Gents:
I have only taken two air charters in my hunting trips to Africa. Why is the cost so high?

Up here in Alaska I fly 1-4 trips per year and Alaska is known for high prices due to the costs and logistics involved. The flight charges per hour are 1/3 to 1/4 the costs of flying in Africa.

Why is this? Fuel is the same or less in Africa. Labor costs for maintenance must be less. I'm sure spare parts would be more but I would guess pilot's hourly rates are less.

Or is it because it's a monopoly and they charge what they do because they can and it will be paid?

Just wonderin'
Cal

In short - Because you have money and they want it.

Flight operations are a little more expensive in Africa vs US, but not to the degree that many charge for flight time. They know you only have limited alternatives and take advantage of it. Unfortunately many in Africa are under the impression that ALL Americans are multi-millionaires and can afford it. So we all pay...

I paid $13000 for a return charter from Bangui to camp last year,it was an awful shock to the system and bank balance but I was told it was the cost of fuel in the C.A.R. Travelling by road was certainly not an option.

Crap, did they fly you all the way back to England for that???

maintenance, fuel, salary, commission for outfitters, profit, 2 pilots, short period of tourism/year, remote places without paying customers back all adds to the price.

Many of the TZ flight to their maintenance in Kenya what ive been told.

I think to take the cheapest pilot is not the route to go.

quote:

Fuel is the same or less in Africa.

My intuitive response -

No. Fuel has to be freighted to remote locations with multiple stops, vehicles, transfer / handling, transit loss etc. This is not an area of pipelines from refinery or of giant tankers. Good mechanics cost more.

The business operators in Africa may not have US costs, but they do want the high life of the US.

quote:

posted 23 May 2018 23:39 Hide Post
In short - Because you have money and they want it.

yup

I have complained about Africa charter flight costs for years, especially in Tz and Cameroon. The usual response from Fulvio is it just costs more to do business there. BULLSHIT! Africans assume Americans are all rich and can afford being raped. Obviously they are right, as Americans keep bending over and asking/paying for more.

If air charter companies where making money there,it would be a growing or much larger industry.There must be a low demand.I don't think the government would let you get away with making any money there even if there was a demand.Operators are going to charge whatever is going to make it worth their while,IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
maintenance, fuel, salary, commission for outfitters, profit, 2 pilots, short period of tourism/year, remote places without paying customers back all adds to the price.

Many of the TZ flight to their maintenance in Kenya what ive been told.

I think to take the cheapest pilot is not the route to go.

Lots of things cost a lot more over there than in the US.

I was shocked once when we tried to get a charter flight in the Maldives!

They operate sea planes, and the normal costs - travelling with other passengers, sometimes making several stops to your destination, the cost was very reasonable.

We wanted to avoid flying a land based flight - another one that makes several stops - before we had to land on an island where we have to take a boat ride to our final destination.

The cost for the charter was higher, per mile, than in Tanzania.

quote:

The usual response from Fulvio is it just costs more to do business there. BULLSHIT!

Instead of your usual rants, why don't you come over and try to run a business in TZ?

In your great wisdom on TZ economic affairs what insight can you offer with regards to the sudden halt in operations by the big money earners, meaning the Gas & Oil people and the gold mining saga which is still in limbo, not to mention the number of businesses that have either retrenched employees or folded up entirely?

The problem with you is that you are still looking for your hunting Shangri La where YOU get paid to hunt, seeing you would probably bitch if you got it for free.

We are just waiting for a levy on the air we breathe!

Tz charter fees were outrageous 15 years ago when the oil/gas/ mineral boom was in full swing. Nice try, bud, but that ostrich won’t fly. It isn’t just me who has noticed what an hour of flying time costs in that dump- $3-4000 is a bad joke....I distinctly remember SCI Tz donations that estimated the charter cost( paid buy hunt buyer) that were $12-15,000.

The DG PH for my buffalo hunt is also a pilot and partner in an air charter business. IIRC, a good part of his business was for flying charter for large corporations with business in several countries. When the customers were in Africa, he flew and did not hunt.
I recently learned that he has been mostly piloting and not hunting, so it may be more profitable than being a PH. He does have a home and a family to support.

For comparison purposes, I offer this experience:

A charter I took in Argentina last year from a local Buenos Aires airport to a private strip in Santa Fe---- flight time 100 minutes----cost me and my companions $450 per person, each way, $900 round trip, per person.

The aircraft going out was a Cirrus CR22, a 4 place, so called high performance light aircraft. One crew member, 3 clients.

The aircraft coming in was a Piper aircraft, configured for 8 seats and had a 2 man crew. All the seats were full. I do not recall the model of the aircraft.

It's pretty obvious the 2 aircraft have significantly different operating costs and carry 2 significantly different loads. Yet my cost was the same both going and coming.

As clients we have a tendency to look at our experience in the context of our trip, at that time and place, and solely under the instant circumstances.

Running a flight operation is not a piece-by-piece operation. It's a much larger picture.

I'm not defending anything or anyone, I'm just saying the cost of our charters are not based upon our flight at that point in time. We are merely part of a much larger picture.

Having said that, I have seen some numbers quoted that on the surface certainly appear to be nothing less than piracy.

TWL.....
For either of your Argentine flights if you and the other passengers had any significant amount of baggage I would love to see the weight and balance paperwork for the flights (If any weight and balance was calculated) . I rather suspect that, if significant baggage was involved and anything like a reasonable fuel load was carried, the aircraft was over gross weight at takeoff.

Couldn't begin to answer that, my friend. I'm just a client. I'd be very interested in your insight, though.

We were all adult males. Each of us had a large bag I'd guess in the 40lb range plus a "carry-on". Let's say, 190lbs per body, plus 40, plus 7.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Tz charter fees were outrageous 15 years ago when the oil/gas/ mineral boom was in full swing. Nice try, bud, but that ostrich won’t fly. It isn’t just me who has noticed what an hour of flying time costs in that dump- $3-4000 is a bad joke....I distinctly remember SCI Tz donations that estimated the charter cost( paid buy hunt buyer) that were $12-15,000.

The charter prices were outrageously high even before the oil and gas companies moved in and you still haven't answered the questions.

TZ may well be a dump to you but not to everyone.

Ultimately, one votes with his money.

You do not like it, don't go there.

There a lot of places I refuse to go to, no matter how cheap or famous they are.

STARBUCKS is one of them.

Geez, Saeed, look at what Starbucks just announced. Their locations are going to allow EVERYONE to come in and sit, shit or whatever, without buying anything. Might be a good time for you to go in and do any of the above!

I have only been to Starbucks twice!

Their cakes are far too sweet, and their coffee just plain SUCKS!

And service is non existence.

Funny about people going to the toilets there, as one in the mall close to us is right next to the toilet!

I suppose the mall management wanted to keep all the shit houses close together!

TWL....
Assuming the Cirrus was in fact a SR 22 rather than CR (I couldn't find a reference to a CR 22...typo perhaps?) I found a representative weight and balance chart that indicates your flight, assuming 50 gallons (300 lbs) of fuel, was right at gross weight and safely within the allowable CG (Center of gravity) range. Rather different that the four seaters I was familiar with years ago such as Cessna 172 / 182 and PA 28R. I allowed 150 pounds and no baggage for your pilot. To the extent he/she was over 150 and / or brought baggage the flight would be a bit over gross unless a smaller amount of fuel was loaded.

As you didn't give a model for the PA aircraft I couldn't look at that loading.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saeed:
Ultimately, one votes with his money.

You do not like it, don't go there.

There a lot of places I refuse to go to, no matter how cheap or famous they are.

STARBUCKS is one of them.[/QUOTE
That’s exactly what I did. Hunted the Selous in 2002, wasn’t that impressed, never went back. I can kill damn near anything there in other countries for a lot less money.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saeed:
Ultimately, one votes with his money.

You do not like it, don't go there.

There a lot of places I refuse to go to, no matter how cheap or famous they are.

STARBUCKS is one of them.[/QUOTE
That’s exactly what I did. Hunted the Selous in 2002, wasn’t that impressed, never went back. I can kill damn near anything there in other countries for a lot less money.

I don't know, I have hunted the Selous twice, Kigosi once, and Masailand once. Been to Namibia three times, and there is no comparison. Hunting Zim for the first time in two weeks, so I might think differently of Tanz, but I think not.

The Selous and Kigosi were magical.

Game seen in the Selous didn’t compare to what I saw in 2 different hunts in Moz. YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Game seen in the Selous didn’t compare to what I saw in 2 different hunts in Moz. YMMV.

My first hunt in the Selous was not good, but not because we didn't see game.

My second one Fulvio was the PH and we cleaned up: ele, lion, leopard, buff, eland, hippo, et al.

Kigosi was incredible. Masailand was actually kind of disappointing; I didn't like hunting around so many people, although where we hunted buff it was pretty remote.

I have never hunted Moz...Wendell tells me I need to.

I imagine a significant part of the cost is for risk, I can't imagine that a lot of insurance companies are available to insure those planes.

Well, I haven't hunted in Namibia...

Zimbabwe was rather area dependent. Chewore was kind of sparse on the ground for PG, but buffalo and elephant were found whenever we looked. The Save was very heavy in common PG but the buffalo were a bit harder to find. I had no luck on Sable or Eland in the Save, and never saw a Nyala. The area by Bulawayo, that was thick with elephant, but the rest of game was a bit rarer. Saw multiple black and white rhino in the Save.

Zambia- the first time, buffalo were a bit hard to find and lion were hard to find (for a reason)- Some PG species were hugely present, but no quota... Others were harder to find. After the first hunt, buffalo have not been hard to run in to- but I was not hunting them.

Cameroon- spotty game presence but you found it when you looked on the savanna... Rainforest- a much different situation.

South Africa- the managed (ranched) species were there in multitude. The free range ones were more like the densities one sees out west in the US.

Tanzania- was somewhat dependent on the concession. Lokisale- not overrun, but you found stuff. a considerable number of people around. Lukwika- much more like Chewore (but due to poaching all but no elephant)- Selous-MH3- probably a bit denser than the Luangwa, but the average size was not as big. and no elephant to speak of. - Maswa- that was so numerous that you felt like you were shooting in a park, always something in range. Well worth the money it cost me to go there. I think I know what hunting was like in the 50's due to that place. Kitwai- probably the least dense game I saw in all my safari hunting, but we found gerenuk fairly regularly (what I was there for)- Lake Natron- less game rich than Maswa, but easily the most beautiful area I have ever been in.

I think the good in Tanzania is better than anywhere else- but the poor is probably worse than any other hunting country.

Need to see Uganda, Ethiopia and Moz as well as Namibia at this point.

The charter situation is what it is. From my standpoint, my time is the limiting factor. As such, I pay what I have to. Yes, the planes are too costly, but its that or miss out for me, so I pay the blood money.

To put it in context, there are plenty of expensive charters in the US too. 15 years ago a citation-type 6-8 seat jet ran a out $15k from NY to Miami and $25k Seattle to Denver. No shortage of customers.

I know that's an apple to oranges comparison, but it is probably as or more difficult to keep a caravan in the air in Africa, they each represent the "top end" of their respective aviation markets, and their customers have the money to afford it.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I imagine a significant part of the cost is for risk, I can't imagine that a lot of insurance companies are available to insure those planes.

There are plenty of insurers, but it has to be quite expensive. There have been at least 4 planes that have gone down in Tanzania within the past few years.

Being a pilot and operating 5 different aircraft in a club for 25 years, easily used in the Bush...I know what is costs!! Even if you add remote operations and high cost of fuel...it doesn't cost 100 times the typical coat of US operations!!....Call it GREED,
I simply will not book with an outfitter that doesn't include the cost of charters into his camps and all necessary supply flights. If the cost of the hunt, IN TOTAL, is acceptable...I Go, if not...I DON"T GO!!
Charter flights have been a real sticking point in Tanzania for years....not so bad in other countries that I have experienced. I think that's why TGT operated their own aircraft...
Cheers,

May be we should apply the same to the price of certain medicines in America and India?

I have seen some prices which were several thousands times more in America than in India.

Why don't you all complain about that too?

quote:

I think that's why TGT operated their own aircraft

Still charged very high prices!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be we should apply the same to the price of certain medicines in America and India?

I have seen some prices which were several thousands times more in America than in India.

Why don't you all complain about that too?

Your very right Saeed...but Americans do complain about Pharma...it's a huge racquet in the US (especially Specialty Drugs)

About 20 years ago a pilot who chartered in Tanzania told me that the safari company gave him hell for his high rates and then charged their clients an additional 100%...

The other issue in Tanz is aircraft. In Alaska, you often go in a Super Cub; the biggest I have ever used in AK is a Beaver. In BC, I was on an Otter, but there were multiple hunters on that plane (used it for fishing in Canada as well).

In Africa I have been the only one on a Caravan, which seems to be the most common charter out of Dar. Why no 206's?

Because the Safari Companies want all there supplies hauled in and out of camp at someone else's expense.

quote:

Originally posted by mbogobutch:
Because the Safari Companies want all there supplies hauled in and out of camp at someone else's expense.

Actually the provisions, mainly fresh vegetables, fruit and perishables that fly in with your charter are for you and your safari and if the plane is shared with another hunter, so are the charter costs.

On my charter in Zimbabwe camp staff including PH left on our flight in and then came back on the pick up flight
They got a free trip in and out on my coin.
In my opinion the safari company should have paid for half of the charter cost

quote:

Actually the provisions, mainly fresh vegetables, fruit and perishables that fly in with your charter are for you and your safari

I never knew I could eat that much in two weeks.
What about all the other cargo that got put on a truck and disappeared to another camp?

So the $2-4000/day you pay in daily rates doesn’t include the delivery of your food. You have to pay for that, too? Damn, what a deal for the company. They get to mark up the charter fees to the client( and I was told that by a Tz outfitter and his former partner, whose is a good friend). No wonder the safari business there is getting shaky. Say it ain’t so!!