This is something that I've always thought about. I watch safari videos, and see clients making a shot, then the PH would follow up with his own shots dropping the animal when the animal is not in anyway charging or attacking.

I am not passing any opinions because I have no experience. I just wonder how hunters feel about the PH finishing the animal for them? I can't imagine paying that kind of money, doing the paperwork, flying across the world, all to take a shot at the animal then have the PH finishing it so I can take a trophy photo!

If I ever make it to Africa I intend to make it clear that the PH is only to fire if he believes we are about to be in danger, but otherwise I will be the only one taking the trophy without any aid. Is that something that clients usually do? Would a PH resist this so he could finish the job and call it a day?

Appreciate any thoughts.

I think, it's usually after prior agreement
Clean kill by one bullet doesn't always happen
Too many factors
In Africa, where lots of times you can loose animal to crossing back to NP and other things like paying for wounded animal. I don't see anything wrong with that and also the back up shots.
It doesn't take away from the experience
Of course, that's just me

Sue it is up to the client to discuss this with the PH. The one that gets me is the animals laying on the ground that seem to often be shot by the PH... I dont know what that is about?? Is the client out of ammunition or something?

Just one of the topics to cover with your PH before hunting.

It's something that should go without saying.

Sometimes the PH says it at the outset, which is good form.

Sometimes it needs to be said by the client, and saying it beforehand is better than saying it after it's too late.

I make it very clear before every hunt that I want to be shooting the animals that I pay for. Even in a charge situation, if at all possible I would like first shot. I have yet to have a complaint from a PH.

What I've noticed is that too many times the shot from the PH comes immediately after the shot by the client and before any assesment could be made about the effectiveness of the first shot. If that was agreed on before hand fine; if not and it happened to me, I would be very unhappy.

Also, I think the time this should be discussed is when the safari is booked and not upon arriving in Africa when there is no easy way out.

Years ago I saw a PH in a commercial video firing more shot than his clients.

And I don't mean Mark Sullivan, who gets suckers to hunt with him

Only time it happened to me I yelled at the PH to take the shot because he was in position and I was cut off from a safety aspect.

This should always be discussed with the PH, all clients vary in their opinions on this so discuss it with your PH. I for one do not want to shoot my clients animals, it's his or her's hunt so will only chip in if the pro's outweigh the con's.
I would advise strongly to any client who makes an unsuccessful brain shot on an elephant to allow his PH to back up immediately unless there is plenty time for the client to issue a couple good body shots. We have had 2 clients loose their elephant bulls ,both refused any back up what so ever.
Secondly if a client wounds any of the dangerous game buffalo ,elephant ,lion or leopard then this changes things as peoples lives are in danger. You cannot expect a PH to risk the lives of his trusted trackers or clients because the client wants first shot on a charging animal. If this is the case the client can go first.
We once had a client wound a buffalo late afternoon, the PH saw the bull standing with blood on his nose indicating a partial lung shot, whilst trying to get the client onto sticks etc, the buffalo ran away, they ended up chasing the bull for 3 days and covered more than 50 kilometres on the GPS. All this time everyone's lives were in danger. When you are tired you loose concentration and this is when someone gets hurt.
So the moral of the story is try make the most of your first shot, once it becomes a dangerous situation discuss and take advise from your PH, he is there to give you a great hunt and most importantly keep everyone safe.
When things go wrong the go wrong fast and even the most experienced guys don't always get it right.
At the end of the day it is your hunt and your trophy .

Neil:



I couldn't have spelt it out any better!

If it were to come up, I'd want the animal not to suffer (or be lost/only wounded). There are too many scenarios for one response. PH-client relationship must be established early on. Sometimes the client is NOT the boss.

I think that clients that are insistent on the PH not backing them up are letting their egos create a situation where someone might get hurt. If the PH feels that the client's shot warrants a back up, the PH should shoot. If you are concerned that the PH will not make the correct assessment at the time, book with another PH.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think that clients that are insistent on the PH not backing them up are letting their egos create a situation where someone might get hurt. If the PH feels that the client's shot warrants a back up, the PH should shoot. If you are concerned that the PH will not make the correct assessment at the time, book with another PH.

Nothing left to say.

Jeff

On the dangerous stuff and or stuff that is going to disappear in the thick cover, once I pull the trigger it is "fire at will" Of course I never hunt with a guy named Will

Neil and Mike
Spot on

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think that clients that are insistent on the PH not backing them up are letting their egos create a situation where someone might get hurt. If the PH feels that the client's shot warrants a back up, the PH should shoot. If you are concerned that the PH will not make the correct assessment at the time, book with another PH.

Nothing left to say.

Jeff

Period!!!

And it's been said 1,000 times before here. Hence the prevous

Seems that most agree the answer is agreeing with the PH beforehand. Good to hear that others had expressed a similar desire to their PH and found understanding. That should guarantee a pleasurable experience when the time comes! Thanks

As a guide I can only speak for myself,,,

As for firing an instant after the hunter shoot,,only if by prior agreement or if on the range the hunter proved he couldn't hit a target much less a brown bear. At times if in the thick stuff and a bear is hit marginally (the tendancy to shoot high) and the hunter doesn't shoot before the bear departs I will do my best to keep the beast in sight. Most back-ups happen during fall hunts when light is bad and shooting can be very close, my general thought is closer is better but sometimes it rattles the hunter to have a big brown bear 30 to 50' away! I've never had a hunter give me a ration because I shot, been thanked a bunch though.
Polished this fellow off at about 10' !

A good PH usually knows when it's nesasary. The problem can be when less experience PHs get a little excited.

A big consideration for me is why should an animal suffer because of, for whatever reason, poor shooting. Shoot it properly in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Neil:



I couldn't have spelt it out any better!

I still remember telling you to not be shy about shooting and you saying, "Hey, these 500 nitros are $17 a pop! I don't want to waste them."

I don't like to see an animal suffer either, and if my first shot doesn't kill the animal outright, then I don't really think there is any reason for a guide/PH not to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
A big consideration for me is why should an animal suffer because of, for whatever reason, poor shooting. Shoot it properly in the first place.

Very easily done when hunting on a farm.

Doesn't always fall to plan when hunting in the wild.

I have had a few instances where my PH has put the stopping round into my animals.

I have had no issue with it, both times recently it was a bad shot and then we started tracking, me with the trackers and he would circle around where he thought the animal was headed. It kind of requires trust on both parties because you could cross zones of fire.

I have never asked for an "echo" shot, and would not be happy about it, personally, but I do know some folks ask for it.

Most PH's I know really don't like to shoot your animals, and actually will go out of their way to make sure it doesn't happen.

As several have said, discuss it with your PH and make sure you are on the same page.

quote:

Originally posted by waterrat:
As a guide I can only speak for myself,,,

As for firing an instant after the hunter shoot,,only if by prior agreement or if on the range the hunter proved he couldn't hit a target much less a brown bear. At times if in the thick stuff and a bear is hit marginally (the tendancy to shoot high) and the hunter doesn't shoot before the bear departs I will do my best to keep the beast in sight. Most back-ups happen during fall hunts when light is bad and shooting can be very close, my general thought is closer is better but sometimes it rattles the hunter to have a big brown bear 30 to 50' away! I've never had a hunter give me a ration because I shot, been thanked a bunch though.
Polished this fellow off at about 10' !

Nice! I shot my brown bear at 13 yards (we were stalking him and could hear him splashing as he walked towards us but couldn't see him until just then). Hit him real good with a 375 H&H 300g A-Frame, but he somersaulted once and tore into the thick stuff. We went in after him after about 20 minutes. I wanted to go in first (figured if I got hurt my guide would get me out, not sure with my heart I could get him out) but Jason insisted on going in first with me behind him. I had no issues with that. We walked up on him, he was dead waiting on the blood trail. The most awesome part of the hunt.

It is so nice to hunt with a professional hunter who prides himself at having a great season if he has not fired a single shot.

As long as you don't book with mark sullivan things will probably work out...

There are times when novices should just leave part of the Job to a professional.
Otherwise you have people like Tim-Herald who thinks he's a pro-
but only manages to disasterously put a .458 hole through the professional person
most capable of handling the situation at hand.

People like Herald should hunt with 'do it for you' PHs like Sullivan,
simply in the interests of safety & survival for all those involved in the hunt.

There is lots of ways to classify trophies.
One way is whether the trophy you fired at and hit rode on the back of a Toyota a little later or not.
You will remember the last drop of blood on a lost spoor a lot longer and more negatively than a back up shot, necesarry or otherwise.

If one has such a strong conviction to do everything yourself I hope the same conviction wil apply in settling the trophy fee of an animal lost and thus counted against quota with your outfitter. In modern African hunting it would be the exception to the norm to be able to get a second license.

Calling a shot has little meaning, it only implies that it went off aimed at the right spot. It does not imply that the rifle was still zeroed when you fired the shot, the bullet had a clear flight path and at impact the bullet responded as designed and penetrated through the vitals in a straight line. The quality of the flight and terminal ballistics of a shot can only be judged at autopsy ie. dead animal on a Toyota.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
There are times when novices should just leave part of the Job to a professional.
Otherwise you have people like Tim-Herald who thinks he's a pro-
but only manages to disasterously put a .458 hole through the professional person
most capable of handling the situation at hand.

People like Herald should hunt with 'do it for you' PHs like Sullivan,
simply in the interests of safety & survival for all those involved in the hunt.

Posts like this do my head in.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

I still remember telling you to not be shy about shooting and you saying, "Hey, these 500 nitros are $17 a pop! I don't want to waste them."

I don't like to see an animal suffer either, and if my first shot doesn't kill the animal outright, then I don't really think there is any reason for a guide/PH not to shoot.

I wouldn't hesitate letting fly if it involves any of the DG species in uncertain/precarious conditions.

Ammo for DRs in this part of the world is unavailable and to waste it on lesser game is just that.

I expect the client to do the honours in finishing off the maimed warthog, zebra or whatever with their own rifle and in an expedited manner.

Trax, you're beyond awesome, mate! Continue the good work. You're winning the prize.

Anybody with a link to some of Trax' stories and exploits?

I've had to intervene a few times guiding kids and adults onto buffalo, when the buggers jumped-up for a go as we got up to them. I firmly believe in letting people have a successful experience on their own wherever possible.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:

Anybody with a link to some of Trax' stories and exploits?

Some people's opinions are worth just what you pay for them. Save yourself the aggravation, just put the chap on ignore and move on.

[/QUOTE]

Some people's opinions are worth just what you pay for them. Save yourself the aggravation, just put the chap on ignore and move on.[/QUOTE]

Yep the saying "Don't feed the troll" is very appropriate in this instance.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
There are times when novices should just leave part of the Job to a professional.
Otherwise you have people like Tim-Herald who thinks he's a pro-
but only manages to disasterously put a .458 hole through the professional person
most capable of handling the situation at hand.

People like Herald should hunt with 'do it for you' PHs like Sullivan,
simply in the interests of safety & survival for all those involved in the hunt.

Speaking from your vast experience, I'll take that for what it's worth.......

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:

Anybody with a link to some of Trax' stories and exploits?

Some people's opinions are worth just what you pay for them. Save yourself the aggravation, just put the chap on ignore and move on.

done some time ago. the only time I have felt the need to save my self from reading S$&t.

I think we might like to take a breather here and take each episode on its own merit.

Of course, that is not going to happen, as none of us is present when it does.

But, my understanding from PHs in the field is that there are many types of hunters.

Most are no different from us here.

That is they enjoy hunting for what it is, and they will do their best to finish their own animals.

Others, admittedly in the minority might fall into one of the following categories.

1. Utter idiots who have no business owning a gun, let alone go hunting.

2. New to hunting and are not sure what the correct way is, and are unwilling to learn.

3. Those who are incapable of following a wounded animal due to health reasons.

Totally agree that a PH should neutralize a potentially dangerous situation for the trackers and everyone else if I flub the first shot. I've always said that to every PH I've ever hunted with. That said, I don't expect them to shoot unnecessarily, and I've never had a problem. One way or the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

2. New to hunting and are not sure what the correct way is, and are unwilling to learn.

So what about people like Mr.Herald who are not new to hunting and make a professional living from it;

yet still....

- he blindly runs backwards with a knowingly loaded live trigger firearm
- ignores the OFF target-OFF trigger discipline
- has the muzzle pointed at a Non-intended target when it discharges.


sounds much like a combination of firearm safe handling issues the man ignored.

(and please don't come up with the pathetic simpletons notion that it was the buffaloes
fault not Heralds.)
Avoidance of any one of those three silly acts by TH would have avoided S.Taylor being shot.
IT makes no difference that it was Unintentional, the real point is -
THE PH was shot due to not one, but 3 compounding acts of NEGLIGENCE by Herald.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

3. Those who are incapable of following a wounded animal due to health reasons.

Not just physical health related incapacity, but also people who lack the mental nerve,discipline-capacity
to safely control their firearm when the 'heat' is on, putting undue risk to other people and property due
to their carelessness.


Previously SAEED, you said MarK Sullivan has the advantage of knowing where his buffalo is,
likewise, HERALD knew very well where his PH was and despite this, thats exactly where his .458 bullet ended UP.

Attempt a shot on game by all means, be it- Hit or Miss,
But use all your available Fcking brains & ability to avoid shooting someone at all costs.