Here is the scenario

You are on your first African safari & using a bolt action magazine rifle.

You are NOT used to hunting with a group of trackers & PH (say 4 or 5 people in the group)

Question:
How will you carry your rifle?

Choices:
Chamber empty - rounds in magazine - Bolt closed
Chamber loaded - Bolt closed UNcocked - ready to lift & close bolt shoot
Chamber loaded - Bolt OPEN - ready to close bolt & shoot (Kiwi style)
Round in chamber safety OFF ready to shoot
Round in chamber safety ON ready switch safety & to shoot

 

"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."

let me give you some background.

The other thread has a lot of opinions about muzzle direction & loaded / safety on .... etc.

Here in NZ we follow a practice recommended by the Mountain Safety council

1. I never use the safety!
2.a. We are in the hunting area and load a round in the chamber
b. We do not close the bolt but keep the bolt partly open – meaning not fully forward
c. When we are ready to shoot we close the bolt, aim & fire – I close the bolt as I shoulder the rile & it takes no extra time.
3. If I am following someone, the muzzle will be pointed up so that I do not move the barrel across someone’s back!

A major point to note is that here in NZ the hills are very steep and very rugged – lots of small wrinkled gullies, ridges and slips at very short intervals – every 10 yards sometimes. The bush can be very thick and it is possible to trip or slip (wet conditions are normal) at least 2 or 3 times each day of hunting. I suspect that the Mountain Safety training recommendation of an open bolt is to avoid any accidents from dropping a loaded rifle in case of a fall.

I realise that the above practices might be unusual and even a concern to you & your PHs.

I would not run around africa with a open bolt.

Dirt, dust and a lot of other stuff can get in.

You will be shooting off sticks anyway - so I would follow andrew/fairgame advice and load the round as you get on the sticks or carry it on safe.

I'd simply follow the recommendation of the PH. the PH is in charge of safety so its their preference as far as I'm concerned.

If on the off chance he's looser in the safety dept than you, why not verbalize an alternative? He says, "Load the chamber, close the bolt, safety off while in the truck." You offer, "Howz about magazine full, nothing in the chamber?". He says, "Chamber full, safety on while walking." You don't like that so you offer, "Chamber empty/ full, magazine full, safety on or off/"

Simple and non confrontational conversation with the PH is better than what we on AR think the PH may or may not say.

Scott has the right idea: ask the PH.

My personal preference is full mag, empty chamber. It just happened that was the way my PH preferred it on my safari. When the PH tells me to I chamber up a round. Normally that's about 500 yards away.

A friend of mine is a "former" Army SF guy (*we all know they never really retire...). He's a full-mag, chambered round, safety on kinda guy. We were doing a bit of hunting in Texas and at one point he hands me his rifle and says to shoot this pig out there. First thing I did was eject a cartridge into the dirt, not knowing how he carried the rifle.

"Well, what good is carrying a rifle then anyway?" was his comment. Always ready for action was his meaning. It was a great lesson in knowing to ASK first and get it out of the way.

I'm glad to see that 64% of respondents know what they're doing with a rifle in dangerous country. As to the rest of you, well, we wouldn't be hunting together anyway, but when you get hit, just remember, you have no one to blame but yourself.

BTW, when I hunted the North and South Islands I never heard of the Mountain Safety Council; probably a good thing.

I fully agree with Scott.

That is exactly what I have done - One year in advance I have asked the question with almost exact words from the post & I am happy with the PH's reply. Since that was a private message I am not posting it.

There is no one right way.

on the other post, Fairgame said that he wanted his client behind him with an empty chamber. Are the "safety on" people going to tell Fairgame that he is wrong?

Lionhunter, you will hear of the Mountain Safety council if you apply for a gun license in NZ and take the required test! They have some very experience people with immense knowledge in bush craft, survival, search & rescue as well as use of fire arms.

quote:

on the other post, Fairgame said that he wanted his client behind him with an empty chamber. Are the "safety on" people going to tell Fairgame that he is wrong?

No, but I won't be hunting with him.

In fifty years of packing weapons, I've covered a lot of ground in many different scenarios. Like posted before, there is no hard and fast "right way" as many different problems can arise. If hunting PG I believe I always have time to chamber a round, or get on the animal again if I screw it up making noise the first time. In DG country, such as heavy jess, with poor visibility I carry loaded with safety on and the rifle is in my hands. Not over the shoulder aimed at your back or head, or hanging at my side pointing at your butt. I shudder every time I see that stupid Africa carry, and everyone pointing guns at each other.

Here in the mountains our seasons are typically in snow and ice, and I always have an empty chamber until I'm ready to shoot. I've seen people lose their footing and bust their ass just mere steps away from the truck. But then again, I've never run into a pissed off buffalo or elephant in Idaho.

Since my Africa "bolt action" rifle is a Blaser, it gets a round in the chamber and the safety is on but, really, an R 93 in my opinion, is more like a pump action rifle than a bolt action rifle.

When hunting with the usual bolt action rifle, there would be no round in the chamber until shooting appeared to be imminent.

how do you determine what is "imminent" in jesse with a visibility of maybe 10 feet and you are tracking elephant/buff????

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
how do you determine what is "imminent" in jesse with a visibility of maybe 10 feet and you are tracking elephant/buff????

If the PH tells you to load and make ready, you load and make ready. I'm not sure I see a problem here.

There's a lot of walking in hunting where a chambered rifle is a potential liability with no perceived benefit. Like walking 500 yards from a vehicle to the point where a final stalk might begin (which is where one would load and make ready).

The question of "being in imminent danger" - well, I would expect the PH had enough brains to tell you to make ready. If the PH didn't I'd hope the hunter had enough brains to make a point of the question.

quote:

Originally posted by rnovi:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
how do you determine what is "imminent" in jesse with a visibility of maybe 10 feet and you are tracking elephant/buff????

If the PH tells you to load and make ready, you load and make ready. I'm not sure I see a problem here.

There's a lot of walking in hunting where a chambered rifle is a potential liability with no perceived benefit. Like walking 500 yards from a vehicle to the point where a final stalk might begin (which is where one would load and make ready).

The question of "being in imminent danger" - well, I would expect the PH had enough brains to tell you to make ready. If the PH didn't I'd hope the hunter had enough brains to make a point of the question.

I don't think the PH would have any sort of premonition when an animal will attack.

He gets out of the truck, chambers a round into his rifle, and so I.

We have been doing it for over 30 years in Africa, and never had any problems.

Naki:

Gun safety is the same anywhere in the world, NZ is no different to Africa.

However the scenario is far different in Africa where the dangers of an encounter with DG is far greater than in NZ and walking around with a half-cocked rifle in your hands is not exactly recommended for a number of reasons.

A loaded firearm does not discharge of its own accord.

I'm with Saeed on this one. Every PH I've hunted with has asked me to load the rifle, chamber and all, and put the safety on, upon leaving the cruiser. This is especially the case in dangerous game country. Any PH that advises otherwise in DG country, will not be taking me hunting.

That makes3 of us as we'll! Gun is loaded whenever we leave the vehicle, with safety on .
I sling both my double as well as bolt gun, not a big fan of the African carry at all. When we are stalking in I remove the slings.

Cheers
Nick

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm with Saeed on this one. Every PH I've hunted with has asked me to load the rifle, chamber and all, and put the safety on, upon leaving the cruiser. This is especially the case in dangerous game country. Any PH that advises otherwise in DG country, will not be taking me hunting.

Plus 1 for me as well.

For all of you betting your PH/trackers life on a mechanical safety, perhaps you should look into Remingtons issues/lawsuits and the multiple people who have been killed/maimed by those "safeties".

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm with Saeed on this one. Every PH I've hunted with has asked me to load the rifle, chamber and all, and put the safety on, upon leaving the cruiser. This is especially the case in dangerous game country. Any PH that advises otherwise in DG country, will not be taking me hunting.

Stu Taylor for one?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
[QUOTE]


Stu Taylor for one?

I think a finger on the trigger and a total loss of muzzle control was responsible for this one!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm with Saeed on this one. Every PH I've hunted with has asked me to load the rifle, chamber and all, and put the safety on, upon leaving the cruiser. This is especially the case in dangerous game country. Any PH that advises otherwise in DG country, will not be taking me hunting.

Agreed.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm with Saeed on this one. Every PH I've hunted with has asked me to load the rifle, chamber and all, and put the safety on, upon leaving the cruiser. This is especially the case in dangerous game country. Any PH that advises otherwise in DG country, will not be taking me hunting.

Put me with Saeed, Todd and others on this one. I do think it would be good to check with your PH's on his preference as Scott suggested. Walking around in the African bush other than on a fenced game ranch with no DG with an empty chamber makes no sense to me. I've hunted with 16 different PH's and they all wanted magazine full, one in the chamber and safety ON.

Mark

I've always listened to the PH and without fail, they have all told me to load up, chamber and put the safety on. I wasn't comfortable with it the first couple of times but did as they asked. Now, it's just the rule of thumb. It's different if you're on a concession for plains game and don't have an issue with buffalo or cats but in Zim or Moz, the rifle is ready.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm with Saeed on this one. Every PH I've hunted with has asked me to load the rifle, chamber and all, and put the safety on, upon leaving the cruiser. This is especially the case in dangerous game country. Any PH that advises otherwise in DG country, will not be taking me hunting.

Put me with Saeed, Todd and others on this one. I do think it would be good to check with your PH's on his preference as Scott suggested. Walking around in the African bush other than on a fenced game ranch with no DG with an empty chamber makes no sense to me. I've hunted with 16 different PH's and they all wanted magazine full, one in the chamber and safety ON.

Mark

Seems logical to me guys.

If you're hunting DG, or where you could easily encounter them, and your gun is unloaded - why carry one at all? Heck, let the tracker carry it - after all, most of us can "easily" outrun those guys!!!

After sighting the rifles and demonstrating to the PH that I know which end of a rifle is which I ask his preference. It usually goes like this and this is how I normally operate.
In the truck- mag loaded, chamber empty
Get off the truck- chamber a round and safety on
On the sticks- safety off
If you move off the sticks- safety back on
If the PH desires some other scenario we discuss it.

If I am hunting (that means I am off vehicle/horse/etc. and looking to kill something), the firearm is loaded, safety on, finger off of trigger and I control my muzzle at all times. That means I do not point it at anyone or wave it around on my shoulder. If I am not hunting, the firearm is cleared and I display the fact to everyone with me and case the gun if possible, or at least leave the open chamber displayed. Even then I control my muzzle and keep my finger off of the trigger. I have no problem clearing my firearm as needed due to crossing obstacles, terrain, etc. I will never hand a loaded firearm to someone nor will I accept one. (I am surprised that rnovi's SF guy friend would do that.)

Of course there are exceptions to everything, but good communication, muzzle control and keeping your finger off of the trigger should not be forgotten when those exceptions apply. These rules are simple and will work no matter what or where you are hunting. People who cannot do those simple tasks with no stress or danger do not become "better and safer" when you add stress, danger, limited visibility, etc.

I will not hunt with anyone that cannot control their muzzle or habitually tickles their triggers. I see these unsafe habits on hunting shows quite often. Communication is very important. I will always listen to my guide/PH and I discuss gun safety with him prior to the hunt. This has always worked for me.

Interesting results and comments

I'm with Saeed on this one. Every PH I've hunted with has asked me to load the rifle, chamber and all, and put the safety on, upon leaving the cruiser. This is especially the case in dangerous game country. Any PH that advises otherwise in DG country, will not be taking me hunting.
That is correct.

On the other Hand:
It is "my hunt" and I have to discuss this with the PH (or in my case I go -if it is possible- an my own) and we find toghter an solution.

If it is an true hunter (with expirience) the gun is loaded and safety.
That is the only way.

PG - no round in chamber
DG - round in chamber safety on
As simple as that.
Let's not try to make it any more complicated then it needs to be.
First time or 50th times.
Safety of handling guns should be first in nature, that means barrel pointed safest direction possible and good idea is to discuss it with everyone in group ( PH, trackers, companions etc. )
Any other way and you don't belong in the woods period even if it is in Iowa or Hawaii.
That being said, there is always the possibility of accidents no matter how careful we are trying to be ( excitement, adrenalin, dangerous situations that require such fast actions, your brain stays behind, yelling, screaming, hell, you name it ) let's not forget that.
All our lives we live fractions from death every day.
Life is definitely dangerous profession.
Let's leave it at that.

Round in chamber. Safety on until ready to squeeze trigger. Hell, I never knew there was another way to carry a rifle while hunting.

Plainsgame - empty chamber safety on. When we spot game and begin a stalk, I'll ask the PH if he wants me to load the chamber. If we are just walking around, I strongly prefer to keep the chamber empty. There is nothing a game ranch that would require and immediate shot from me. If this causes me to miss a monster wildebeest, kudu or impala,..mehh who cares. I've already shot my fair share.

Dangerous Game - Loaded Chamber safety on. Like other said, I wouldn't hunt with a PH that wanted me to walk around with an empty chamber. We have had several close run ins with DG in the bush.

There are different ways to carry depending on the terrain, type of rifle, and the chance of encountering a sudden attack by a dangerous animal.

If I’m hunting with a bolt action in an area where dangerous game exists, and the terrain is fairly open I will usually have the chamber empty with the magazine full. If the terrain gets tighter the chamber will be loaded, and the safety on, with the rifle slung, barrel up. If it gets tighter yet the rifle will then come off the shoulder, and carried port arms across the chest barrel up, with thumb on the safety button finger off the trigger.

The fact is, I rarely hunt in dangerous game country, for dangerous game with a bolt action rifle! My rifle is most often a double rifle, and it requires some different carry/loading habits. Again if the terrain is fairly open I may carry the rifle loaded with the safety on, and on a sling, barrels up. If the terrain gets tighter The rifle will come off the shoulder and usually have the sling removed, then carried port arms safety still on till needed. The so-called “PH CARRY” is not as dangerous as some seem to think! It can be used quite safely, loaded with the safety on.

Most who cuss this type of carry are simply talking out of a different orifice because their HEAD should know better.

The method of carry is only dangerous if the carrier is sweeping others in the party. If carried PH style the barrels are not pointed at the person in front of the carrier, but at a 45 degree angle to the side that the rifle is being carried on.

If changing shoulders, the barrels are lifted high and swung over the top of the carrier’s head to the other shoulder and the barrels passed to the other hand. The rifle’s barrels are held, naturally, pointed at a 45 degree angle off the side it is on.

When the bush gets tighter, or the stalk begins to get close the rifle is then removed from the shoulder and carried port arm across the shooter’s chest safety ON with the thumb on the safety till the last second before shooting.

With either type of rifle, the chambers must be cleared before climbing over any obstacle, or jumping a stream, as was made clear by the dropping of a loaded double rifle that went fired shooting off the arm of a young PH this year. Carried properly making sure the rifle is never pointed at anyone any form of carry is safe! The PH carry has been practiced for generations with a very small instance of mishap. No matter the method of carry, the key is being aware of where your rifle is pointing!
.......................................................................

Thanks a lot guys - 24 hours and over 1000 views! Lots of useful comments.

Let me do a quick review of what I have learned and some other thoughts.

1. Only 2 other Kiwis around!
2. Two people must be very lonely hunters - they walk around with a loaded rifle & safety OFF! DIY hunt in Cameroun I suppose??
3. Fairgame has lots of clients or potential ones! (BTW that includes me Andrew - may be next time!)
4. Finally to the 69% of the people - those who load the chamber and safety ON - how many of you are really Fist time Safari guys? (Please read OP.) LOL!

I think the factor of personal experience and preference is a big factor.

Here are my current thoughts...

1. If I was hunting with my 7 lbs scoped Kimber Montana I would walk all day with the bolt half open Kiwi style. But the 9.5 lbs CZ 416 Rigby may not be as comfortable for such a carry.
2. Since I have never hunted with 4 or 5 others around me, I would be quite concerned about muzzle orientation & plain comfort level ....
3. What are the chances that I will miss an opportunity on a really nice old gnarly wrinkled Dugga Boy if I walked around with an empty chamber? My personal view is that the tracker will know we are close & the PH will ask me to chamber a round as the action might be fast ... That is what I hope.


Some more thoughts ....

I am paranoid about the safety going OFF because of the thick bush. I wish the rifle had a tang safety like the old Rugers - then my old habits of hunting with a shotgun in India would kick in. The twenty year old habit was to keep pushing the safety back even subconsciously.

I am currently reading John Taylor's book on African Rifles & cartridges. There is an incident he writes about a gun bearer carrying his hammer DR & had the right hammer cocked twice while just walking in the bush. Taylor got annoyed and took over the rifle. After some time he noticed that the hammer was cocked during his carry as well!

My current plan is to carry with empty chamber and load one up the spout when the PH says so.

Sorry to my Kiwi mates, I have switched sides!

MacD37

quote:

If I’m hunting with a bolt action in an area where dangerous game exists, and the terrain is fairly open I will usually have the chamber empty with the magazine full. If the terrain gets tighter the chamber will be loaded, and the safety on, with the rifle slung, barrel up. If it gets tighter yet the rifle will then come off the shoulder, and carried port arms across the chest barrel up, with thumb on the safety button finger off the trigger.

Absolutely the best way to carry your rifle.

Location dictates whether your rifle is loaded or not. The tight jesse of the Zambezi or foreboding swamps would warrant a bullet in the chamber. Another would be walking up the fresh spoor of Buffalo or Elephant.

Otherwise I am of the camp that a loaded rifle is a potential hazard.

An unprovoked attack by an animal is a very rare occurrence indeed and game is not dangerous unless you harass it.

Client safety is a PH job and each of us have our own rules, rules that are normally dictated by location and specific conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

............
I am currently reading John Taylor's book on African Rifles & cartridges. There is an incident he writes about a gun bearer carrying his hammer DR & had the right hammer cocked twice while just walking in the bush. Taylor got annoyed and took over the rifle. After some time he noticed that the hammer was cocked during his carry as well! ..........

Old Pondoro was known to be a bit of a bullshitter and I would take that part of the story with a generous pinch of salt.

It would take some very heavy handed "brushing" to cock a hammer action DR !!

P.S.

I have two such rifles in my showcase and out of curiosity have just tried cocking the both and "guesstimated" a required pressure of no less than 5lbs on each !

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
4. Finally to the 69% of the people - those who load the chamber and safety ON - how many of you are really Fist time Safari guys? (Please read OP.) LOL!

I think the factor of personal experience and preference is a big factor.

Naki, certainly experience with using firearms, teaches what works and what doesn't. The fact is, most first time safari clients are not rookies to hunting with all kinds of firearms, and in all kinds of terrain.

The other thing one needs to consider is, Africa is not the only place in the world where dangerous game is found. I've been in places along the Mulchatna River in Alaska where the alders are so thick you can't see three feet in front of you, then stumble onto a covered Brown bear kill. I can assure you, if you know anything about brown bears, that will cause your ass to bite button hole in your underwear!

Brownies normally lay up near a covered kill to guard it. That is even a better reason to have a rifle chamber loaded with the safety on, than following a cape buffalo or elephant fresh spoor, and that IMO, is a justifying reason to have the chamber, or chambers loaded with the safety on, and the rifle in your hands, not on a sling!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

............
I am currently reading John Taylor's book on African Rifles & cartridges. There is an incident he writes about a gun bearer carrying his hammer DR & had the right hammer cocked twice while just walking in the bush. Taylor got annoyed and took over the rifle. After some time he noticed that the hammer was cocked during his carry as well! ..........

Old Pondoro was known to be a bit of a bullshitter and I would take that part of the story with a generous pinch of salt.

It would take some very heavy handed "brushing" to cock a hammer action DR !!

P.S.

I have two such rifles in my showcase and out of curiosity have just tried cocking the both and "guesstimated" a required pressure of no less than 5lbs on each !

I agree with Fugo on this one! Taylor's comment above is either a fabrication or he had a hammer double with very weak hammer springs!

..................................................................

This kind of post is always strange to me.
If you are so concerned about your personal safety due to dangerous game why are you there?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I'm glad to see that 64% of respondents know what they're doing with a rifle in dangerous country. As to the rest of you, well, we wouldn't be hunting together anyway, but when you get hit, just remember, you have no one to blame but yourself.

BTW, when I hunted the North and South Islands I never heard of the Mountain Safety Council; probably a good thing.

I think an experienced ph will know pretty quick which clients are used to carrying firearms and which ones are not. Generally I can tell as soon as someone pcks up a rifle whether I want them carrying with a round in the chamber.

First time safari? Then YOU be responsible for your firearm, after receiving direction from your PH. If he wants it loaded or unloaded, based on his assessment of your skill/experience level, so be it.

If you are not comfortable carrying a loaded rifle, one in chamber, safety on, might I suggest, with a bolt gun, to hold the trigger down, with muzzle in safe direction, while closing the bolt. You will have then a round in the chamber, safety OFF, that only needs a bolt lift and drop to be ready to shoot. The rifle will be loaded, with a round in the chamber, but it is very difficult to make it go off like that. This is my personal preferred method of carry on M70 or Mauser type actions, unless hot on the track of some DG type critter. It's still very quick and or quiet if the rifle need be brought in action quickly.

I already have a habit of press-checking when getting on the sticks - click, is a very loud sound, when you expect BANG! For me then, not a lot of movement or time is extra, if I am half opening the bolt anyway. Your mileage may vary.