Ok, lets wait for Ray's report on the subject...enough now that the man would give them a try...that is a very good intellectual position and deserves credit!!

Considering the weight of the 45-70 lever guns, and I've shot a Wild West co-pilot, but w/ 400 gr medium loads, I'd say anyone that can shooter the 45-70 with monster loads, can handle a 375 as well, and likely a 416. As is often hashed out, there is a quantum leap in recoil between the 416, and the 458's and larger. Personally, I'd take a 416 over a 45-70, any day, anywhere, any game.

Yes, certainly a good hit with a 45-70 is better then a gut shot with a 577. Makes me think of the Weatherby video SCI sends out, where they are testing the new 416, and after Boddington drops his with one shot, the young Weatherby lad obviously gut shoots his, and has to fire a finishing shot.

Meplat,
Obviously you have not shot a "hot loaded" 45-70 in a very light Guide gun Marlin carbine!! The recoil is right up there with the "butt stompers" I assure you...They certainly kick as hard as my 450-400-3" double (10.5 Lbs.) so I doubt that is an equasion in this conversation....

Noone can argue when bullet placement is correct that most guns will kill a Buffalo, but thats not important..What is inportant is when things go south, and they do even for the best of shots, then is when one gets himself or his PH in a world of sh--t..

An example is one time I shot a Buffalo and got the bullet went through and spanked another unbeknow to us...As we were trailing up the one I shot first the other made a sudden apearance, needless to say under a hail of gunfire from 3 big doubles..It was a charge, but lasted only two steps..My point is it could have worked out differently had the second bull held his hidden position another 10 seconds, then it would have been in our lap...

I'm not argueing that a 45-70 will kill a Buffalo, I have killed them with a 7x57, 308 Win and a 300 H&H, but I certainly don't consider any of thoes guns Buffalo guns and to shoot Buff with such armament is foolish and to that I plead guilty....Now if OJ and the rest of these guilty guys would plead likewise we could go on to bigger and better things...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Wrong my friend I do have a Guide Gun and have shot 540 gr bullets at at 1500 from it. Also have an Encore Pistol in 45/70 and have pushed 540's at 1600 from 15 inches. Also had a 458 Win Mag 15 incher for my Encore until some idiot stole it along with a 44 mag revolver. But you still didn't answer my question did you? Which would you rather have a good shot with a hot 45/70 or a scared poopless shooter with a shoulder fired cannon? The 458 Mag in a rifle kicks harder than a Guide Gun. I KNOW. Even the size of some cartridges intimidate some people I don't care if a muzzle brake is used and the recoil is reduced. We must always remember that most shooters when facing hard kickers CANNOT shoot them well. That means that there is a good chance that they will make a bad shot which will get them into more trouble than using something somewhat smaller and placing their shot well. Even Keith said use the heaviest caliber you can handle. Key words [that you can handle]. Even he knew that just because he could take a butt kicking from a big gun doesn't mean that other people can. If you can so much the better. You can follow up the gut shot Cape that a flinching client belts in the bread basket or the behind. But that is why you make the big bucks right. Just something to think about when the next power debate comes up. If someone can handle a 700 Nitro and wants to go Whitetail hunting I am all for it but they would be far and few inbetween in my opinion. Have a good day.

Mep,
Which would I rather have a hunter with a 45-70 or a "scared poopless shooter" with a whatever....

After some 30 years in the hunt consultant and guiding business, I have yet to deal with the scared of his gun shooter, believe it or not...I suppose if a client pays the price for a 21 day Safari with me he makes it a point to learn to shoot well...Actually 99.9% Americans shoot very well, I don't know where the assumption that most hunters are poor shots and incompetents, that has not been my experience..I've been told by PH's its the Germans and Spanards that shoot poorly, probably because they are so restricted in shooting...dunno.

Anyway I don't see that has anything to do with the discussion as I have stated above emphatically that bullet placement is certainly necessary...

The whole issue here is if the 45-70 is a capable stopper when things go wrong...Anyone knows it will kill a Buffalo as I also stated above when I said I had killed Buffalo with lesser calibers than the 45-70...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray; Where would you rate the 375 H&H as a rifle for buffalo? Is it too anemic for them? I know that a 700 Nitro would be better but could it be used? It is fairly small and with only a 300 gr bullet it doesn't have the weight or caliber to do the job I would assume. What about it?

I have read this thread with interest as I am sure others have. However it seems to me that part of the dilema/mystique that surrounds this cartridge stems from the wider than normal loadings that are available for it.

If one views it in its traditional sense, it is a black powder low velocity round, which whilst effective on game, would never be suitable for the dangerous variety.

If you progress to Marlin type weapons it becomes able to handle hotter nitro loads, and becomes suitable for most large game out to around 200yrds.

The debate starts when you look at some of the custom Rifles built around this Caliber, namely the Siamese Mausers and those based on the P14 action which are often mated to Heavy barrels. Here the pressures go through the roof (as does Recoil) and freeboring only adds to the ability to cram more powder into the already stretched case. Here we are but a whisker from the .458 Win Mag, and you have a cartridge that will truly throw a large lump of lead of heavy bore at any animal that should find itself in your sights.

The problem is this - should one ever have the privilege to face a Cape Buffalo in the field, what would you want to be armed with? Yes you may do your bit, and you may have every confidence, but we have all read of those tales of Cape Buffalo haven't we?. Do we really want to be armed with an upper limit round at its peak capacity to save our lives, or would you rather have a larger case which would be cruising at the kind of velocities the .45-70 is straining at? Frankly, I am a great fan of the .45-70. I am in the process of having a custom rifle built in the caliber as we speak. However I do wonder when engaging animals in the top five, if not a little more Power is required. I have no doubt that the round has the potential to kill every animal on earth, but whether it would stop a Cape in full charge at 25yds is not something I would want to chance.

[This message has been edited by AWB (edited 07-24-2001).]

AWB: The point is this charging whatever has been brought up about Brown Bears and Grizzles with handguns. When faced with a charging Buffalo a charging Bear shot placement is of primary importance. That is it in a nutshell. Considering the time a Buffalo or Bear can cover 25 yds you have time to get off one good shot and that is about it. This idea of giving rapid fire with anything approaching stopping power is generally faulty in itself. Watch people try to give rapid fire and hit a paper target and see what they can do with a 458 or something bigger. Also this applies to a powerful handgun. Most people will be lucky to make reasonable hits at all much less the brain or spine. A randon hit in the gut or the blowing off of a horn will not stop an animal that is adrenalin pumped. You may turn him or you may not; only placement will matter. If an animal is wounded and you have the drop on him then you can also place your shot with anything that you are not afraid of. So mega power is not that important in that situation right. What makes me cringe is when someone says they have no problem with a person using a 375; then saying the Taylor Knock Out Theory is correct, and then DOWN the 45/70 which has more TKO than the 375 makes me wonder about them. Look up some of the posts people make and tell me if I'm wrong.

Hang on a mo, from these pages I have learnt that a buffalo charges head up and that to be certain of stopping him at 25yards (stated distance) you have to shoot on the nose and said bullet has to then travel through a serious amount of bone (and or teeth) in order to hit the brain. The bullet not only has to hit the right place it has to stay together and most importantly not deviate.

So this is one scenario where it would appear that bullet placement is next to worthless without attendant bullet performance.

Amazing what you learn here, next I might find out how to shoot straight .

Ray, this is straying just a bit from the topic .... I'm curious about the buff you shot with the 7x57. What was the load, conditions of the shot and reaction of the buff?

Meplat,
I consider the 375 absolute minium and only then with solids because of its wonderfull penitration..It is not a stopping round..

TsJ,
one was a 175 gr. round nose solid in the nose as he looked directly at me. the same with a shoulder shot followed by 3 going away shots to the rearend, went 250 yds. I also observed an elephant shot with a simuliar load in the shoulder...He went about 2 miles but I was amazed at the blood trail as it was more than sufficient..A finisher to the brain...Sometimes these guns are used on culling when nothing else is available...You can use them or stay home and noone wants to stay home when there are Buff to be culled or permits to clean up....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Another situation some of you don't take into consideration when picking a Buffalo caliber and that is do you want to kill it yourself or let the PH give you a helping hand...If you use a 375 or smaller, a lot of your buffalo may end up being shot by the PH...I wouldn't like that much if I were paying the big bucks....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com