provincial authority conduct hunts with hounds each and every day. hell I get a call every week from the department to conduct hunts on their behalf.

Ian,

Vermin as in Bushpig, Monkeys and Baboons in particular are just that and detrimental to agriculture.

I would not hesitate using dogs to be rid of them and the law appears to sanction any method to do so.

What if a herd of Elephant marches into a cultivated area would you (generically speaking) be entitled to shoot the shit out of them to protect your crop seeing they too fall into the "vermin" category (but protected by CITES)?

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:

quote:

An issuing authority considering an application for the hunting of a listed threatened or protected species may not authorise the following methods of hunting (unless it is for the management of damage causing animals):

Jaco - That does not make it illegal

In KZN for example Bushpig are legally hunted with hounds every weekend of the year.
To make a statement like you did is completely wrong and unwarranted.

There are hundreds of houndsmen in this country who legally and with the full cooperation of their provincial authority conduct hunts with hounds each and every day. hell I get a call every week from the department to conduct hunts on their behalf.

Your blanket statement is wrong and you should appologise to every legal houndsman hunting in South Africa. Its hard enough to keep hunting in this country going, without turn coats within our ranks spouting off on an international internet forum.

This debate is about Leopard over hounds, I did not condemned hunting with hounds, I have been hunting jackal with dogs on the farm since I was a pre school boy.

I did not made a blanket statement, I was only referring to Leopard as that is what this discussion is all about, it is very clearly stated in the heading post by Andrew.

quote:

I did not made a blanket statement, I was only referring to Leopard as that is what this discussion is all about, it is very clearly stated in the heading.

Jaco, that is nonsense. The heading of this forum is Dogs in Africa

You wrote and I quote

Hunting with dogs is in anyway illegal in RSA except for following up purposes, unless this was changed, but I don't think so


You made an incorrect statement and you did not specify anything about leopard.

You are wrong and owe the houndsmen an apology.

I know hunters and hunting are under attack like never before. I believe 100% that if hunters don't support and defend legal hunting methods and traditions we have no chance to educate the undecided who may very well decide our future. Personally, if it's legal I'll try it. If I like it I'd do it again, if not I might not give it a second chance but I can promise you I will not berate/belittle/condemn/mock/chastise anyone who hunts in a manner that I may chose not to. In case you haven't noticed hunting is being reduced subtly; a species here, a method there, with the ultimate goal to ban all hunting. I simply find it incredible when many obviously intelligent individuals can't grasp this? Even more incredible is when I see people who make their living by/from hunting condemning others methods. News flash - you are next on the block!

quote:

I know hunters and hunting are under attack like never before. I believe 100% that if hunters don't support and defend legal hunting methods and traditions we have no chance to educate the undecided who may very well decide our future. Personally, if it's legal I'll try it. If I like it I'd do it again, if not I might not give it a second chance but I can promise you I will not berate/belittle/condemn/mock/chastise anyone who hunts in a manner that I may chose not to. In case you haven't noticed hunting is being reduced subtly; a species here, a method there, with the ultimate goal to ban all hunting. I simply find it incredible when many obviously intelligent individuals can't grasp this? Even more incredible is when I see people who make their living by/from hunting condemning others methods. News flash - your next on the block!

Well said. Hit the nail on the head. Divide and conquer is their modus opperandi

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:

quote:

I did not made a blanket statement, I was only referring to Leopard as that is what this discussion is all about, it is very clearly stated in the heading.

Jaco, that is nonsense. The heading of this forum is Dogs in Africa

You wrote and I quote

Hunting with dogs is in anyway illegal in RSA except for following up purposes, unless this was changed, but I don't think so


You made an incorrect statement and you did not specify anything about leopard.

You are wrong and owe the houndsmen an apology.

I realised that I typed only heading and I did change it to heading post where Andrew wrote about hunting of Leopards over dogs.
I see your point and I will change my post and insert that hunting of Leopard is illegal, My wording can give the wrong impression and I will amend it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
I think what plays a very important role is the way you grew up in hunting. Over years you form values for yourself and you hunt according to that, that said it does not mean another persons values are wrong, as long as it is not against the law.

Being in the hunting industry I hunt with clients and I do my own personal hunts. When I do a personal hunt I set my standards according to the way I want to hunt, but when I hunt with a client I cannot force my client to follow my way of hunting, as long as it is legal he/she can tell me how they want to hunt. I do not hunt from a vehicle, but if the client wants to do it and it is legal I cannot refuse them to do so.

It is also true about driven hunts that is practised in Europe and in the Karoo, that is fine with me but I will not participate in a driven hunt in Limpopo which is bushveld.

Hunting of animals that appears in the TOPS list with dogs is in anyway illegal in RSA except for following up purposes, unless this was changed, but I don't think so

Ian, I have amended my post. I was not intentionally trying to discredit hunting with dogs. I was discussing hunting of Leopards over dogs. If I offended anybody by not expressing myself properly, I apologise, but as I said it was not my intention to discredit hunters that hunt with dogs, it do have a place in specific hunting areas.

Dismiss Leopard. So currently what species are hunted with dogs in RSA?

quote:

Dismiss Leopard. So currently what species are hunted with dogs in RSA?

Andrew
Leopard are legally hunted with hounds in South Africa with the right permits.
This is decided on a provincial basis.
Most are DCA permits.

So, no there is nothing illegal about hunting a leopard with the correct permits in South Africa.

The blatant fear mongering by Fujo and waving the Lacey Act stick is below the belt in my opinion. Perhaps business is slow.

quote:

The blatant fear mongering by Fujo and waving the Lacey Act stick is below the belt in my opinion. Perhaps business is slow.

Really!! - Go talk to the people who can be directly affected by the Lacey Act.

quote:

Really!! - Go talk to the people who can be directly affected by the Lacey Act.

When you can prove that there is any substance to the "illegal hunting" then feel free to call me. Until then you really are simply trying to make smoke where there is no fire.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Andrew and Opus,
I have hunted leopard, bongo, mountain lion (Canada), lynx (Canada), and many species of birds with dogs.

You are very familiar with using dogs to hunt with I am sure. You are also somewhat tainted by poachers using dogs to hunt the various antelope species driving them into snares and such.

I fully understand your ethical issue with this as I have thought this through to my own satisfaction as well. Let me make a couple of points, not to be argumentative, but to shed light on hunting practices.

1. I abhor and find the practice of hunting whitetail deer in the US and Canada out of a "blind or hide" near a feeder. This is baiting the animal pure and simple and a method to train/change the behavour of the animal to come to a specific place at a specific time to get unearned food.

So, how do we justify the same practice when hunting lions or leopards? Same principle is involved. We set out food, we set a camera to see if the right sex of cat shows up, then we set in a blind/hide and shoot the cat.

On top of that, it is done at night with the aid of a light (in certain countries). In the US and Canada, lights are not permitted on game animals at all.

So I ask - which is right and which is wrong?

2. On bongo, you look for tracks at a salt lick or on a road. You have a group of pygmy trackers that evaluate and follow the track. They usually cannot physically catch a bongo but get very close. The purpose of their dogs is to "bay" or hold the animal long enough to see if it is a good male or not. If so, then a shot may be taken. The dogs do not hunt the bongo, the pygmies do.

The other method is sitting in "blind/hide" over a salt lick, wait on night fall, listen for the bongo, then turn on a light a shoot it. For me, that is unethical due to the use of the light.

3. Lions - they are usually hunted over bait. A hippo and other animals are shot to create various baits. Then you wait under that same scenario as the leopard except I am not sure if you can shoot a lion at night anywhere. For me, this is boring and not exactly ethical. I prefer tracking, if that is possible. I would also hunt a lion with dogs as I think the lion is plenty match for any pack of dogs. However, I have not done this.

4. Mountain lions - typically, you drive roads or snow paths looking for tracks. When you see a fresh track, you put dogs down to see if they can follow it. If they can, off they go. I suspect, based on my limited experience that more times than not, no cat goes up a tree or the dogs lose the track. I hunted 10 days and treed one female that we did not shoot. They do not come to bait and are very hard to locate.

5. Lynx - same as the mountain lion but there seem to be more of them based on my experience. Again, we killed one in a 10 day hunt. Without the dogs, we would have resorted to leg trapping them using baits of some sort.

As an aside, I offer that if you use a truck/vehicle to transport yourself over a long distance to locate a track on a road, then you are "cheating" as well. If you were really "ethical" you would hunt on foot and only with tools/weapons made by your own hand.

How far do we take this, is my question.

For me, hunting leopards with dogs is far preferable to shooting them out of a baited tree, from a blind using a spotlight.

My thoughts...

Thanks for bringing this up....

PS- what is the difference between using dogs on "varmints" and leopards? A varmint is something that eats or damages our property by rule. Leopards are prone to do that but they are prettier....

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

How far do we take this, is my question.

You have it right there.

People hunt all over the world.

What one lot consider a great way of hunting, others might consider a ridiculous extreme.

What one lot considers the best way of hunting, others might consider it being shameful.

Who is right, and who is wrong??

I follow a very simple procedure.

Whatever country I am hunting, I hunt the way they do.

If there is any particular animal or method I do not agree with, I won't do it.

My choice.

And I have no right to tell others how to do it.

The two posts above are the voice of reason!

For anyone who thinks hunting with dogs is a sure thing, I say try it and see if you can keep up with the dogs without having a heart attack, and think that the dogs will always tree any animal they hunt, I say just sit in a chair in a blind and wait till a cat decides to come to the bait you are watching till he gets through with an other one of the twelve you set out!

IMO, one is no more a sure thing than the other, but both are ethical hunting!

Of course opinions very and just like a certain body orifice, everybody has one!
.....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Dismiss Leopard. So currently what species are hunted with dogs in RSA?

With the correct permits Leopards.
Caracal
Bushpigs
Blue duiker
Some locals on the coast traditionally hunt bushbuck with dogs.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

There are hundreds of houndsmen in this country who legally and with the full cooperation of their provincial authority conduct hunts with hounds each and every day. hell I get a call every week from the department to conduct hunts on their behalf.

Ian,

Vermin as in Bushpig, Monkeys and Baboons in particular are just that and detrimental to agriculture.

I would not hesitate using dogs to be rid of them and the law appears to sanction any method to do so.

What if a herd of Elephant marches into a cultivated area would you (generically speaking) be entitled to shoot the shit out of them to protect your crop seeing they too fall into the "vermin" category (but protected by CITES)?

I think Bloodnut is booking hunts now in Zim for leopard with dogs only.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

I think Bloodnut is booking hunts now in Zim for leopard with dogs only.

Been at it for quite sometime - not much else on his farm; guess he must be importing his stock.

I have taken the trouble to check my facts. I called nature conservation in Limpopo, the province where I am hunting.
It is illegal to hunt with dogs in the Limpopo province, except for following up on wounded animals and to point flush or recover birds. The ordinance do allow you to apply for a permit, but Lyle told me that the chances of getting one is nil. Also no DCA can be exported out of the country, only if you have a Cites permit can you hunt a leopard and export the trophy. Other provinces may differ, I know KZN is different. As far as I know the Northern province and Mpumalanga have the same rules as Limpopo, I could not confirm it. The rest I am not sure of and outfitters hunting in the Eastern Cape, Northern Cape, Western Cape and the Freestate can expand more on the rules in their provinces. Every province have a different set of rules.

All,
I respectfully request we keep this one thread civil. We have made it 3 pages before feelings got ruffled and words were typed.

Verify your facts as Jaco has, post the response. Several flamers have not posted here so far, so lets keep this civil....

Where you have over populations of species which are now considered problematic or vermin then revenues from hunting with dogs makes a lot of sense. After all what are the other solutions - poison?

Outside of these areas I cannot see hunting with dogs being accepted and in most African countries is it prohibited by those who wrote the laws.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
I have taken the trouble to check my facts. I called nature conservation in Limpopo, the province where I am hunting.
It is illegal to hunt with dogs in the Limpopo province, except for following up on wounded animals and to point flush or recover birds. The ordinance do allow you to apply for a permit, but Lyle told me that the chances of getting one is nil. Also no DCA can be exported out of the country, only if you have a Cites permit can you hunt a leopard and export the trophy. Other provinces may differ, I know KZN is different. As far as I know the Northern province and Mpumalanga have the same rules as Limpopo, I could not confirm it. The rest I am not sure of and outfitters hunting in the Eastern Cape, Northern Cape, Western Cape and the Freestate can expand more on the rules in their provinces. Every province have a different set of rules.

Did not know that South Africa was segregated?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
I have taken the trouble to check my facts. I called nature conservation in Limpopo, the province where I am hunting.
It is illegal to hunt with dogs in the Limpopo province, except for following up on wounded animals and to point flush or recover birds. The ordinance do allow you to apply for a permit, but Lyle told me that the chances of getting one is nil. Also no DCA can be exported out of the country, only if you have a Cites permit can you hunt a leopard and export the trophy. Other provinces may differ, I know KZN is different. As far as I know the Northern province and Mpumalanga have the same rules as Limpopo, I could not confirm it. The rest I am not sure of and outfitters hunting in the Eastern Cape, Northern Cape, Western Cape and the Freestate can expand more on the rules in their provinces. Every province have a different set of rules.

Did not know that South Africa was segregated?

Yes, If you look at my signature you will see that I am registered in the Limpopo province, I usually write about the way we hunt in the Limpopo province, just like other outfitters and ph's write about their provinces. We do have national legislation in NEMBA and TOPS which do cover all the provinces. The TOPS regulations specifically say that TOPS animals cannot be hunted with dogs. If provinces do allow it I do not know how they get pass the TOPS regulations. Outfitters and ph's hunting in that provinces will be able to answer that part.

My commentary was about Leopard over dogs and Leopard falls under the TOPS regulations. I would like to get clarity on how certain provinces do bypass TOPS as it is national legislation.

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

With the correct permits...

Some locals

Wouldn't that have been nice! Especially some of the "locals" in Parly!

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Hoeveel van ons Suid Afrikaners lees telkens die "g" van die "dogs" in die onderwerp as 'n "o"? Ek is een, en is dan verbaas dat die plasings gaan oor honde gebruik tydens jagte? Miskien kort ek 'n nuwe bril? Of is daar ander ook wat bietjie mislei word deur die titel?

Wonder maar net.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Dogcat - As I said, I would defend the practice of using dogs to hunt. And I have hunted birds with dogs most of my life so I do get it. I just don't see the sport or challenge or whatever treeing an animal to shoot the thing.

But I defend the practice just as I do farm hunting behind high fence regardless of species or how long they have been behind the fence or how they were cared for before they were hunted/shot. It is purely an exercise in ethics and taste. I am not silly or arrogant to tell anyone else how to hunt as long as they follow the local laws and traditions. Some of those traditions are pretty strange at times - at least to me.

It is sorta like fishing. I only like to fly fish. Others use hand grenades. Whatever.

An excellent example of how it should be. Much respect Opus.

.
I only saw this thread yesterday evening. Great post / thread.

Andrew's opening post does not specify hunting cats with dogs, and I have never done that, so I wont / cannot comment on hunting spots with hounds.

But I have spent many many days hunting feathered game in many countries using dogs and have loved every minute of it! In fact a day behind a pair of top pointers chasing greywing or grouse is very hard to beat!

Leaving gun/bird dogs aside, another form of hunting that I revel in is hunting bushpig over hounds!

Loading up a truck with eager and excited hounds, putting out a strike dog on a fresh track, hearing a pig crashing through the cane followed by hounds baying and singing, the excitement and buzz of going in to a bay not knowing whether it will be a 100 plus kg boar or a 'red runner' and finally pulling the trigger from one or two meters from an angry pig! It has to be experienced to be believed!

I have run 3 hours behind dogs working a trail / spoor in the cane and we finally got him - a 105 kg boar. I have also taken a 124 kg sow in the thickest bush you can imagine at a distance of 1 meter - she opened the scrotum on one dog and cut the chest of another to the bone! I have also run behind a pack for 2 hours until we had to pull the dogs off as the pig was long over the hills and away.

Hunting with good dogs is a great joy and I take my hat off to all those that manage good dog packs!

My 2 cents ....

Charlie

Ps putting my money where my mouth is - I have already booked a bushpig hunt for end April in the Natal Midlands RSA with a friend coming in from Indonesia to join me ..... I'll post a report and pictures as and when!


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