The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Dogs in Africa. A debate.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Some years back I got my subscription pulled by the African Sporting Gazette because of my vocal condemnation of hunting Leopard with dogs. My annoyance with the publisher was that he refused debate and he and the editor Brooke simply swept me under the carpet. But now and again they would publish my emotive writing to create correspondence within their publication. It is an interesting subject and the hunting with hounds goes back to a time when we started to walk upright. For sake of a good example it is tradition hunt method for big game in the USA and hardly questioned by public or the authorities. It is considered an integral segment of the hunting society. But what about the new and contemporary method of safari hunting with dogs in Africa? ? Personally I feel strongly against the hunting of animals such as Leopard with dogs and it challenges the code of conduct that I adhere to. And I feel that it disadvantages the animal. And then again why confine it to Leopard and not apply the method to all species? However that is my bitch and I would be interested to know how others would debate this subject? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | ||
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Dogs should not be use to hunt or push animals regardless of species or continent outside of varmint hunting. I don't get the excitement of treeing a cat and then casually walking up to said tree and shooting the cat. About as challenging and exciting as shooting an animal in a cage. But I would defend the practice as it's part of hunting culture and many still do it today. Just not my cup of 18 year old single malt scotch. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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I agree, treeing a cat then shooting it is not my cup of tea. But is it different to waiting in a blind and casually shooting one on a bait? ------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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Andrew and Opus, I have hunted leopard, bongo, mountain lion (Canada), lynx (Canada), and many species of birds with dogs. You are very familiar with using dogs to hunt with I am sure. You are also somewhat tainted by poachers using dogs to hunt the various antelope species driving them into snares and such. I fully understand your ethical issue with this as I have thought this through to my own satisfaction as well. Let me make a couple of points, not to be argumentative, but to shed light on hunting practices. 1. I abhor and find the practice of hunting whitetail deer in the US and Canada out of a "blind or hide" near a feeder. This is baiting the animal pure and simple and a method to train/change the behavour of the animal to come to a specific place at a specific time to get unearned food. So, how do we justify the same practice when hunting lions or leopards? Same principle is involved. We set out food, we set a camera to see if the right sex of cat shows up, then we set in a blind/hide and shoot the cat. On top of that, it is done at night with the aid of a light (in certain countries). In the US and Canada, lights are not permitted on game animals at all. So I ask - which is right and which is wrong? 2. On bongo, you look for tracks at a salt lick or on a road. You have a group of pygmy trackers that evaluate and follow the track. They usually cannot physically catch a bongo but get very close. The purpose of their dogs is to "bay" or hold the animal long enough to see if it is a good male or not. If so, then a shot may be taken. The dogs do not hunt the bongo, the pygmies do. The other method is sitting in "blind/hide" over a salt lick, wait on night fall, listen for the bongo, then turn on a light a shoot it. For me, that is unethical due to the use of the light. 3. Lions - they are usually hunted over bait. A hippo and other animals are shot to create various baits. Then you wait under that same scenario as the leopard except I am not sure if you can shoot a lion at night anywhere. For me, this is boring and not exactly ethical. I prefer tracking, if that is possible. I would also hunt a lion with dogs as I think the lion is plenty match for any pack of dogs. However, I have not done this. 4. Mountain lions - typically, you drive roads or snow paths looking for tracks. When you see a fresh track, you put dogs down to see if they can follow it. If they can, off they go. I suspect, based on my limited experience that more times than not, no cat goes up a tree or the dogs lose the track. I hunted 10 days and treed one female that we did not shoot. They do not come to bait and are very hard to locate. 5. Lynx - same as the mountain lion but there seem to be more of them based on my experience. Again, we killed one in a 10 day hunt. Without the dogs, we would have resorted to leg trapping them using baits of some sort. As an aside, I offer that if you use a truck/vehicle to transport yourself over a long distance to locate a track on a road, then you are "cheating" as well. If you were really "ethical" you would hunt on foot and only with tools/weapons made by your own hand. How far do we take this, is my question. For me, hunting leopards with dogs is far preferable to shooting them out of a baited tree, from a blind using a spotlight. My thoughts... Thanks for bringing this up.... PS- what is the difference between using dogs on "varmints" and leopards? A varmint is something that eats or damages our property by rule. Leopards are prone to do that but they are prettier.... | |||
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Dogcat - As I said, I would defend the practice of using dogs to hunt. And I have hunted birds with dogs most of my life so I do get it. I just don't see the sport or challenge or whatever treeing an animal to shoot the thing. But I defend the practice just as I do farm hunting behind high fence regardless of species or how long they have been behind the fence or how they were cared for before they were hunted/shot. It is purely an exercise in ethics and taste. I am not silly or arrogant to tell anyone else how to hunt as long as they follow the local laws and traditions. Some of those traditions are pretty strange at times - at least to me. It is sorta like fishing. I only like to fly fish. Others use hand grenades. Whatever. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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The shooting part of a hound hunt is typically very anti climactic. Of that there's no doubt. But in my experience, hunting big game with hounds is less of a sure thing than hunting over bait. The last time I hunted bear with hounds, we chased 10 different bears over the course of a week and treed two. Depending on the terrain, it can also be some of the most physical hunting you can do. | |||
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As someone who has never hunted big game with dogs, maybe my lack of experience should discount my opinion, but as I see it, hunting with hounds is still a legitimate form of hunting. I hunt birds with my dog all the time, and have done so on game farms where I know that there are at least X number of birds there, and sometimes I find fewer than that number...if a bird gets away, so will a big game animal. While I would not want to hunt lion or leopard with hounds personally, I think I see the excitement it has and can see some others loving it. To me, while it may be a bit higher success it's not a sure thing and I am fine with it continuing. | |||
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sitting over a bait for bear is a great hunting vacation for some, I haven't tried it but it doesn't interest me. I would enjoy it with a camera, but I would look at it as watching wildlife and a means of getting meat for the freezer but not an adventure. following a pack of hounds through who knows what for an unknown distance, that sounds like a adventure to me. I think it is along the same lines as baiting in that it gives the hunter a bit more of a chance but also gives the hunter a chance to evaluate their intended animal before they shoot. for me I think a hunt with dogs would be as much about watching the dogs work as what animal I am after... | |||
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I have hunted Zimbabwe and Namibia for spots with the baiting method. I have also hunted 2 leopards in Zimbabwe with the help of dogs. Two different hunts, both my dog leopards came to the bait and we released the dogs at first light, I could have taken them easy in the tree the night before but opted to use dogs and catch them 6-7 hours later runnings trails up and the down the mountains. I took my first leopard with dogs on day 14 or 15 of a 21 day hunt and my second leopard on day 17. (no other animals was shot just impala for baits so we were just concentrating on the cat). To think its a slamdunk to hunt cats with the help of dogs you just have not experienced it. 1 dog died during my hunt and on got stitched up. A couple hunts after mine the dog handler lost 4 dogs in the same hunt. You can get them 2 ways, in a tree or fighting at the ground. I shot my first cat in a cave from about 2 inches and my second one in a tree. Like both hunts but IMO the dog hunt is a more challenging hunt. Maybe will be hunting them in C.A.R with the bait method in a couple of months  | |||
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I have enjoyed it and likely will do so again.  Just watched Chris Dorsey hunt Bongo with dogs in Cameroon this morning on the Outdoor Channel.  You can argue the pros and cons of every single hunting activity-using high powered rifles, compound bows with sights, modern cross bows with sights, modern black powder rifles and in-line systems, mechanical decoys, realistic decoys, baiting, blinds, four wheelers, spotting scopes, camo clothing, scent blockers, radios, range finders, night lights, sound devices/microphones, etc, etc, etc, and there will ALWAYS be those for and against a certain hunting activity or advantage. THAT IS A GUARANTEE. | |||
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Tolerance is the key even though everyone may not agree with it. Pretty narrow minded to start telling people how they should hunt as long as they are following the law and hunting to the best of their abilities. Hell, the last time I checked, this was all supposed to be fun. Now where're the hand grenades... ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Also, on my comments about whitetail deer hunting - do not take my words as criticism. I have shot a lot of whitetails that way. It just is not for me any longer but I support the person who prefers that method - same as the leopard/lion hunter over bait. I suspect I will hunt cats over bait again in the future. Let this thread be a healthy discussion on this topic. It is a fair and honestly started topic. | |||
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It's a great topic. I am 100% for the right to hunt with dogs. That does not mean I will or will not in the future. The only comparison I have is that I hunted Mountain Lion in Montana with dogs. I really enjoyed it and had a great time. It was something different than I had done in the past and enjoyed it a lot. There are so many methods, as hunters, that we use to increase our opportunity for success- Vehicles, Scopes, Trackers, Bait, Lights.....they all increase our chances for success. As long as the methods are legal, and the species are sustainable, why does it matter? Live and let live! | |||
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You have it right there. People hunt all over the world. What one lot consider a great way of hunting, others might consider a ridiculous extreme. What one lot considers the best way of hunting, others might consider it being shameful. Who is right, and who is wrong?? I follow a very simple procedure. Whatever country I am hunting, I hunt the way they do. If there is any particular animal or method I do not agree with, I won't do it. My choice. And I have no right to tell others how to do it. | |||
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G'day Andrew I opened this thread thinking it was about the recent adventures of Bruce I take it it is illegal in Zambia to use dogs on any big cat? I doubt in the current climate the regulations will be changed anytime soon. As for other countries surely its a matter of cultural / public acceptance and quota. In Australia hunting sambar deer with a team hound of hounds is legal in one state where spotlighting is illegal, whilst spotlighting deer is perfectly legal in other states. Similarly using dogs to catch and hold wild pigs which are then killed by sticking can also see you end up with a hefty fine in one state but not in others. Is the line in the sand just cats? How do you feel about flushing pigs to the guns from irrigated pasture with dogs? Formerly Gun Barrel Ecologist | |||
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I have not done it. But I would try it. There's nothing that I can see that's inherently wrong about it. But I can also see how some might not like it. I might not like it. But I would try it. If only to find out. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Hunting with hounds is the only reliable way to control a population of cats. Especially where there is human/wildlife conflict. A well trained pack will secure a cat long enough to judge it and then make a decision to kill or not. To my mind, hunting leopard with hounds is the most selective way it can be done. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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All I would say is WHEN IN ROME. I have hunted fox's out of their graves with dogs and find it very exciting. When you hear the dog start yapping away you know shit is going to happen. When sitting in a blind waiting for Leopard it's a different excitement you get. You dont know if the cat will come in or if he will come in before it gets dark. Will it be HIM or a female? But no one can tell me it is not exciting when he comes in. I personally would not hunt a Leopard or Lion with dogs. That's just the way I have been taught, but those who want to do it in places where it is LEGAL, will not get a frown from me. What pisses me of though is those that say it is too easy to hunt a cat from a bait and that the cat has no chance. All the cats I have hunted have not been stupid. In fact they are f***ing clever. And a lot of work goes into the baiting and hunting. And it is very rare you shoot on the first sitting, and it is not alway you get you cat on the full hunt. And from what I have seen, everyone who offers leopard hunting with dogs advertise that they have a 100% success rate! How is the cat having a bigger advantage if you have a 100% success rate??? I dont know of any hunting area that only hunt with baits, that can offer 100% success rate! Thor Kirchner Munyamadzi Game Ranch +260 978157643 P.O. Box 570049 Nyimba, Zambia www.thorwildlifesafaris.com munyamadzi@live.com | |||
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I was informed today that one of my associates is gay. I didn't know, I didn't care and still don't care. I don't care if you hunt cats with dogs. I won't do it. Totally up to you. | |||
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This is a very good discussion. Personally I am not a fan of hunting with dogs, but that's just me. And interesting the first comment about getting booted from African Sporting Gazette for not toeing the "company line". Sounds about right. | |||
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The same applies to a Leopard on bait, the difference being the cat is not under stress and is oblivious that it is being assessed. The hunter is thus able to accept or decline the quarry and in the case of multiple feeders (which happens from time to time), the hunter also has the opportunity to wait for the right one to show. | |||
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Food for thought there Dogcat. Only dog hunt I have ever been on was when I was much younger some farm staff were taking on bush pigs in a thicket. And I must admit it was very thrilling especially when armed only with a spear. I would agree that with Bongo it is essential to use dogs and for the pygmy this is a traditional method. In some areas they are taken from blinds over salt licks and I wonder if this is because of regulation. Seems odd that rules vary from border to border and who ultimately makes the rules that governs individual lands? Like Saeed states he hunts under the country rules and regulation and does not think about it much. My bitch about Leopard was that it is an extremely interesting animal to hunt and for the most you have to be on top of your game to secure a good specimen. There are very few PH's who can claim good success rates without use of torch or dog. You are enticed into a daylight game of chess with this animal and require numerous skills to hunt him. There is an element of uncertainly and if you screw up it can cost you (your client) dearly. I feel that all this is lost if you bring in a dog? Also this method would not really work in DG country as there is stuff out there that would scoff the dogs and they would be susceptible to sleeping sickness? Many have a problem with a blind and really it is about how you hunt. You can stick a blind up a tree and approach it with a car and I have no problem with that and have done it myself when the wind was fickle and one time with Thor (poacher458) we would have been killed had we been on the ground. But sticking yourself in a little grass thing on the ground in big game country is completely different scenario. Walk into that set up in the dark or gloom is a very different experience. Throw a Lion into the mix and shit becomes exciting fast. Opus1 you would be gritting your teeth if someone lobbed a grenade into your favourite fishing hole. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I sort of disagree and now and again in the bush I will come across a massive Leopard track and it makes you wonder and ponder about the cat and its habits. Where is it coming from and where is it going? If you decide to hunt it then you would try and monitor the cat movements prior to your clients arrival. It requires some exploration and maybe a couple of nights in the middle of nowhere. This is also selection. I have come across a huge Leopard in the middle of nowhere, far from water and far from where the game likes to gather. Big Leopard (the same one?) are seen at this place in the early season but then vanish. My tracker tells me that they get moisture from the grass dew in this depression and feed off other nomadic game doing the same? I just find it interesting when analysing an animal that you might hunt. Certainly I will be sticking up a bait here this year. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I've done a fair amount of hound hunting of mountain lions in West Texas (on dry ground, w/o snow) and have also used hounds in hunts for mountain lions (called pumas) and jaguars on massive estancias in Paraguay for a darting project. I've also done a fair amount of bait-based cat hunting as an appy in Zambia, sharing camps with Andrew from time to time. The two hunts are very different, but I can't really say that one is more sporting than the other. In Paraguay, we followed trails through thickets and swamps for hours, only to have them ultimately go cold. One time, the dogs got too spread out, and two ended up getting killed by the jaguar they were following. At the end of each day, I was worn out and bleeding, with thorns stuck in me and mud and insect bites from head to toe. In the desert mountains of West Texas, we had trails run cold more often than not, in part because of the way the dramatic temperature change cooks the scent away over the course of a day. We had one cat that we followed over the course of three days, restarting the trail through guesswork each morning and logging more than 20 miles on rough, rough terrain on foot in pursuit of the cat, only to have the dogs' feet wear out on us late in the game. In many ways, a dry ground mountain lion hunt without mules or horses is good training for sheep hunting. Lots of climbing at altitude, and lots of opportunities to twist an ankle or fall and hurt oneself. I've also had dog-based hunts that ended fairly quickly. We caught two different pumas in Paraguay that were treed within less than 30 minutes of starting the trail. Sure, hounds do a lot of the work, but it takes a good houndsman to train and manage a pack of hounds, and to figure out where the cat is headed. And how is this any less noble than driving roads for tracks and then hanging baits in trees? In neither case is the shooting the main part of the sport. And in neither case would the average client hunter stand much chance of succeeding on their own. Maybe leopards are simply easier to catch with dogs than mountain lions or jaguars are. Perhaps they tree more quickly or have a stronger smell. the terrain is arguably easier in Africa, though the thorns can be horrible. I will say that the danger factor is higher in dog hunts, at least for leopards and jaguars (mountain lions are harmless). With dogs, you can do nothing wrong and still have a significant chance of getting charged. When leopard hunting from a blind, the only way you're going to have any real danger from the cat is if you screw the shot up. | |||
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Good post ------------------------------ A mate of mine has just told me he's shagging his girlfriend and her twin. I said "How can you tell them apart?" He said "Her brother's got a moustache!" | |||
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Keep chipping away. The more legal hunting is restricted then the less legal hunting will be available to the public. I choose not to shoot a deer at 300 yards with a rifle. I personally consider it unethical and choose to only bow hunt but that does not mean that I condemn it. It is time for all hunters to unite. if not there will be NO HUNTING in North America or Africa in the next 40 years. | |||
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Yep, United we stand, divided we fall We can go on and on, but ultimately unless shooting out of the truck's window, I'm game for about any kinda hunt as long as it is challenging " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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I can see how both methods can be exciting - or sometimes not as every hunt is different....and that in itself is the beauty of hunting. I guess a hound hunt for chui must be right up there on the adrenalin scale provided you are following the hounds on foot. Often though, I have seen that the hunting party is in the back of a fortified hunting truck driving after the hounds! Is that the norm with hound hunts? If so, bait method without lights for me.  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Or an elephant stands on your head. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I am with Andrew on this one.....would I book one, yes......would I personally guide it, no My preference is the challenge offered and the excitement gleamed from a bait and blind hunt. Each to their own as they offer different experiences. Cheers martinpieterssafaris@gmail.com www.martinpieterssafaris.com " hunt as if it's your last one you'll ever be on" | |||
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I recently completed a cougar hunt in Colorado - my first cat with dogs. I didn't know exactly what to expect, but it was exciting and physically demanding. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I also look forward to hunting leopards with hounds - saving my pennies. No offense, but shooting a cat out of a tree is shooting a cat out of a tree ... and I'm all for it using either method. | |||
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Don't y'all just love (or recognize) these threads where someone is against some form of hunting and, by their thinking, the whole world should stop doing it! BS!!! fairgame, if you don't like hunting game with dogs, Then DON't DO IT. JUST - Quit bitching about others that want to legally hunting with dogs! ________ Ray | |||
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Different locations are more able to suit different styles of hunting. As long as quotas are set to sustainable numbers, and used in the correct year(which was not happening in Namibia during the peak hunting with dogs a few years ago,) I have no problem using dogs to hunt. Some hunters hate bait, but the fact of the matter is almost zero bears would be taken in Maine without bait or dogs. It is the most heavily forested state in the country. There is no such thing as spot and stalk in these woodlands. A handful, and I mean handful, of bears are killed by deer hunters incidentally each year. Recently the anti hunters tried to ban baiting, using dogs, and trapping of bears in Maine. The three most effective methods which would have led to the end of Maine bear hunting, the loss of the outfitting industry across the state, and the revenue it brings. There are at least 30,000 bears in Maine. Now I have yet to figure out the difference between hunting over a food plot(crops planted for the sole purpose of feeding/drawing out deer) and a feeder. Granted the state governments each have their own rules, some allowing one, some the other, some both. In some locales deer hunting is nigh impossible without baiting in my opinion(Far South Texas.) I guess the short version is let us not be too judgmental. No one forces anyone to hunt a certain way. I have read about stories of hunters passing on chance encounters with Leopard because they did not think it sporting. Each hunter must make their own determination before booking the hunt, and then when the opportunity presents itself. I do not believe anyone is forced into any hunt. I have hunted pigs, and bear with dogs. I found it boring and exciting. When the dogs treed the bear, it felt primal. I could have used a bow or a spear, I was that close. I used a rifle, but the proximity to the quarry was still there. Something you do not get from 500 yard shooting for example. Would I do it again? Yes. Would I recommend it to everyone? No. Me personally, I never want to hunt bear with bait, but have no problem using it for deer. But I do not look down on those who choose different methods than my own. DSC SCI Life NRA Life WSF Life <1 Club | |||
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Ha! No kidding. Note that I said "from the cat." Finding a snake curled up in the blind isn't out of the question, either. | |||
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Hunting hounds with leopards is not a 100% slam dunk. A few years back in Zim a bunch of us went over and my buddy hunted behind dogs for Mr.Spots for 10 straight days and never got a shot. The covered some serious ground and got close twice but the cat gave them the slip. The PH, hunter, houndsman, and dogs came back every day whipped. He has done two previous leopard hunts (bait and blind) and was also denied. He thought dogs would give him a better chance. Apparently the cat didn't get the memo. I have buddies in Southern Va. that hunt deer with their dogs in the swamps and would sooner give up hunting then their dogs. I plan on going down next fall to take pictures, write a story and experience it. I love hunting rabbits every Feb behind my friends pack of beagles. Hunting with dogs may not be for everyone. Different strokes for different folks. The danger of civilization, of course, is that you will piss away your life on nonsense | |||
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That was typical Kalahari hunt in Botswana, not possible in any other country what I know of. | |||
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I've done two dog hunts here in NA and several bait/blind hunts in Africa. They are a completely different experiences and I don't see one as being more sporting or ethical than the other. As for the bait/blind hunt being boring I actually find the sitting in the blind when I know a cat will come eventually to be almost a meditative experience if you will. Listening to the little animals, birds and bugs around the blind to me is very interesting and when the cat is coming the bushbuck and baboons bark, all of sudden the the francolin go quiet and the cat appears at the bait. That is some real magic. The dog hunts are far more active and when the dogs bay treed it is pretty exciting. I personally find all the confusion with the dogs going nuts under the tree to be distracting but a necessary evil in order take the cat. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Disclaimer: As a breeder and hunter of hounds for the last 35 years or so, I may be slightly biased in favor of hound hunting. That said, For some of us, simply watching some good dog work unfold is what makes the hunt. It is an injustice to oversimplify dog hunting to just strolling up to a tree and shooting the game. Take in to consideration the decades of selective breeding it takes to produce the highly specialized type of dog it takes to tree or bay game. Then the time and dedication to training it takes to take a dog from a pup to a consistent game producer. Just because one doesn't take pleasure in dogs does not make it unethical. It just makes it the wrong choice for them personally. I have no ethical issue with bait hunting, however it is not what I personally choose to do. All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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Absolutely no ethical issues. Hunting for leopard with dogs is for me the same as hunting for wildboar here in Europe with dogs. Which has been done for centuries. | |||
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Why is it some folks think it's unethical to hunt cats with dogs but the same people won't hesitate to hunt birds with dogs? Jerry Huffaker State, National and World Champion Taxidermist | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Dogs in Africa. A debate.
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