quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
This kind of post is always strange to me.
If you are so concerned about your personal safety due to dangerous game why are you there?

Your thinking is far stranger to me! If you are hunting dangerous game, or hunting plains game in an area where there is a large population of dangerous game the only prudent thing to do is have a rifle that can handle what ever you run into, or get run into by them.

There are many animals that can only be hunted in areas that are populated by some of the bad boys as well. It is not fear that sets the rules but more a proper preparation for the area you are hunting in. You don't have to be overly concerned about your safety,to justify being properly armed, and taking note of what is around you when in dangerous game country.

Just like using your seat belt just in case you have a car accident!

Fear has nothing to do with it, if your not concerned about your safety when you drive, then why do you buckle your seat belt instead of just not driving?

You just need to be a little smarter than the average bear! If you are hunting in Buffalo/ elephant country, you need a buffalo/elephant capable rifle, even if you are only hunting KUDU. Of course I suppose you could just watch others hunt on TV!

Mike

This is option 2 in the poll form. I have used this method at times. However I have read on AR posts that this is not totally safe as the round can go off if the rifle is dropped or if the bolt is struck hard enough. The idea is that the uncocked bolt has the firing pin popping out & resting on the primer and it needs very little pressure to actually ignite the primer.

I still do not understand how this can happen if the bolt lugs are snug & the bolt does not move forward at all.

To some of the other comments - yes I have been using a gun for over 40 years & center fire rifles for 20 years.

My decision is (Fairgame's method)- chamber empty until the PH tells me to load up. Then safety on. But I will go back to base 1 if the stalk is off.


Mike E said ...

quote:

If you are not comfortable carrying a loaded rifle, one in chamber, safety on, might I suggest, with a bolt gun, to hold the trigger down, with muzzle in safe direction, while closing the bolt. You will have then a round in the chamber, safety OFF, that only needs a bolt lift and drop to be ready to shoot. The rifle will be loaded, with a round in the chamber, but it is very difficult to make it go off like that. This is my personal preferred method of carry on M70 or Mauser type actions, unless hot on the track of some DG type critter. It's still very quick and or quiet if the rifle need be brought in action quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mike

This is option 2 in the poll form. I have used this method at times. However I have read on AR posts that this is not totally safe as the round can go off if the rifle is dropped or if the bolt is struck hard enough. The idea is that the uncocked bolt has the firing pin popping out & resting on the primer and it needs very little pressure to actually ignite the primer.

I still do not understand how this can happen if the bolt lugs are snug & the bolt does not move forward at all.

To some of the other comments - yes I have been using a gun for over 40 years & center fire rifles for 20 years.

My decision is (Fairgame's method)- chamber empty until the PH tells me to load up. Then safety on. But I will go back to base 1 if the stalk is off.


Mike E said ...

quote:

If you are not comfortable carrying a loaded rifle, one in chamber, safety on, might I suggest, with a bolt gun, to hold the trigger down, with muzzle in safe direction, while closing the bolt. You will have then a round in the chamber, safety OFF, that only needs a bolt lift and drop to be ready to shoot. The rifle will be loaded, with a round in the chamber, but it is very difficult to make it go off like that. This is my personal preferred method of carry on M70 or Mauser type actions, unless hot on the track of some DG type critter. It's still very quick and or quiet if the rifle need be brought in action quickly.

Carrying with a hot chamber in an uncocked condition is not safe under conditions of a fall or dropped firearm. If the firearm lands butt first there can be enough inertia in the firing pin, especially those with heavier cocking pieces, to move rearward against the spring, not enough to engage the sear but enough to then be driven forward into the primer and fire the cartridge.

We warn against this carry method in our firearm safety teaching here in NZ although I know it gets used by some hunters. I prefer bolt handle up when carrying a rifle at the ready, quieter than a safety to close the bolt if up close to an animal and in the case of my Mauser dangerous game rifle far quicker to close the bolt and shoot than wing the safety over. This is the carry method I always use when hunting with others and crawling through bush or negotiating creek beds, rough country etc where game maybe close at hand and there is a need to shoot quick. For mountain and open hunting with slinged rifle, cold chamber and bolt closed.

On Aussie buffalo, hot and bolt up even when close and especially so when other hunters stalking near by or side by side.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Mike

This is option 2 in the poll form. I have used this method at times. However I have read on AR posts that this is not totally safe as the round can go off if the rifle is dropped or if the bolt is struck hard enough. The idea is that the uncocked bolt has the firing pin popping out & resting on the primer and it needs very little pressure to actually ignite the primer.

I still do not understand how this can happen if the bolt lugs are snug & the bolt does not move forward at all.

To some of the other comments - yes I have been using a gun for over 40 years & center fire rifles for 20 years.

My decision is (Fairgame's method)- chamber empty until the PH tells me to load up. Then safety on. But I will go back to base 1 if the stalk is off.


Mike E said ...

quote:

If you are not comfortable carrying a loaded rifle, one in chamber, safety on, might I suggest, with a bolt gun, to hold the trigger down, with muzzle in safe direction, while closing the bolt. You will have then a round in the chamber, safety OFF, that only needs a bolt lift and drop to be ready to shoot. The rifle will be loaded, with a round in the chamber, but it is very difficult to make it go off like that. This is my personal preferred method of carry on M70 or Mauser type actions, unless hot on the track of some DG type critter. It's still very quick and or quiet if the rifle need be brought in action quickly.

Carrying with a hot chamber in an uncocked condition is not safe under conditions of a fall or dropped firearm. If the firearm lands butt first there can be enough inertia in the firing pin, especially those with heavier cocking pieces, to move rearward against the spring, not enough to engage the sear but enough to then be driven forward into the primer and fire the cartridge.

We warn against this carry method in our firearm safety teaching here in NZ although I know it gets used by some hunters. I prefer bolt handle up when carrying a rifle at the ready, quieter than a safety to close the bolt if up close to an animal and in the case of my Mauser dangerous game rifle far quicker to close the bolt and shoot than wing the safety over. This is the carry method I always use when hunting with others and crawling through bush or negotiating creek beds, rough country etc where game maybe close at hand and there is a need to shoot quick. For mountain and open hunting with slinged rifle, cold chamber and bolt closed.

On Aussie buffalo, hot and bolt up even when close and especially so when other hunters stalking near by or side by side.

You and I are on the same page mate.

It would seem that there are some who will never hunt with me because I practise safety.

As Buzz once stated here we 'do things differently in Zambia' and I tend to agree.

I concur with plains game, empty chamber, full mag.,dangerous game, full chamber, safe on/hands off.

The loaded chamber, bolt closed, action uncocked approach defeats the mechanical advantage of the safety. On a M70 the safety on adds the advantage of preventing a partial or greater bolt lift, which could compromise a desired discharge.

quote:

I still do not understand how this can happen if the bolt lugs are snug & the bolt does not move forward at all.

Naki:

While the actual bolt may be firmly locked, the firing pin is a floating part of the assembly if the sear has not been engaged (hot chamber) and IMO a more dangerous proposition than having the weapon loaded with safety ON.

A sharp clout from a vertical/downward position could lead to an AD but if its any consolation the discharge will be heaven-bound; most accidents from this type of situation however are usually heard of when the "hot-chambered" weapon was being carried in the confines of the cab; shot went off and plugged the poor bastard riding in the back of the truck.

It would be most unlikely that an AD would occur if the weapon is in the rack in a horizontal position.

Check your firearm for "creeping" effects on the trigger assembly and ensure you have a sear that breaks crisply - don't mess about honing the mating parts unless you know what you are doing!

Safety mechanisms also play an important part; gun-makers have pitted their wits against each other to see who can come up with the quickest, quietest system but not entirely the safest - IMO one amongst the safest is the Mauser 98 flag safety but, as in any firearm, if the sear is worn, an AD may occur when releasing the safety (especially if the trigger has been "fingered").

The safest way to carry a firearm has therefore nothing to do with the effectiveness of the working parts as Murphy is always lurking in the vicinity but rather to carry it in a manner where the delivery end is pointing in the right direction: skyward and away from the guy in front - downwards may result in a ricocheting projectile, therefore also unsafe.

Mac has already offered the perfect reply with regards to the "African carry" method.

Nakihunter

Have you got the standard CZ 2 position safety or have you modified for the Win70 type side wing safety.

Although I am very cautious about carrying hot and relying on any safety I do have less of an issue carrying hot if the safety is one that locks the firing pin directly. My Schultz and Larsen rifle had a 3 position safety similar to a Win70 and I did use that at times when hunting alone and closing on game. The M60 S&H was cock on closing so was a bit slower in closing from a half open position and being a slick push feed the bolt would easily slide open if the rifle was tilted rearward.

I do not like to rely on a trigger sear locking safety although again if on my own I have done so with my other rifles with this type of safety when close to game.

When you are in Africa I would carry using whatever method you feel comfortable with. You are the paying client and it is your rifle so I would not carry just to suit the PH if I was not comfortable.
As for the African carry, I have never seen this method used anywhere else I have hunted and many a time the conditions have been tougher than you will ever find in Africa. I see more muzzle sweeps in just about every video posted when hunters are using the African carry. Many deny this happens but they should just sit back and watch the rifle carry and not the animal action and it will be glaringly obvious. Still if everyone is happy with this then so be it.

Thanks for the info guys. Fujo - yes I forgot that the firing pin is floating ....

Eagle27, yes I agree with you mate. The African carry is not for me. But it might be just perfect for the experienced PH in Africa.

The major issues for me are that the rifle is new & despite all the practice I will get in the next year, it will not be the same as hunting with it. Secondly it is a much heavier rifle & the distance walked will be a lot more than here in NZ, though the terrain & conditions are less challenging. Thirdly it is my first DG hunt and finally, it will be my first hunt with 4 or 5 people around.

I do use the sling when not actually stalking but just walking. That solves the carry factor.

BTW - we now have another "lonely" hunter in the polls with loaded chamber & safety OFF!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I still do not understand how this can happen if the bolt lugs are snug & the bolt does not move forward at all.

Naki:

A sharp clout from a vertical/downward position could lead to an AD but if its any consolation the discharge will be heaven-bound; most accidents from this type of situation however are usually heard of when the "hot-chambered" weapon was being carried in the confines of the cab; shot went off and plugged the poor bastard riding in the back of the truck.

It would be most unlikely that an AD would occur if the weapon is in the rack in a horizontal position.

I do not think a loaded, in any manner, rifle, should be in any vehicle. No reason for it, and every reason against it.

When we get onto the truck, we never climb up with our rifle. Rifles get unloaded, bolt or action open, and handed up, with a clear " it's clean, it is not hot, etc....." no exceptions. Two people checking, makes it more positive that a loaded rifle, doesn't make the ride.

I used to share a similar position Naki and Fujotupu, regarding the closed bolt, hot chamber, lowered firing pin method. I was invited to make the rifle fire in this condition anyway I could. I could not make it fire. Perhaps if I had taken a ball peen to the bolt shroud, but slamming and dropping and pounding, did not make it go BANG.

Having said this, every man is responsible for his weapon, period. If the PH is OK with hot carry, and you are not, then do not. It is ultimately your call.

The other thing I will say, is this - Everyone is a range officer, all the time. If you see unsafe gun practice, call a halt then and there. Don't care if it is a stalk or not, close to animal or not. If you tolerate unsafe actions, you are as guilty as the party performing the action.

Once you hold others to your standards, you'll be surprised how much better everyone's habits become. The simple act of asking someone " please don't point that at me again" gives a clear message about where you stand on the safety issue. Saying it a second and third time, you are more than justified in dialing it up a bit.

Just some observations on this subject.

First, I feel this subject was brought up due more to shootaway's video, than the actual number of Accidental Discharges that occur annually, world wide, not just in Africa. Whether Africa/America/Mars or Jupiter, it is the clients responsibility to discuss this with the PH or guide, before the hunt begins, and since that person is the experienced, professional the client either needs to listen to that person, or find another professional that is going to allow the client to dictate such things. Good Luck on that, because the video also shows what takes place when the client believes they know3 more than the professional.

No, I have no experience hunting anything in Africa, but I have and do go on guided hunts in America and Canada, and other than when in a vehicle or boat traveling from one location to another, if we were out walking, the guide wanted me to have a round in the chamber and the safety on.

When I am guiding someone, if they do not ask, I inform them that when not in a vehicle or in camp their rifle needs to be loaded with safety on.

Even as a guide here in Texas, I do not know 100% of the time when a shooting opportunity will present itself. I have no concept of what it must be like to be walking along and suddenly find oneself face to face with something willing and capable of turning a human into a pile of fertilizer, while carrying a loaded rifle let alone an unloaded one.

Count me as one of the 85 that picked answer number 5.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Here is the scenario

You are on your first African safari & using a bolt action magazine rifle.

You are NOT used to hunting with a group of trackers & PH (say 4 or 5 people in the group)

Chamber loaded - Bolt OPEN - ready to close bolt & shoot (Kiwi style)

There is a very good reason that only drew 2% vote. The fact is I own about thirty big bore bolt rifles, and not one of them will let a round stay in the chamber with the bolt open unless the barrel is pointed down at the ground. By the same token, with the rifle pointed down the bolt will run down against the chambered cartridge! The fact is the person who put that rule in the Mountain Safety Counsel's safety rules has not tried it under hunting conditions. I doubt Naki has tried it either!

A far better rule would be to simply leave the chamber empty with the bolt closed with magazine full up. Especially in New Zealand where there is no dangerous game and the mountains are perfect terrain for causing falls. I predict that anyone using this so-called Kiwi style in dangerous game bush will eventually close a bolt on an empty chamber at the wrong time, or not be able to close it because the rifle is full of bush trash.

I carry a bolt rifle with the chamber empty, bolt closed till the tracking gets close, then simply open the bolt, and slide a round in the chamber very quietly, safety on and the rifle carried port arms barrel up, or on the sling barrel up.

That was number one in the poll, but only drew 27 votes (22%), most 85 votes (70%) for bolt closed on a round safety on! conditions #1, and #5 are the only safe way, while #2 and %4 are very unsafe, and #3 is a pipe dream, and doesn't work with any bolt rifle I own!

When it all boils down to be safe, requires knowing where your rifle is pointed, nothing else works as well!

..........................................................................................

Not all firearm safety's were created equally, just as those who handle them were not. I take each (of both) on their apparent merits.

quote:

I do not think a loaded, in any manner, rifle, should be in any vehicle. No reason for it, and every reason against it

MikeE

I couldn't agree more - I know of two incidents where one ended in tragedy and in the second, the guy with his hand covering the muzzle lost 2 fingers from his right hand.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I do not think a loaded, in any manner, rifle, should be in any vehicle. No reason for it, and every reason against it

MikeE

I couldn't agree more - I know of two incidents where one ended in tragedy and in the second, the guy with his hand covering the muzzle lost 2 fingers from his right hand.

Gentlemen, am I to understand you to believe a bolt rifle with the chamber empty, firing pin spring relaxed, but the magazine full is not to be allowed in a vehicle rifle rack?

I'm going to have to disagree with that if, in fact, that is the case. In my experience in Africa, every PH I've hunted with has safed his bolt rifle by removing the cartridge from the chamber, and closed the bolt, turning down the bolt handle while pressing the trigger to relieve the firing pin spring on and empty chamber, leaving the magazine loaded, and placing the rifle in the rack of the vehicle.

I've never heard of any PH actually removing all the cartridges from his rifle when he gets back in the vehicle. The rifle is safed that same way when it is handed to a tracker to carry as well. The only rifle I see unloaded completely for transport in the vehicle is a double rifle. However that makes perfect sense to me!

.......................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


Gentlemen, am I to understand you to believe a bolt rifle with the chamber empty, firing pin spring relaxed, but the magazine full is not to be allowed in a vehicle rifle rack?

I'm going to have to disagree with that if, in fact, that is the case. In my experience in Africa, every PH I've hunted with has safed his bolt rifle by removing the cartridge from the chamber, and closed the bolt, turning down the bolt handle wile pressing the trigger to relieve the firing pin spring on and empty chamber, leaving the magazine loaded, and placing the rifle in the rack of the vehicle.

I've never heard of any PH actually removing all the cartridges from his rifle when he gets back in the vehicle. The rifle is safed that same way when it is handed to a tracker to carry as well. The only rifle I see unloaded completely for transport in the vehicle is a double rifle. However that makes perfect sense to me!

.......................................................................

Quite correct there, thank you, and the "Kiwi-carry" makes no sense any which way you look at it, at all, period.

Most important, I think, is to do what you are used to. I had my one and only accidental discharge in Mozambique in 2006. I was following my PH's suggestion to chamber a round with the trigger depressed to de-cock. My muzzle was skyward, and after closing the bolt, some demon voice made me check the gun by trying the trigger rather than simply looking at the cocking indicator. A 375 RUM with the muzzle brake next to your ear is f**king loud. I was, of course mortified after we all settled down.
Never do under field conditions what you haven't trained yourself to do.

quote:

Gentlemen, am I to understand you to believe a bolt rifle with the chamber empty, firing pin spring relaxed, but the magazine full is not to be allowed in a vehicle rifle rack?

Mac:

A simple misunderstanding - it is with reference to a "hot chamber" - (relaxed pin against chambered round)

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
. . . we 'do things differently in Zambia' and I tend to agree.

All this talk about bolt action rifles, what is the "Zambian way" to carry a double, both chambers empty?

I am surprised at the level of interest and some emotion here!

This thread was NOT started for a discussion about AD specifically.

Firstly I started this thread because I am booked for a First African safari with Martin Pieters next year - target is buffalo.

I had already emailed martin and confirmed our method of carry etc.

Since this is my first hunt with 4 or 5 people in a group, I wanted some input from others.

The other cow buffalo thread has relevance only incidentally and not by intention.

Mac, you are obviously very experience particularly with doubles. Similarly there are many people in other parts of the world who are very experienced in hunting with bow & arrow, single shot, etc.

The Kiwi carry is very common & many of the older Mountain Safety people (volunteers) were deer cullers in the 60s & 70s. People with hundreds of days in the bush use the kiwi carry - but only for deer & may be tahr / chammy. I have used this carry almost exclusively for 20+ years. The big difference is that we usually hunt alone & sometimes with a mate. If I am behind a mate, the rifle is on a sling with bolt uncocked. Yes sometimes there is a round in the chamber & I realise that it can be unsafe.

Our safety norms here are that the rifle in a vehicle or a bush hut is left unloaded with chamber & magazine empty & bolt OPEN. It is against the law to have a loaded magazine in a vehicle. It is also illegal to have the bolt in the rifle during storage at home! By law we are required to store rifle,bolt & ammo separately under lock & key.

I have seen American friends store rifles with ammo in chamber & bolt closed uncocked. If the arms officer inspected my gun safe & found that, I could lose my license.

quote:

I have seen American friends store rifles with ammo in chamber & bolt closed uncocked. If the arms officer inspected my gun safe & found that, I could lose my license.

That, is YOUR problem, there is nothing ANYONE from another country can do about that.

In Colorado it is legal to have rounds in the magazine of a rifle, but not in the chamber when in a vehicle. In Texas it does not matter because on private land you can legally shoot from a vehicle.

Every place is a little different from every place else as far as firearms and hunting rules are concerned. I believe the reasons for the emotional responses are the result of personal beliefs/experiences.

The aspect that seems to keep cropping up in this discussion concerns accidental discharges. From my experience the vast majority of AD's are the direct result of Operator Error, not equipment failure/malfunction.

The fact that you have discussed your concerns ahead of time with the outfitter/PH will or should go along way toward helping you enjoy your Safari.

CHC

Thanks for the good wishes. Yes that is the exact reason why I tabled the issue with the PH well in advance.

I felt that preparation is not just about load development and range shooting. I was trying to visualise the hunt a bit and also watched videos by Saeed, Boddington etc.

My comment about the loaded gun being stored is not a "problem". I mentioned it for exactly the same reasons that you listed. Each local area has its own rules, laws, customs, habits, conditions etc. I made that point specifically to illustrate the rationale for the Kiwi carry which someone else derided.

Thanks once again.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

Mac, you are obviously very experience particularly with doubles. Similarly there are many people in other parts of the world who are very experienced in hunting with bow & arrow, single shot, etc.

Naki, experience is a help, but it is not everything! There are many people here on AR that have far more experience than I in Africa. As far as experience more with Double rifles, that is not the case either. I have far more experience with single shot, bolt and lever action rifles than with double rifles.

I have 70 years experience with bolt, lever and single shots till today, starting with my first .22 rifle at age six years in 1943. I bought my first double rifle in 1958, and have hunted with all of them till today. Even today I will fire a bolt far more in Africa than the double rifle in most cases. That's 70 yrs with bolts, and only 55 yrs with double rifles.

70 yrs experience with bolt, lever and single shot rifles from the age of six yrs, and only the last 55 yrs have included double rifles. Have continued with all types till today.

None the less I know people who have been hunting and shooting as long as I have, and still are poor gun handlers, and can't hit the walls of a barn from the inside with the doors closed, with targets on all four walls.

Corrected typo not 1954, but 1958 when I bought my first double rifle!
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quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[ Gentlemen, am I to understand you to believe a bolt rifle with the chamber empty, firing pin spring relaxed, but the magazine full is not to be allowed in a vehicle rifle rack?

I'm going to have to disagree with that if, in fact, that is the case. In my experience in Africa, every PH I've hunted with has safed his bolt rifle by removing the cartridge from the chamber, and closed the bolt, turning down the bolt handle while pressing the trigger to relieve the firing pin spring on and empty chamber, leaving the magazine loaded, and placing the rifle in the rack of the vehicle.

I've never heard of any PH actually removing all the cartridges from his rifle when he gets back in the vehicle. The rifle is safed that same way when it is handed to a tracker to carry as well. The only rifle I see unloaded completely for transport in the vehicle is a double rifle. However that makes perfect sense to me!

.......................................................................

Mac,

You are not confused.

When I spoke of handing a "safe, clear" rifle up, it wsa understood to be a bolt action, with a clear chamber. Normally, it would still have rounds in the magazine. At end of the day, before bringing the rifles into camp, they would be cased, most if not all of the time, rounds removed from the magazine.

Doubles are usually empty on the truck, since when using a double, I normally have a culling belt on, with those cartridges handy. If that rifle is needed in a hurry, I can have two in my hand, before the gun is out of the rack.

Naki, I understand your reluctance to have a hot magazine, you did not grow up or train that way. Do as you will, you probably won't be shooting from the truck much either!

I do have a reservation about the Kiwi carry though - I do not like that much dust and crud in the action. If you don't want or are not comfortable with the round in the barrel, don't then. Understand you are trading one hazard for another if you are in DG territory. I'm most comfortable with round in, relaxed firing pin. A glance at the shroud, tells me if cocked or not. A silent lift and close, and we are hot again.

In general, I don't trust safeties too much. Prefer to keep rifle in stated condition, and mind the muzzle 100%. I have had one "AD" and it was in a training class Dave Fulson was filming. Charging buffalo target, had shot it a couple times with rifle, running the bolt fast, rifle still in cheek and shoulder. Apparently, my hand brushed the trigger while speed dialing the bolt, rifle went BANG, not when I intended it to. The round still hit the shoot-n-see on the buff, but it shook me a bit.

Rifle in question was a 243 BTW, with about a 2 lb trigger. Point being, most AD/ND happen when something is going on.... like charging critters, getting in the truck, etc. That is when training and previous muscle memory is most important, it is what you will revert to every time.

Rarely does a ND happen while just traipsing thru the veldt on a stalk, unless one is one of those vile creatures that "pets and strokes" the trigger absently. Very bad habit, and hard to break, as it seems to be a nervous condition.......

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

............
I am currently reading John Taylor's book on African Rifles & cartridges. There is an incident he writes about a gun bearer carrying his hammer DR & had the right hammer cocked twice while just walking in the bush. Taylor got annoyed and took over the rifle. After some time he noticed that the hammer was cocked during his carry as well! ..........

Old Pondoro was known to be a bit of a bullshitter and I would take that part of the story with a generous pinch of salt.

It would take some very heavy handed "brushing" to cock a hammer action DR !!

P.S.

I have two such rifles in my showcase and out of curiosity have just tried cocking the both and "guesstimated" a required pressure of no less than 5lbs on each !

Can't remember the full details, but didn't that happen on a "haunted" mountain or something?

And, yes, Pondoro never really let the facts spoil a good story from what I hear.

He wrote something about a raid into Tanganyiks where he had the game wardens crying .... someone interviewed the chief warden in the area at the time, and he'd never heard of it.

Wish I could remember where I read that.

Naki

Options 2 and 4 are just plain dangerous.

Your PH is probably going to have you shifting between option 1 and option 5. Certainly option 1 on the vehicle.

In camp, it'll probably be unloaded completely bolt closed and a round stuck nose first into the muzzle to prevent grotty little mud wasps building a nest in the barrel.

Option 3, I personally cannot get to work unless I'm carrying muzzle down, so I'll just disregard it.

Exactly WHEN you will be switching from 1 to 5 will be up to you and your PH.

And remember - the best safety is the grey gunk between your ears ..... so muzzle direction at all times.

Have a good hunt.

I am in the group who says do what the PH asks, as long as you are comfortable with it.

I was something of a competitive practical shooter before my first hunt, and have been hunting birds all my life as well as spending some time in ROTC, so I really didn't feel "scared" about handling a loaded, safed weapon- but I did talk to the PH (Hilton Nichols) about it and was told that having a loaded rifle, on safe was the way to go after we did the routine sight in.

I think that the "check your rifle" part at first has a lot to do with how comfortable the PH is with your gun handling later.

I have hunted Zambia, and the PH's I worked with wanted the chamber clear in the truck, but otherwise loaded to capacity with safety on when in the bush. Really no different than anywhere else with DG in the area.

The only guided hunt that I was asked to keep a clear chamber until the final stalk was moose hunting in AK. The guide told me that I had to do this for insurance reasons... I don't buy that, but suspect that he had more than a few sports with less than stellar gun handling and I know he talked about folks shooting his ATV or the plane with AD's. Fred's comment is that having a 7mm STW go off over your head in the gun rack while driving down a trail was, well, unpleasant.

I have heard the loaded chamber, decocked striker method of carry esposed by many old time hunters. Given that the firing pin is free to move, any sharp blow to the butt or muzzle could cause a discharge, and have had a few people who advocated this method later change their minds. I would think in a mountain setting this would be more of a concern than in Africa, but it sounds like the folks in NZ still do this. I always thought that the main reason for this was the areas I heard about it in were places that the Mauser rifle was predominant in- and the original Mauser safety was somewhat less than easily operated from a firing position.

My normal carry is empty chamber, rounds in the mag, bolt closed. If a potential shot is imminent, such as stalking through thick stuff, then I will load the rifle and apply the safety, and walk forward carefully with rifle in both hands and thumb on safety catch ready for use. However, there will be no-one in front of me then. I tried round chambered with bolt left up once, many years ago, but abandoned that idea as unsafe after I found the bolt had got closed (must have bumped it on a bush or something) and I was carrying around a loaded rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Here is the scenario

You are on your first African safari & using a bolt action magazine rifle.

You are NOT used to hunting with a group of trackers & PH (say 4 or 5 people in the group)

Chamber loaded - Bolt OPEN - ready to close bolt & shoot (Kiwi style)

There is a very good reason that only drew 2% vote. The fact is I own about thirty big bore bolt rifles, and not one of them will let a round stay in the chamber with the bolt open unless the barrel is pointed down at the ground. By the same token, with the rifle pointed down the bolt will run down against the chambered cartridge! The fact is the person who put that rule in the Mountain Safety Counsel's safety rules has not tried it under hunting conditions. I doubt Naki has tried it either!

A far better rule would be to simply leave the chamber empty with the bolt closed with magazine full up. Especially in New Zealand where there is no dangerous game and the mountains are perfect terrain for causing falls. I predict that anyone using this so-called Kiwi style in dangerous game bush will eventually close a bolt on an empty chamber at the wrong time, or not be able to close it because the rifle is full of bush trash.

I carry a bolt rifle with the chamber empty, bolt closed till the tracking gets close, then simply open the bolt, and slide a round in the chamber very quietly, safety on and the rifle carried port arms barrel up, or on the sling barrel up.

That was number one in the poll, but only drew 27 votes (22%), most 85 votes (70%) for bolt closed on a round safety on! conditions #1, and #5 are the only safe way, while #2 and %4 are very unsafe, and #3 is a pipe dream, and doesn't work with any bolt rifle I own!

When it all boils down to be safe, requires knowing where your rifle is pointed, nothing else works as well!

..........................................................................................

MacD37

A little misunderstanding here, the "kiwi" way is what we call half open bolt which means the bolt handle up which on a Lee Enfield or any other cock on closing action, sees the bolt retracted slightly with the cartridge head showing. On a Mauser or cock on opening action, the bolt does not retract and just needs the handle putting down on a hot chamber and the rifle is ready to go. The term half open bolt here or bolt handle up, does not mean the bolt retracted with a round sitting in the chamber which of course would just fall back out if the rifle were tilted and as you say, fill up the action with trash.

The half open bolt is one of the commonest AND safest methods of carrying a hot chambered firearm here and has been truly tried and tested under all conditions in NZ which match or exceed those found anywhere else in the World.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
MacD37

A little misunderstanding here, the "kiwi" way is what we call half open bolt which means the bolt handle up which on a Lee Enfield or any other cock on closing action, sees the bolt retracted slightly with the cartridge head showing. On a Mauser or cock on opening action, the bolt does not retract and just needs the handle putting down on a hot chamber and the rifle is ready to go. The term half open bolt here or bolt handle up, does not mean the bolt retracted with a round sitting in the chamber which of course would just fall back out if the rifle were tilted and as you say, fill up the action with trash.

Eagle, here is the problem! Every big bore bolt rifle I own is cocked on opening and are CRF actions. If the bolt handle is lifted on my rifles the bolt will slide fully open if the if the rifle is tipped butt down. This will let the cartridge in the chamber slide out. If the cartridge is left attached to the bolt in the CRF extractor, it will be ejected when the bold falls all the way back to the full open position. I have never, nor will I ever own a big bore bolt rifle that is not CRF, Or cock on closing, so maybe that is my problem with the Kiwi method.

The only safe way is with the chamber left empty and the magazine full with the bolt closed till you are ready to shoot. A quick stroke of the bolt and you are in business. Till then the rifle is as safe as it would be if the cartridges were at home.

I must simply be misunderstanding your description of the Kiwi carry, because it seem idiotic to me if I understand your description!

.........................................................................

If the bolt on Win Mod 70 or FN Mauser actioned rifle is lifted part way up and the trigger is pulled the bolt handle drops down and the rifle will fire! Don't do it!!!!!


465H&H

Mac

I am sure you have misunderstood the Kiwi carry! There is no way that a national sporting code would develop & publish such a practice (developed by very experienced shooters / hunters) that is "idiotic' as you call it!

You need to probably use your vast experience and knowledge to figure out how such a bolt position would work without the bullet falling out!

I am sure you will come up with a not so "idiotic" answer!

Oh ... I am happy to explain. All you need to do is ask.

You will carry your rifle in the manner your PH tells you.

Who the hell hunts with an empty rifle??? Not me! If the client is that careless put him along side of you or even better in front of you.
When would I hunt with an empty rifle when I am sitting waiting for groundhogs or sighting before hunt.
Safe gun handling is the name of the game.

Mike

Me too Saeed!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

on the other post, Fairgame said that he wanted his client behind him with an empty chamber. Are the "safety on" people going to tell Fairgame that he is wrong?

No, but I won't be hunting with him.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
If the bolt on Win Mod 70 or FN Mauser actioned rifle is lifted part way up and the trigger is pulled the bolt handle drops down and the rifle will fire! Don't do it!!!!!


465H&H

465H&H, Nobody is advocating having the bolt "half way up" just try it out for yourself, lift the bolt handle fully up on a chambered cartridge, the firing pin is held in the detent built into the rear of the bolt and cannot fire until the bolt is closed fully releasing the firing pin onto the sear where the trigger must be pulled to release the firing pin.

There are some slick actions, where if a round is chambered and the bolt is fully open i.e. drawn fully back and the rifle tipped forward while the trigger is pulled, that can fire as the bolt snaps shut. Of course if a bolt is snapped shut by hand on a hot chamber while the trigger is pulled it is possible that the rifle will fire. Some of your USA produced firearms have been known to fire if the trigger is pulled when the safety is on and then later released.

Moral of the story is keep your finger away from the trigger on any loaded firearm in what ever state it is in until you are absolutely ready to fire on a target. We all know the results of not doing this don't we!!!! (see one of the threads posted here on AR).

MacD37

The half open bolt or bolt handle fully up as we know them here is not intended to be used if one is waving the rifle all over the place, it is used when carrying in the hand where the muzzle can be kept in a safe direction and where the likely hood of engaging an animal is imminent.

This method provides a very safe carry irrespective of the type of safety and of course if one is going to sweep others in the party with a hot chamber then it is the safest next to an empty chamber.

I enjoy my hunting having hunted through out my own country, on buffalo and in Europe for a year under varying conditions and with hunters of varying experience in handling firearms and I want to come home after every hunt and I want to keep hunting for as long as I can, so I do not want some f....wit sweeping me with a round up the spout relying on a puny piece of metal as a safety, probably stroking the trigger every so often just to see if it is still there and then in the heat of the moment not knowing if the safety is on or off as he (or she) advances in a state of alert or alarm

Mac it is clear what I said went right over your head.
The point is ----
If you are so obsessed with your personal safety to extent of making such statements why would you hunt dangerous game?
If all of your planning, preparation, technology, knowledge and use of a PH takes all the danger out then you are no longer hunting dangerous game. You are just executing some wild animal and pretending it was something else.
No one talks like that about driving in rush hour traffic and it is just as dangerous.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
This kind of post is always strange to me.
If you are so concerned about your personal safety due to dangerous game why are you there?

Your thinking is far stranger to me! If you are hunting dangerous game, or hunting plains game in an area where there is a large population of dangerous game the only prudent thing to do is have a rifle that can handle what ever you run into, or get run into by them.

There are many animals that can only be hunted in areas that are populated by some of the bad boys as well. It is not fear that sets the rules but more a proper preparation for the area you are hunting in. You don't have to be overly concerned about your safety,to justify being properly armed, and taking note of what is around you when in dangerous game country.

Just like using your seat belt just in case you have a car accident!

Fear has nothing to do with it, if your not concerned about your safety when you drive, then why do you buckle your seat belt instead of just not driving?

You just need to be a little smarter than the average bear! If you are hunting in Buffalo/ elephant country, you need a buffalo/elephant capable rifle, even if you are only hunting KUDU. Of course I suppose you could just watch others hunt on TV!

Eagle21
What state is your rifle when you carry by sling?
Much of hunting requires you to transition back and forth between a rifle in the hand and binoculars which means the rifle is carried by sling. The half open bolt does not work with some bolt gun if the muzzle is pointed skyward. With some other designs the half open bolt is not possible.

One thing I am not doing is putting a round in any rifle, pulling the trigger and closing the action. That can lead to very dangerous gun handling habits.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Eagle21
What state is your rifle when you carry by sling?
Much of hunting requires you to transition back and forth between a rifle in the hand and binoculars which means the rifle is carried by sling. The half open bolt does not work with some bolt gun if the muzzle is pointed skyward. With some other designs the half open bolt is not possible.

One thing I am not doing is putting a round in any rifle, pulling the trigger and closing the action. That can lead to very dangerous gun handling habits.

SR4759, thats a question with a sting in the tail which leads to a debate on its own in terms of having a sling on a DG rifle.
I did use a sling on mine when buffalo hunting and didn't have any issues and would do so again except now I use a plain nylon sling that has a simple slide adjustment for length which allows me to tighten it up when carrying by hand and it does not flap around under the rifle, or lengthen it right out to allow the rifle to be carried over the back when needing two hands to negotiate rough country. Lengthened halfway to carry on the shoulder. The sling is cheap, strong and quickly with adjustable with one hand to any position (it may not be a glamourous enough sling for those that like fancy leather or whatever else but it is most practical).

As to the rifle, if carrying by sling on the shoulder then there is no imminent need for the rifle to be loaded so I carry chamber empty. If in the area where game is being stalked then I carry in the hand with hot chamber and bolt up (not open). When carrying one handed my thumb sits on the bolt body so even if 'flailing' the rifle around the bolt cannot open.

I hate hunting with binoculars, or any other thing, hanging round my neck so they will be in the top pocket of my day pack. I use the scope for spotting when on the move and binos when seated and scanning an area. If I was being guided, then the PH would be doing the assessing with binos, not me, I would be just be ready to shoot WHEN instructed

The kiwi half bolt system was initially brought in when the majority of hunters had the choice of a Lee Enfield, or a Lee Enfield. Thier ''safety's'' are notoriously bad. So the half bolt option was the best alternative and the method has stuck with many of us. A rifle of Mauser type has a position between cocked and open where the bolt will sit qutte snug and it can be carried with a hand over the trigger guard and thumb over the bolt. It is extremely quick to be ready. My belief is it was never meant as a system of just carrying a firearm, and I would never sling a half cocked rifle on my back. It is solely intended for when game is imminent and you are in full control of the rifle and bolt. In the kiwi bush though, this can be a state of ready ness for many hours.
For me, if I was hunting dangerous game, I would be in more trouble using the safety, as the method is so foreign. I would in all likely hood pull the trigger and be confused as to why the rifle didn't fire for some part of a second or two. The other thing that is taught here, is that only the person in front should carry a round in the chamber. My personnel view given such training, is that I would be happiest with an empty chamber behind the pH, knowing how quickly I can react and that the chance of everything going wrong being very slim.