Trax, now you sound like some prosecutor that just started running for re election
Easy there, you spraying my screen with your saliva

I find it ok for a PH to finish of game if the PH doesn´t feel the client can do it fast enough. The client got the first and best oppochunity to shoot and finish and the PH eventually get the second shot and perhaps under most difficult conditions. Players priviledge really.

What I don´t understand is that people fly all the way to africa to "hunt"...but someone will track their game,lead them up to it, setup their shootingsticks and the client just have to pull the trigger and animals just standing there to be "selected" without even running?. But that must be in another discussion.

quote:

I find it ok for a PH to finish of game if the PH doesn´t feel the client can do it fast enough. The client got the first and best oppochunity to shoot and finish and the PH eventually get the second shot and perhaps under most difficult conditions.

Jens:

Please note that it should be up to the client to finish the job especially when it comes to lesser or ordinary game.

In most cases the PH will be carrying an "unsuitable" calibre of rifle (or should be) and quite frankly, for the PH to waste a round from a 470 or 500 (among the more popular unsuitable calibres) on an Impala, Warthog, Zebra, etc. is asking a bit much.

It is also unlikely he would score a bull at anything beyond 70 yards unless he be on sticks and without scope.

Absolutely nothing wrong with finishing off wounded DG (DG: Elephant, Buffalo, Lion, Leopard and Hippo) as I said earlier, if the occasion was of uncertain or precarious circumstances, I would not hesitate in dispatching 570 grains down the tube.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

Attempt a shot on game by all means, be it- Hit or Miss,
But use all your available Fcking brains & ability to avoid shooting someone at all costs.

. . . or just do like you, never go and never have to worry about the possibility of having an accident and kibbutz about situations where you were not present.

Another thread sadly derailed and ruined by Trax.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

Attempt a shot on game by all means, be it- Hit or Miss,
But use all your available Fcking brains & ability to avoid shooting someone at all costs.

. . . or just do like you, never go and never have to worry about the possibility of having an accident and kibbutz about situations where you were not present.

Another thread sadly derailed and ruined by Trax.

Mike you could break a nail on a key board....that might hurt really bad....just sayin...

Jeff

So you shoot and knock your animal down. The PH knows that it was not a death shot but animal is down. He puts a round in just after you shoot. You have a problem with that. Most of the time he will tell you to shoot again but there are situations like this. You would rather for the animal to get up and run away. This may lead to a dangerous situation or increase the amount of time the animal has to suffer. A good PH will keep you out of a dangerous situation. The days of intently shooting a Buffalo in the ass to make them charge are over. We owe it to the game that we hunt not to make them suffer. You basically killed the animal when you hit him it is just a matter of time and principal. Remember that no matter how much you know about hunting you need to depend on local knowledge. The PH is thinking about different sceneries that are beyond your thoughts. Adrenaline is pumping and your main concern should be making a proper shot. For me it is kind of like the movie with Kevin Costner when he is pitching. You have to initiate the mechanism and zone out all other distractions.

Brian,

In most cases you'll hardly have to worry about the PH even raising his rifle. In all the safaris I've done the PH only shot once and that was at my request on an ele bull. They do not want to shoot your animal. Having said that you should as others have written have a conversation with your PH before going into the field so you are on the same page.

Mark

I suppose if one has an ego about it, it would be best to discuss the issue ahead of time. Personally, I have ZERO, NADA, ZILTCH ego about the PH shooting. To date, I've hunted with 17 different PHs in Africa, and 3 professional guides for Brown Bear in Russia (just confirming DG hunts although some of those African PHs were non DG outings). I've never broached the subject. I've also never had a PH or guide shoot. I just figure it's understood that he is the professional and I'll defer to his opinion of whether or not he needs to fire a shot depending on the circumstance.

Again, this hasn't happened to me but if I put one into the boiler room and the PH fired an echo shot a couple of seconds afterward, why would I view that any differently than the PH asking to test a new bullet on my already downed elephant or buffalo. If my shot was fatal, it was fatal. If not, and the animal was going to get away, I'd say thanks for the help. After all, he's already helped by taking me to the right spot, finding the tracks, tracking the animal, telling me which one to shoot, etc. Just not a big deal to me. I hunt for the enjoyment of the outing, not to prove how great of a hunter I am and that I can do it all by myself like a big boy!!

I can however, tell the difference between a cow and a bull!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think that clients that are insistent on the PH not backing them up are letting their egos create a situation where someone might get hurt. If the PH feels that the client's shot warrants a back up, the PH should shoot. If you are concerned that the PH will not make the correct assessment at the time, book with another PH.

Could not agree more Mike and I believe your point is extremely important. Also, if an owner/operator pushes this philosophy with their professional hunters in an effort to keep clients happy. I wrote something about this recently and was going to share it on AR. I probably will later but not at this time.

Shawn

And there are clients who take a friend along to finish their wounded animals.

This is what Walter does.

He uses my rifle. He fires a shot, and the animal takes off.

He hands me the rifle, saying "here, you run after it"

In most cases the animal runs a few yards and keels over.

In some instances I have to finish it off!

Nice to have friend who let you shoot their animals

I was once following up a wounded gemsbok, spotted it (down) before the PH and threw another shot in just for insurance. All was fine until 2-3 seconds later the PH launched a shot from about 10 feet behind me and 4 feet to the right.

I was not amused....not because he put another bullet into the already finished animal, but because it was basically a shot over my shoulder.

Excellent article by Dave Fulson on this very subject in the latest issue of Game Trails magazine published by DSC. I support his views expressed in the article 100%. Either you trust the judgment of your PH or you do not . . . if you do not, then find someone else to hunt with in the first place.

Amen.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian564:
This is something that I've always thought about. I watch safari videos, and see clients making a shot, then the PH would follow up with his own shots dropping the animal when the animal is not in anyway charging or attacking.

I am not passing any opinions because I have no experience. I just wonder how hunters feel about the PH finishing the animal for them? I can't imagine paying that kind of money, doing the paperwork, flying across the world, all to take a shot at the animal then have the PH finishing it so I can take a trophy photo!

If I ever make it to Africa I intend to make it clear that the PH is only to fire if he believes we are about to be in danger, but otherwise I will be the only one taking the trophy without any aid. Is that something that clients usually do? Would a PH resist this so he could finish the job and call it a day?

Appreciate any thoughts.

Usually your PH will have a policy in place, tell them what you expect but be reasonable. A PH sees danger his client may not; more often than not a PH is looking at the follow up if the animal takes off. There are a lot of situations a PH will not send you into, and he's not very keen on it either.

I have no issue with the PH or guide shooting when they feel it necessary. No big deal unless you have more ego than brains.

Dean Kendall brained a buffalo that was 7 steps from me after I hit it three times in the chest and back. It was not a charge as the buff was running past us, but I was happy he did.

Would be quite the rukus too if the PH let one run off and the client has to pay the trophy fee and go home empty handed. Then the question would be "why didn't he do something?"

After all it's hunting.
It's different when we hunt by ourselves, but when we hunt in different country and continent ( Africa ), then like Mike J says ( and D. Fulson ), we rely on PH's and for good reason. They are called professionals for reason

Gentlemen, there is no question that there are a couple of trigger happy PHs in Africa today.
That is not limited to Africa either. We have all seen this both on film and in person but the habit is not just the pro hunters, but is more common to individual hunters hunting with other hunters.

In fact I have seen this far more with individual hunters hunting together on unguided hunts than any professional hunter! Many who complain of others shooting their game here are guilty of the same thing in the hunting fields at home! I have hunted with others many times when one hunter sees a deer or elk and fires on it only to have two or three other hunters join in and riddle the animal. These happenings are more like a military fire team than a hunting trip, and when it happens I will simply back off and let them have what they are shooting at, and will not hunt with the people again.

I find most PHs in African will go a whole season without even firing their rifle, but if they do fire it, in most cases, it will be a necessary shot to avoid someone getting hurt, or a trophy escaping the concession where the party can’t follow. I have fired back-up shots on occasion in Africa, but only with prior request to do so, but would not hesitate to fire on an animal that has been shot by another hunter, but not stopped, and is about to hunrt someone else or my self!

I would say that every PH I have hunted with went the whole safari without firing a shot, but that was because I was lucky. If I had not stopped him, I would expect the PH to do his job properly and avoid the loss of my trophy, and certainly not hold fire and let someone be hurt or killed!

...................................................................... Opinions vary however!

This post must be for buff only because if you were to fail in dropping a lion or leopard or ele with the first shot then the thing that is most important is that the animal is shot dead at the first chance.A buff can absorb alot of lead before dropping and I agree that I would not want my PH shooting.

Over the course of 33 DG safaris, only once has my PH fired his gun! He was Ian Gibson, and when I failed to drop a cow elephant with a frontal brain shot at 20 yards with my .600NE - it was pretty obvious additional shots were necessary. He fired his .458 Win Mag one time, and with my 2nd shot I dropped the cow with a rear hip shot. He should have fired his gun, that was his job!!

When I guided Amber Knowlton in TZ, she insisted I back her up on all 3 of her buffalo - which I did every time. She was most concerned with a quick / clean kill, and she did not want anyone getting hurt in case she didn't make a good shot. Obviously no ego, and she had a great time without any issues!

Shouldn't the concern be for the animal, and the safety of the group? But in all honesty, if one is taking good shot opportunities and making good shots, this question is really a non-issue. On the flip side, we all make a bad shot from time to time and when we do so, the professional should do what he deems necessary - without reprisal.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:


Shouldn't the concern be for the animal, and the safety of the group?

In most logical rational minds yes.

Q./ When a hunter properly hits his quarry with a broadhead,
should the animal be allowed to run its distance and bleed out,
or shoud the PH step in and anchor/despatch it more swiftly?
(of course animals that are well hit with a rifle bullet can run similar distances)

I recall Mr.Selby saying he let his 14.y.o daughters bull ele run off and die of its own accord
after it was heart shot with a 7x57.

quote:

"I explained again where to aim for the heart as she sighted through the scope.
Gail fired and by the bull’s reaction I felt she had got it right, so I did not fire. There was
sufficient open country between it and the bush for me to take a hand if it did not collapse.
The bull ran for about 40 yards then stood, swayed and collapsed."

For the record, thats near about the same distance that WDM Bell said his bulls would typically run
after a well placed heart shot..... So the 14 y.o. client clearly performed well.

When I see video of SAEEDS kill on elephant, I notice that the PH fires very soon after,
(basically as the animal is seen dropping from Saeeds initial brain shot.)

Well, nowadays, it's more complicated in lot of areas where if the animal makes it over the wrong line, you are not getting it.
Selby and others in the past had the luxury of wide open spaces, which we just don't have anymore.
Definitely complicated issue and very individual

I shot a gemsbok which ran off into the thorn country ... I had a very young PH with, of all things, an old 303 Lee Enfield .. He ran ahead of me to the spot .. I was right behind him but he was about 35 years younger ..

As we approached the spot where it had run into the thorns He raises his rifle and shoots! Running hard he had only the head to shoot at but killed it stone cold dead ..

As we stand over it I noticed that his was the only bullet in it !!! This was the first day guiding for my outfitter ..

We then marched into the brush and shortly after the wounded bull jumped up and took off across a little clearing .. wide open. He quickly shot again and totally missed the entire animal.

About then I told the varmint to step aside, back off, or whatever was necessary - and I killed the gemsbok with my next shot ..

Mostly I was not at all impressed ...

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Another thread sadly derailed and ruined by Trax.

on the contrary!...
PHs responsibly finishing-stopping the animal -or- inept negligent clients shooting their PH,
BOTH issues actually have something rather importantly and closely in common in the hunting field,
since both revolve around primary SAFETY concerns and RESPONSIBILITIES for any & all members of a hunting party.
NO amount of ardent desire to get a trophy is worth negligently shooting someone over....absolutely NEVER!


if you cannot see that,then you be a rather craphouse attorney, and a dubious sort of person in general.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

. . . or just do like you, never go and never have to worry about the possibility of having an accident .

Well there you go folks!.....MJines - a pen pushing paper shuffling attorney,
is now trying to tell a Commercial pilot about the possibility of accidents and risk.....

We are professionally trained,examined and officially passed, to deal with risk,danger and major responsibilities
Of human life and property, on a daily basis.

You I believe have to go Africa every now and then as an unqualified amatuer, to try and find risk while carrying
a dangerous weapon, and then just hope for ones amatuer best when you find it. - -As such, its quite obvious then
why you would sympathies with inept destructive fools like Mr.Herald.
...it was NOT good skill or training, but simply an amateurs sheer good rat-ass luck that he didn't kill his PH.

Professional pilots are reviewed before they are allowed back in the seat following a serious incident that was due to
pilot negligence,

..yet seriously negligent major life threatening gun handling amatuers like Herald can just go book the next hunt....

Clearly, all issues related to what, when, where and how to shoot game should be discussed at length by hunters with their PH's. In my Cape buff hunt, I told the PH that I wanted him and his assistant to shoot the buff if it didn't drop very quickly after I shot. I told him that my ego was pretty small when compared to maintaining the safety and health of trackers, PH's, and me. What I didn't know was the decision by the PH to not follow up immediately was how he wanted to hunt. It was all moot, however, the buff was down at the first shot (spined him in the neck) and my too insurance shots were all that was left.

I LISTEN to my PH, he knows the game and the situations. He is free to always do what he thinks is best in all aspects of my hunting.

I think it may be well to remember that PHs are human and sometimes they make good decisions and in others their decision may be not so good.

I have on several occasions had PHs jump in and shoot when it wasn't necessary. I didn't get excited about it as knew it was my shot that killed the animal. Their shots were unnecessary and on two occasions they actually missed the elephant or buff. I simply commented to them that they just wasted some expensive ammo. On another case the appy PH probably kept me or the PH from getting seriously hurt by a charging elephant cow. In another case the PH didn't shoot in a situation where I had asked him to shoot if that situation arose. My common request was that if I took a brain shot at an elephant and it didn't immediately go down that he double lung it. When it happened because the elephant quickly raised his head just as I shot causing the bullet to go way to low on the head. Luckily. I was able to break the spine before he disappeared. Not losing a wounded animal is much more important to me than my ego!

465H&H

I've only had the PH shoot once, on a tuskless cow when I flubbed a reload after my first shot, I believe I short stroked it. Prior to taking my first shot I told him that he was the pro not me; if in his judgement he felt that he should shoot, than he should shoot. He put one round into the elephant and I finished it off.
I have no problem with him taking that shot.

We had one PH that we felt was a bit trigger happy. He ended up shooting a very severely wounded kudu in the horn on us even though that was absolutely no need to shoot....he was much less quick on the trigger after that. I think the bulk of PHs know when and when not to shoot and for the most part I trust their judgement but as with all rules, there are exceptions.

When I hunted elephant with Paul Phelan, we discussed this. I was hunting on the Limpopo in Zim across from KNP in RSA.

We agreed that if it wasn't an immediate DRT brain shot Paul would assist. In the event we were literal with-in a 100 yards of the river when I got my shot. I was very happy to have Pauls back-up when the elephant got back up.

Sure didn't want to spend years dealing with a dead elephant in Kruger------

Yeah we got him--huge bodied bull with nice ivory.