quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Like Tree'm,

I come from a long line of houndsmen. Hound hunting pre-dates baiting in history for sure (as our ancestors would have just eaten the bait ).

Hound hunting is just a different kind of hunt than a baited hunt and it is hard to compare.

To fully appreciate hound hunting...one must appreciate what it takes to put together a good set of cat dogs {or coon dogs or fox dogs or bear dogs or coyote dogs or bird dogs (which may require the most skill to train)} and realize it takes skill and knowledge to train them. A good houndsman can listen to his dogs and know exactly what is going on "on the track."

Personally, I find hound hunting way more sporting than bait and blind.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:

Why is it some folks think it's unethical to hunt cats with dogs but the same people won't hesitate to hunt birds with dogs?

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:

Why is it some folks think it's unethical to hunt cats with dogs but the same people won't hesitate to hunt birds with dogs?

Cats can't fly...

quote:

Originally posted by Victor Watson:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:

Why is it some folks think it's unethical to hunt cats with dogs but the same people won't hesitate to hunt birds with dogs?

Cats can't fly...

Birds can't bite your arm off

:-)

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Lane

Coons, Foxes, Bears & Coyotes are not indigenous to Africa

What does that have to do with anything Fujo???

and that they may have (and still) being hunted with dogs since ancestral times is besides the point. Ethics weren't much of an issue back then either.

As far as I am concerned...NOTHING unethical about trailing cats with dogs...my family been doing it for generations.

Bird dogs are a different/specific breed of hound altogether, follow genetic blood lines (as you know) and do not require excessive training unless one wants them to be competitive and participate in shows.

That is entirely incorrect Fujo. As having been part of training probably a 100 of each...very similar in how you select a bloodline of a hound or a pointer as well as in training. And both require training...if they are good ones anyway.

They are "designed" to point and flush (preferably on command)and not to chase and/or catch the bird, other than retrieve a dead or wounded one.

They are bread for that and then that natural ability/instinct is built upon...and it is EXACTLY the same for trailing dogs.

Bird hunting without the assistance from such dogs (depending on the bird being hunted) can produce some dismal results.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
I am with Andrew on this one.....would I book one, yes......would I personally guide it, no
My preference is the challenge offered and the excitement gleamed from a bait and blind hunt.
Each to their own as they offer different experiences.
Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
[QUOTE]

Whatever country I am hunting, I hunt the way they do.

If there is any particular animal or method I do not agree with, I won't do it.

My choice.

And I have no right to tell others how to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Saeed

Challenges to maximise success:

Locating a good track and then ' working out' his territory.
Siting a bait so that he feels ' at ease' coming in to feed.
Siting your blind so as to maximise your chances with wind, cover, approach and shoot angle
Keeping quiet enough for long enough sometimes when it is very cold for long hours ( private land with clever ranch cats )

There are several other factors that add to the excitement.

There are many challenges hence my personal preference..like I said would I book a hound hunt yes, would I guide it no.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Saeed

Challenges to maximise success:

Locating a good track and then ' working out' his territory.
Siting a bait so that he feels ' at ease' coming in to feed.
Siting your blind so as to maximise your chances with wind, cover, approach and shoot angle
Keeping quiet enough for long enough sometimes when it is very cold for long hours ( private land with clever ranch cats )

There are several other factors that add to the excitement.

There are many challenges hence my personal preference..like I said would I book a hound hunt yes, would I guide it no.

quote:

Originally posted by WannabeBwana:

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Saeed

Challenges to maximise success:

Locating a good track and then ' working out' his territory.
Siting a bait so that he feels ' at ease' coming in to feed.
Siting your blind so as to maximise your chances with wind, cover, approach and shoot angle
Keeping quiet enough for long enough sometimes when it is very cold for long hours ( private land with clever ranch cats )

There are several other factors that add to the excitement.

There are many challenges hence my personal preference..like I said would I book a hound hunt yes, would I guide it no.

If you substitute "water hole" for bait and "plains game" for cat, would you consider it a challenging hunt?

quote:

1. I abhor and find the practice of hunting whitetail deer in the US and Canada out of a "blind or hide" near a feeder. This is baiting the animal pure and simple and a method to train/change the behavour of the animal to come to a specific place at a specific time to get unearned food.

quote:

quote:
How far do we take this, is my question.



You have it right there.

People hunt all over the world.

What one lot consider a great way of hunting, others might consider a ridiculous extreme.

What one lot considers the best way of hunting, others might consider it being shameful.

Who is right, and who is wrong??

I follow a very simple procedure.

Whatever country I am hunting, I hunt the way they do.

If there is any particular animal or method I do not agree with, I won't do it.

My choice.

And I have no right to tell others how to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Saeed

Challenges to maximise success:

Locating a good track and then ' working out' his territory.
Siting a bait so that he feels ' at ease' coming in to feed.
Siting your blind so as to maximise your chances with wind, cover, approach and shoot angle
Keeping quiet enough for long enough sometimes when it is very cold for long hours ( private land with clever ranch cats )

There are several other factors that add to the excitement.

There are many challenges hence my personal preference..like I said would I book a hound hunt yes, would I guide it no.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

When leopard hunting from a blind, the only way you're going to have any real danger from the cat is if you screw the shot up.

Or an elephant stands on your head.

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
I feel that hunting an animal with a dog or with dogs is as close to nature and the natural way as it can get. There is a bond and communication between man and beast as it was since beginning of mankind. There is a definite excitement to the chase and a pace to it that is like no other. While some may cast a negative judgement on it others do not.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
I will not hunt Leopard or any predator with dogs, the animal just do not have a fair chance to escape. Following up on a wounded animal with dogs is fine as it will help to put the wounded animal out of his misery a lot quicker.

I am also not a fan of sitting in a blind waiting for an animal - I fall asleep

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
I feel that hunting an animal with a dog or with dogs is as close to nature and the natural way as it can get. There is a bond and communication between man and beast as it was since beginning of mankind. There is a definite excitement to the chase and a pace to it that is like no other. While some may cast a negative judgement on it others do not.

In wild Africa I cannot see dogs lasting very long and would succumb to Lion or the tsetse fly.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
I will not hunt Leopard or any predator with dogs, the animal just do not have a fair chance to escape. Following up on a wounded animal with dogs is fine as it will help to put the wounded animal out of his misery a lot quicker.

I am also not a fan of sitting in a blind waiting for an animal - I fall asleep

Confirm you don't kill many Leopard Jaco?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
I will not hunt Leopard or any predator with dogs, the animal just do not have a fair chance to escape. Following up on a wounded animal with dogs is fine as it will help to put the wounded animal out of his misery a lot quicker.

I am also not a fan of sitting in a blind waiting for an animal - I fall asleep

Confirm you don't kill many Leopard Jaco?

quote:

It always becomes quite obvious when you see a topic like this, how many have formed sweeping opinions about things they have no personal knowledge about. They also do not factor in how much terrain and the local environment/vegetation factor into certain hunting practices.

The other thing I think many forget is that there is a big difference between just getting some animals in to feed on bait and getting THE specific animal into a bait. The outsized, older specimens of most species are a lot more difficult to get the jump on than a run-of-the mill animal.

I use to think about some methods of hunting in a pretty narrow way, but as years went by and I traveled and hunted different areas. Moved to several different places and became more familiar with things. Well my views changed. There are places and species where baiting is required or you may as well just forget hunting for them as it would be just a chance encounter.

Hunting mountain lion without dogs is virtually pointless in most instances. They do not come to bait in North America....... although I have been told that they will come in to bait in South American countries.

Hunting for a huge old boar black bear in fairly flat heavily forested country is extremely difficult without baiting. You do not have the luxury of open slopes, slides and big logging blocks to glass for bears at a distance.

Hunting in areas where most of the land is privately owned puts restrictions on how you can hunt. You cannot just rove around trespassing at will to pursue a particular animal. You cannot use dogs for the same reason.

Some of the vast brush country in Texas would be virtually unhuntable if they landowners did not use a cat to clear areas in the thick bush and plant food plots or bait. It would be hard to kill any deer in those areas, never mind see enough of them to select a good buck.

As with most baiting situations I have run across, just killing an animal at a bait is not difficult........... but killing an old, well educated older male is often extremely difficult, even with the bait.

So all in all............. there are many factors that need to be considered in any given hunting situation before one passes judgement on why a particular method is used. And, when it comes to difficulty, there are different types of difficulty.......... physical, psychological and knowledge/experience based with relation to outsmarting a particular species.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
It always becomes quite obvious when you see a topic like this, how many have formed sweeping opinions about things they have no personal knowledge about. They also do not factor in how much terrain and the local environment/vegetation factor into certain hunting practices.

The other thing I think many forget is that there is a big difference between just getting some animals in to feed on bait and getting THE specific animal into a bait. The outsized, older specimens of most species are a lot more difficult to get the jump on than a run-of-the mill animal.

I use to think about some methods of hunting in a pretty narrow way, but as years went by and I traveled and hunted different areas. Moved to several different places and became more familiar with things. Well my views changed. There are places and species where baiting is required or you may as well just forget hunting for them as it would be just a chance encounter.

Hunting mountain lion without dogs is virtually pointless in most instances. They do not come to bait in North America....... although I have been told that they will come in to bait in South American countries.

Hunting for a huge old boar black bear in fairly flat heavily forested country is extremely difficult without baiting. You do not have the luxury of open slopes, slides and big logging blocks to glass for bears at a distance.

Hunting in areas where most of the land is privately owned puts restrictions on how you can hunt. You cannot just rove around trespassing at will to pursue a particular animal. You cannot use dogs for the same reason.

Some of the vast brush country in Texas would be virtually unhuntable if they landowners did not use a cat to clear areas in the thick bush and plant food plots or bait. It would be hard to kill any deer in those areas, never mind see enough of them to select a good buck.

As with most baiting situations I have run across, just killing an animal at a bait is not difficult........... but killing an old, well educated older male is often extremely difficult, even with the bait.

So all in all............. there are many factors that need to be considered in any given hunting situation before one passes judgement on why a particular method is used. And, when it comes to difficulty, there are different types of difficulty.......... physical, psychological and knowledge/experience based with relation to outsmarting a particular species.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:
Hunting with hounds is the only reliable way to control a population of cats. Especially where there is human/wildlife conflict.

A well trained pack will secure a cat long enough to judge it and then make a decision to kill or not.

To my mind, hunting leopard with hounds is the most selective way it can be done.

The same applies to a Leopard on bait, the difference being the cat is not under stress and is oblivious that it is being assessed.
The hunter is thus able to accept or decline the quarry and in the case of multiple feeders (which happens from time to time), the hunter also has the opportunity to wait for the right one to show.

quote:

For those who say a cat does not have a fair chance to escape a pack of hounds, I say they haven't hunted mountain lions on dry ground in our rough canyon country very much. It sometimes can be ridiculously easy, especially with snow, but nearly always the cats have all the advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by Venture South:

quote:

For those who say a cat does not have a fair chance to escape a pack of hounds, I say they haven't hunted mountain lions on dry ground in our rough canyon country very much. It sometimes can be ridiculously easy, especially with snow, but nearly always the cats have all the advantage.

Well said.
I think that in many cases hunting with hounds is judged by people that have no experience of the practice they are supposedly qualified to condemn.
What a sad state of affairs