The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Of 45/70's and BuffGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Of 45/70's and Buff | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Well I have campaigned against the 45-70 as hard as anybody, but I have never shot a Buffalo with a 45-70 and I hear great tales of penitration in various substances by a lot of folks, including one test wherein it out penitrated the 458, 416 Rem and the 375 with a hard lazer made bullet and did so by about 15"'s...I am suspect of such brash statments, even though these folks were well known in the gun industry.... Guess I'm just going to have to borrow one on Jim Brockmans fancy 45-70's and shoot a couple of the Black bulls and draw a more accruate conclusion..... ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
As harald said a huge amount of buffalo and other big game were taken with calibres we regard as sub standard. "But these guys like selous etc. were 'experts who picked their shots'" Sheesh! I get sick of hearing that. When they started out I bet they were just rednecks in a strange country like the rest of us when we go to africa.And crap shots like the average guy. We all have to start somewhere. So if someone wants to follow in their footsteps and learn the hard way(as long as it is legal)then let them work it out for themselves.They have a precedent to do so. "We have a responsibiliy to use the most power available to finish off this grand noble beast because it deserves it" Personally,I don't think the buff gives a shit what it gets hit with.Shooting it is not doing it any damn favours with any calibre.Were killing it for christ's sake, not giving it a manicure. As long as we've got a P.H handy to keep things safe and legal 100% of the time, who cares what you hit it with. The one proviso is the PH does have the last say in what goes. Karl. | |||
|
| one of us |
Andy, These guys are shooting flat nosed 540 gr. lasered bullets at about 1600 fps and making claims of shooting through Buffalo end to end, and exiting, leaving a 3" exit hole, breaking both shoulders and exiting... I'd bet my a$$ and half of Georgia they won't do that. Maybe a 50 MG with a solid... Keep in mind that these guys are experts in their field, maybe their field is top layer with BS...but I suppose from the reaction we get on these forums someone buys the hype and the guns... ------------------ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Andy, Remington's 45-70 core-Lokt ammo is still . . . well, lets just say "inferior". Shot a boar in Louisiana with some and it blew to pieces on the animals shoulder bone. Granted, it stopped the animal but the .45 cal roundball the boar required from my Ruger Old Army cap and ball penetrated much better. Where do you and your friends hunt buff? I was thinking I might journey up to the Northwest Territories for Wood Bison this winter. JohnTheGreek | |||
|
| <ED GENTRY> |
It just comes down to respect for the animal.We all know that M-2 machine gun or even a FN-MAG would be the best for taking all the ivory in the world.But Bell used a 7x57 so that must be best.Somebody tring to sell a 12cal. pissant will also take ivory.It realy just comes down to respect.Handguns,bows are just a stunt on VERY LARGE GAME.We as hunters do not need the stunts.Just go to New Mexico after bow season on Elk you will know what I mean. ED GENTRY | ||
|
| <Andy> |
Ray, A 540 hard cast might penetrate 1/3 more than a 400 at same velocity assuming you can keep it point forward. (Since its 1/3 heavier). Is a 540 at 1600 a 45-70 though? I dont think so. Part of the charm of vintage firearms is simply that you have to be a good hunter and make up for thier limitaitons of range and power. Its like hunting rock chucks with a sub sonic 22 rim fire instead of a .223. It can be done but you have to have good stalking skills and be able to judge range. I guess I would not consider that 540 gr to be a 45-70. The Single Action Shooting Society (SAS) limits velocity to 1400 fps I think. John, I did not hunt bison. I butchered them. Raised them for over 30 years. My freinds, one of who works at Dillon, shot in North or South Dakota, I dont recall which, but can find out for you and post later here. Andy | ||
|
one of us |
Jim, 100% agree with your comments...the most rationale I ever read on this matter. We have lots of "fundamentalists" on this forum, and of course this is fun, but the real true is what JJ is expressing in very clear and polite terms. Bullet placement, not bullet performance is what first of all puts game down...no doubt about this, at least in my poor mind and less experience. I'm amazed to discover hoy many "old time hunters" in the good ol' days in Africa and India killed so many dangerous game, wit cartridges that by today's standards should be called underrated...by who ?? the animals ?? sure not... So, lets go back to basics, the 45/70 with a very good premium bullet is more than enough if the hunter takes that 30 seconds and becomes a good shooter to do his trick. IMHO, | |||
|
| one of us |
This old put any bullet in the right place has been beat to death, when in fact that is not allways correct... I have seen one Buffalo take 9 470 NE. rounds all in the right spots, another took 13 with a 470 and 500, Jack Lott got tossed by a bull full of good shots and I could name a few more who suffered this delima.. I have a few old African books (circa 1800 and 1900) and they seem to shoot everything a dozen of so times, so lets get the "facts" seperated from the myths....especiall thoes that are relying on what they hear and read and have never delt with an adrenaline pumped Cape Buffalo.. You want to hunt Buffalo with a 22 L.R. then thats your business, have at it, but it sure ain't good business, neither is the 45-70. I may have a crack at it just to prove to myself I'm right and that ain't smart either, but I've done worse...but, I have never kidded myself as some on here do. ------------------ | |||
|
| one of us |
I do adore the 45/70 and do not doubt that it is capable of taking a buffalo given the proper load/projectile and if wielded by an experienced African hunter. It just seems to me that when going to Africa to hunt dangerous game one should use a DANGEROUS GAME RIFLE AND CARTRIDGE!! Perhaps that is too bloody logical!? ------------------ | |||
|
| <Andy> |
Gustavo, What "is a good premium bullet" in a 45-70??? Youve got lead, hard lead, RN, SWC, and crummy jacketed, or "premium" (partition) 300 gr. I dont think there is such a thing as a premium 45-70 bullet. this defeats the whole idea of hunting with a vintage cartridge. You hunt with a 450 BP express (black powder express) or 45-70 shooting lead or hardened lead bullets, period. No such thing as a premium. And no need for one as premiums were designed to survive at 3,000 fps, not 1400-1600 fps. Personally, I dont see the thrill in having to shoot an animal half a dozen times to kill it! I can tell you, if you shoot an american bison, which is not nearly as thick chested as an african (but it is deep chested), with a 45-70 it will just stand there! It might back up a few feet, but it will stay on its feet. I think the african variety might get pissed off. Andy | ||
|
| <10point> |
Actually I believe I asked what hunting bullet would be best in a .450 Marlin. Im not going to shoot Buff with it ; Im way to conservative to use anything but a proper cartridge for DG if I ever hunted them. I will, however, be hunting non DG game next year in the heavy Bush of the RSA with a .450 Marlin. I have a lot of bullets available to me and, right now, Im totally a blank as to what loads/Bullets would be best. The animals hunted with be Zebra-Kudu-warthog sized so I dont think I would need to apologize if I played with some 405 grn to 500 grn grn sized bullets. I do like the Hornady 350 grn LSP however and I have some Speer 400 grn jfp's on order. I think I'll be hunting a jacketed bullet but I do have some hard cast 405 grn bullets I will be giving some range time to. I'd prefer to hunt with a 400 grn class bullet but if the 350 grn Hornady's really shine then I'll go with them. I have no doubts that they will perform well on game and Im sure I'll have the velocity to get good expansion, at least with the 350's......................10 | ||
|
| <Mike Brown> |
Cain: For what it`s worth, every group has it`s bad apples. I`m not here to start a discussion on the ATF, but I will say that I was happy with the fact that they recovered and returned my stolen rifles to me. I wondered for awhile if I would really get them back after the ATF recovered them, due to the reputation they have, but the bottom line is, any way you slice it, I got my guns back last week and am tickled pink. And no, I don`t work for them. We need reasonable law and order, and the ATF goes overboard at times, but who does`nt? Humans in general and Americans in particular do most things to excess. people have forgotton the meaning of moderation. Gotta go now, I haven`t hunted for 4 hours now, and am getting withdrawel symptoms.... | ||
|
| one of us |
Andy, The whole idea of my post was to highlight a sometimes missed fact, "...it is the indian, not the arrow..." I've seen many times, good rifles with awesome good ammo, "by the book" equipment in the hands of very innapropiate hunters, failing to bring down game, and of course, cursing the rig and not themselves... Again, I'm positive about the use of a 45/70 with a good penetrating bullet (say a Barnes X) to put down a Buff. I've seen this before on Water Buff, and with doubt the hunter did his part as intended...also seen the other way... The point is not to derive the discussion, as Ray points out, to the extremes, say with a .22LR, a very easy way to diverte the point in question. You mentioned hard cast bullets, please review "THE RIFLE" by Truesdell, where he did an excellent work of summarizing hunts in both Africa and India, during 1850 to 1930, including the data of game, rifle and caliber, and let me know if those fellow hunters, were so wrong... We can go on this forever, I know...but ht e song will remain the same, put the bullet (a good one) where it belongs. IMHO, | |||
|
| <VincentR> |
To:CLEMENT, D B Bill, Mike Brown & Ray Atkinson Happy to hear that Mr. Atkinson is at least willing to give "new" 45-70 cartridges like Garrett's 540 gr Hammerheads a look. I have just returned from South Africa where I had a wonderful time. I hope to be back there in November. Along with my 375 Super Mashburn I also took a Browning Safari 458Win.Mag AND a Marlin 1895 loaded with Garrett 540gr Hammerheads. When I came upon my Cape Buffalo I had the 45-70 and did not hesitate to put it to good use. The first shot was at about 80 yards, passing from my left to my right. The bullet hit just at the right shoulder and passed completely through and exited out the left shoulder. The Buffalo dropped right down, immediately got up and faced me and moved towards me. The second shot, at about 65 yards, hit him head on below the neck in the front chest and exited at the rump. The Buffalo dropped back and collapsed. Both wound channels were huge and devastating. I have been hunting a lot of years and have seen many impressive kills. But I must say that in all honesty, Garrett's 540 gr hammerheads in 45-70 did everything that you could ask of a top quality cartridge, and, at least to me, proved its devastating effectiveness. www.Brockmansrifles.com has a great group of African trophy Photos using his modified 45-70's as does www.garrettcartridges.com I have enough love of my sport and the animals that I take to invest a large amount of my time in knowing my rifles, using them frequently, and honing my ability to hit what and where I aim. When I return to Africa, my rifles will be my 375 Super Mashburn and my Marlin 45-70 with Garrett Cartridges'540gr Hammerheads. Somewhere at sometime, someone found out that a spear was was more effective than a rock, and Garrett has taken the century old 45-70 cartridge to a new level. You should give it an honest try "before" you condemn it. Vince ------------------ | ||
|
| one of us |
Hey guys....I found Vince over on the Marlin Board and invited him to post about his experience with the 45/70...thanks Vince I hope you keep coming back. Well guys what do you think? I know one horseback ride ain't a rodeo but ...... ? | |||
|
| one of us |
Vince....forgot to ask. What kind of sights do you have on your 45/70? Can you scan us a photo of you and the buff? | |||
|
| <Speedy> |
If you guys are looking for some great 45-70 bullets that would be up to the job, call Alaska Bullet Works in Juneau. they make some bonded-core, flat-point full metal jacket bullets that won't bust up for anything. They make 350 and 405 grainers and have a few 500's left. My nieghbor has a custom slaughtering business. I asked him to find me an old bull to do a test on. The old Hereford wieghed 1500 pound and the bullets went all the way through side to side and front to back. First shot broke both front shoulders, second shot (he was on the ground now) broke the right front shoulder and left hip. I understand that attitude make all the difference but this was just a ballistic test. I have a Wild West Guns Co-pilot with a 16.5" barrel and get 1725 FPS with the 405's and 1510 FPS with the 500's. I know the bullets would hold together. As to enough power, that can (and is) debatable. I am fimilar enough with my rifle that I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a Buff with it. I doubt I'll get to Africa but I'd try it. By the way, I CAN shoot. ------------------ Rick Never volunteer. Trust no one. Expect sabotage. | ||
|
| one of us |
Good ol' Vince, hear to set us strait with the truth. | |||
|
| one of us |
VincentR, Very nice to hear from you on the debate! Once again, the hunter made the difference! Ray, Andy the others, please let us hear our comments on this experience. Tks! | |||
|
| <VincentR> |
BD Bill WWW.garrettcartridges.com has a picture of my mug, and more important, my "beautiful" Cape Buffalo. Didn't mean to jump in, but I felt that I should at least report what happened to me last month in Africa. With any luck, I hope to be back in SA in November and will do my best to repeat the event but with plenty of photos and hopefully including some plains game. By the way, this is realy a great site and I hope to get and share some great info. Vince ------------------ | ||
|
| <Andy> |
Gustavo, Those are nice looking bullets and impressive velocity too. Like the Pontiac add said, "This is not your (grand)fathers 45-70!" Id say you can hunt buffalo with that. But its not a 45-70 if its Marlin only. It is alot closer to a 458 winchester mag which is after all the whole idea (to improve on the 45-70's original ballistics). If this is what you boys are hunting with you have my blessing, not that you need it. Good hunting. Andy | ||
|
| <'Trapper'> |
Well, once again, here am I after promising myself I would not get involved in this mud sling. Folks, a lot of us are saying a lot of things, and the reality of the matter is, a lot of it is right both ways! The post just prior ( | ||
|
| <'Trapper'> |
Well, once again, here am I after promising myself I would not get involved in this mud sling. Folks, a lot of us are saying a lot of things, and the reality of the matter is, a lot of it is right both ways! The post just prior (by Andy) partially answered some of the question. Allow me to go a bit further. I love the 45/70, have a couple three and always looking for more. Having said that, let me say that the factory loaded 45/70 of today is certainly no more and I beleve less than the original black powder load for the gun. But the modern, high-level handloads for the 45/70 are vitrtually identical to low-to-mid level 45/70 loads. In reality, the 45/70 shold be considered as THREE different load levels, not just two. I think of loads safe for the trapdoors, etc, loads to be used in the Marlins and good sound Winchester lever guns, etc. and finally, loads for use only in Ruger No 1's, reworked done Siamese Mausers, etc. I shoot a lot of Remington 405's out of the 45/70, pushed along with a heavy load of Re7. Coming out of the barrel of the Ruger No 1, I run just over 2100fps. Now if my old calculator works out right and the formula hasn't changed that will equate to very close to 4000 foot pounds of energy. And having said this, let me add again that I do love the 45/70. I also know that the 458 Winc has a case capacity of 93grs of water vs 79grs for the 45/70. Now, if someone can tell how to realistically overcome that 14 gr advantage in capacity, I would sure like to have the knowledge. Folks, the 45/70 has done a lot of things, wil do a lot and will do a lot more but it ain't no 458 Winc. You can only do so much with it - period. Shoot straight, shoot safe and shoot a lot! Regards, ------------------ | ||
|
| <'Trapper'> |
Done it again, posted with an error. Where I said " But the modern, high-level handloads for the 45/70 are vitrtually identical to low-to-mid level 45/70 loads." I meant to say "virtually identical to the 458 Winc." Sorry for the confusion. ------------------ | ||
|
| one of us |
When I saw the reference by a new member to a 45-70 and Buff I knew I'd find this sooner or later. It reminds me of a friend who about 30 yrs ago in the bloom of youth and inexperience , asked permission to take a lion in Niger that had been killing women and goats. Now they weren't too keen on an American diplomat getting killed by one of their lions but he persuaded the President of Niger to let him give it a try. He went up north with a "Native Guide" and got permission from the local medicine man and went looking for lion. He was carrying a Win Pre-64 Mod 70 in 300 winmag and a Colt Python. They found the lion about 100 yds across a clearing walking away. The guide said "Shoot and he'll turn and then you can shoot him in the chest." Well he shot and sure enough when the beast got up he charged across that clearing. His letter to me asked "Do you realize how fast a wounded lion can cover 100yds on 3 legs?" Well he was shucking and shooting and knocked him down with the second shot. He got up again and came on. When the rife should have BOOMED there was a click. The force of the bolt motion had caused 2 rounds to jump out. Stan said he turned to see where his backup was and found himself alone, with an empty rifle, in the thorn bushes. He pulled the Python and started shooting. He said "I saw dust fly from his chest with every shot". He knocked him down again twice and the lion slowed and staggered off to the left at about 15yds and dropped dead. In retrospect, the lion was dead after the first chest shot which took off his aorta but he didn't know it. To me this doesn't prove that you can kill lion with a 300 win mag or a Colt Python. It proves that God takes care of fools and drunks-up to a point. It also proves that when you don't have any choice, a cool head and a good shot can prevail. Stan has survived terrorist attacks and the Iranian Revolution to retire an ambassador but he never went lion hunting again with a 300 win mag and a muzzle loading shotgun and poisoned spears for backup. Like Ray says,"Bring enough gun." | |||
|
| <Harald> |
Ray also pointed out very effectively that even a 470 Nitro wasn't enough gun on some occasions. That is to say - and correct me if I misunderstood - the big nitro expresses sometimes won't stop a buffalo with numerous "well placed" (by conventional standards) hits in the chest. How much then is "enough"? Only Sam Baker's Jennah al-Mootfah, which fired a half-pound exploding bullet and was literally light artillery probably qualifies as a weapon that would guarantee to stop the buffalo with a general (heart/lung) body hit. He only shot it a few times so maybe it too isn't a sure stopper. But then most of us cannot fire a gun that launches 3500 grain bullets anyway. So does that mean you can really never have "enough gun"? I'm not being rhetorical or facetious, I'm asking a sincere question. What I would like someone to demonstrate (using documented kills, not opinion, recollection or anecdotal evidence) is what percentage of the time these situations develop following a well placed hit in the chest, for the gamut of cartridges used on buffalo, and on average how many rounds are required to drop the buffalo after it decides that it isn't going to lie down and die. I wouldn't suggest that there is no correlation between the cartridge and the outcome, but I suspect that the correlation will surprise many. More than one PH has told me that the only thing that will stop a charging buffalo is a bullet in the brain (or the spine). I have seen a buffalo take a 470 or 500 nitro right in the head (missing the brain) and evince no reaction of any sort. None. How much stopping power did that cannon deliver? I can tell you how much more time it bought the shooter. Not one microsecond. In that case a fast second shot (aimed correctly) is all that saved him. How fast does a 350, 400 or 500 grain bullet have to be traveling to destroy a buffalo's brain? The 450 BPE compares in dimensions with a 45-120 (3.25 inch) not the short 45-70. So, modern high pressure 45-70 loads about duplicate mid-19th century low pressure blackpowder express loads. It may not be grandpa's 45-70, but its grandpa's 450. Those Buffalo Bore loads are actually less powerful than one of the loads used by Selous in the 1870s (although doubtless more effective due to the blunt nose). In one of my recent tests a 350 grain Speer FN softpoint fired from a 45-70 (1400 fps) penetrated farther than a 500 gr Hornady RN softpoint fired from a 458 Win Mag (2000 fps). The 500 grainer went 20 inches, which is a lot. The 350 exited my test box. I don't know how far it would go, but it went farther than it had to go to kill a buffalo. A hardcast lead "solid" would behave in exactly the same manner. Maybe it won't make as large a hole as a 458 magnum softpoint but plenty of people hunt buffalo with a 375 using solids. I bet it makes as large a hole as those. If I ever get to hunt buffalo I will use a 450 Ackley, but that is mainly because I like powerful bigbore rifles. If I did it professionally I would want the weapon with the best combination of reliability, rapid fire, magazine capacity, pointability, and sure penetration. That probably wouldn't be a 500 Jeffery. It would likely be something like a 404 or a 400 Nitro or 416 Taylor with light loads and it conceivably could be something a lot closer to a 9.3 x 62 mm, 35 Whelen or 338-06 using good solids. The main advantage in my mind to a large bore is the (slight) increase in probability of hitting a small target (the brain). | ||
|
| one of us |
Harold, When comparing calibers I think we sometimes draw conclusions from penitration test that have more to do with bullet construction than caliber, such as the Speer and Hornady, both of which I have seen blow up on elk..I believe Hornady toughened them up, but normally the Speer has traditionally been a soft bullet which is not the case in your test.... Once wounded, a Cape Buffalo pumped full of adrenaline is a worthy oponent for any caliber, but the big 50's will make a difference if you can handle one easily, and few can. the 470 et. al. will work 99% of the time just fine and take down any bull under any circumstance. It's that 1% that really get your attention...I just happen to think the 45-70 will change that equation, because I have seen the 458 as underloaded by the factorys change it, even with solids. That said, anyone who wants to use a 45-70 where its legal and I'm not sure it is anywhere as it probably doesn't meet the energy or velocity requirements, but if it does, be my guest if the PH allows it. But claims of complete body penitration lenthwise are just plain unadulterated BS IMHO.....furthermore I doubt complete penitration after breaking both shoulders. Such claims are sales hype and not the norm. ------------------ | |||
|
| <Sledgehammer> |
Let me say up front, I have not shot a Cape Buffalo, yet but... Many thoughts come to mind as I read this discussion, I'll be polite. Other than a 2 or 3 of these replies it is VERY obvious that few of you have: 1. Owned and Handloaded the modern 45/70 2. Any clue about Penetration + Energy + Energy Tranfer + Bullet Performance Forgetting the "skill factor" for the moment, because you could use a 50 BMG and if the shot isn't placed well, your not getting a clean kill. In short, It is unfair to judge and compare the 45/70 to anything if you haven't seen it in action first hand. I have seen both the 45/70 TC 14" and the 45/70 Guide Gun in Action. The caliber is impressive in its own right when properly loaded. Stop comparing Factory ammo and Ballistics. Understand, I have done,seen first hand, extensive testing also with the .460, .458, .300 WBY & WIN , and the 45/70 doesn't have to stick its head in the sand. | ||
|
| <'Trapper'> |
Sledgehammer: I like your post. I too thought much the same but you really can't argue the point or at least I haven't been able to. I too, as stated in my post above, love the old 45/70 and I shoot it lot. And in the Marlin, as you state, and even more so in my Ruger No 1, it is one heck of a caliber. Now, let me draw you a parallel and see if this makes any sense at all. I'm sure to get mauled for this but so be it. I would guess the most respected, most used of all the so called big bore dangerous game rifles - for all time now, mind you - would be the 470 NE. Read any of the stuff from Africa, especially from around the turn of the century, and this seems to be THE caliber. Now, cold hard data tells us the 470NE drives a 500gr bullet at 2150 FPS with the factory cordite loading. This load gives a yield of just over 5000 F/P muzzle energy. Impressive? I think so. And yet, this is virtually identical to the factory load (510gr solid driven at 2130 FPS gives 5149 F/P) for the 458 Winc and it has been cussed and damned since day one by a ton of writers, etc as not being enough rifle! Now how do you figure this? Does the very slight increase in frontal area of the 470 vs the 458 give an advantage? And why does the increase in bullet length and the rise in CSD not give an edge to the 458? Could this be a matter of "I've got one of these and it is better than yours" or the old syndrome of "It just isn't done, old boy, not proper, you know." I don't know the answer but I recall an article from years ago that I think was written by Aagard in which he related some stories about the 375 H&H and how it kills all out of proportion to what it seems. He told how he shot a rhino coming head on, just behind the head and straight into the neck. The bullet tore along the spine and exited out between the hips. "Remarkable penetration" was the way he termed it as I recall. Now having said all this, I doubt I have changed the mind or opinion of a single person on this site. But I firmly believe the 45/70 with the proper loading and the proper shot placement will kill a buffalo. "Shoot straight, shoot safe and shoot a lot!" Regards, ------------------ | ||
|
| one of us |
you super heros still shooting your stacked wet cape buffalo paper? WOW anything new? I know there are people out there that would like you to believe that 45-70 is more then a 450 3 1/4" or a 470, but one really interesting way to understand this fallacy is to go out and shoot live game with both!! I swear... the 45-70 is mighty fine cartridge, but stop starving over it... there are plenty of school girls who think there guide guns will "learn the world". | |||
|
| <Sledgehammer> |
Your right Trapper, it is merely a Mines bigger or better because they have one, I try to be a little more open minded than that. I, like you, got sucked into the discussion. The facts are, ballistically, the 45-70 is more than capable, it has been used to Kill everything on the face of the earth. Is it the biggest,baddest caliber on the planet, No, certainly not, but it need not be left off the list of "Powerful, lethal cartridges" VincentR has proof with the nice Buff he took. The other fact of the matter is, countless Cape Buffalo have been taken with Bow's as well as handguns. This is true for Elephants as well, so to continue on the debate of, can it or can't it, is pointless, it can not be argued. Particularly if people are going to participate that don't have a clue about ballistic testing, penetration, bullet variables, energy transfer, etc... There are many things with ballistics and penetration testing that unless a person sees it first hand, they will not believe because it doesn't fit the Novice ideas of Bigger,Heavier,Faster equals deeper. Unfortunately there are those that don't own a Chronograph, they choose to believe what they read in the manual, or don't test various bullets in a consistent medium, they choose to believe the commercials or the articles in there latest issue of "Guns & Ammo", and god for bid if you mention that different brands of brass can vary velocity as much as 100 FPS in many calibers. The only thing that is agreed upon because it is common sense, is that "Shot Placement" is the #1 most important factor, from ground-hogs to Elephants. I'll close now, I have to go search the Gunsamerica.com website for a Jeep mounted 50 BMG so I can be prepared for my next hunt. | ||
|
| one of us |
Please check GUNS & AMMO July 2001 issue, page 16, there you will find a nice photo of a very nice Buff downed by a ... "poor" 45-70, using Garrett ammo. More proof ? PS: I don't have, and won't have a 45-70, since I'm perfectly happy with my .458 WinMag, but what deserves credit....well please give it! | |||
|
| <VincentR> |
SLEDGEHAMMER, TRAPPER, GUSTOVO Gentelmen, in my opinion,you are absolutely right. In "MY CASE, ON MY CAPE BUFFALO" my 1895SS 45-70 with Garrett 540gr Hammerheads did indeed do exactly what I said they did! I perticularly don't give a hoot about someone's wet paper test or sliderule equations. I just know that using my Marlin 1895SS,I put a 540gr Garrett Hammerhead "THROUGH" (shoulder through shoulder)my Bull Cape Buffalo at 80 yards and "THROUGH" (neck through rump)at 65yards! ------------------ | ||
|
| <VincentR> |
Sledgehammer I am going back to Africa and I am in the process of having Brockman put together one of his modified Marlin 45-70 creations sighted in with Garrett's Cartridges. It is my intention to repeat my previous experience and add a few more plains game critters to my last group. I assure everyone that I will bring back "plenty" of photos to document the devastation that I know will occur (because I have already witnessed what a 540gr 45-70 Hammerhead is capable of doing)! By the way, didn't someone say that "crazy" Roy Weatherby would never make it in the gun business and that a 223 was a useless military round? We just need a "Ray" from father sunshine to illuminate our lost way. ------------------ | ||
|
Moderator |
Hmmm, After reading some other threads regarding this, I think what we have hear, is failure to comunicate! Some folks seem to be stuck, once they hear 45-70, they think 400 gr @ 1350 fps, not the garret hammerhead, that is a 540 gr @ 1600 and change. Personally, I believe their is a balance between bore diameter, bullet mass, velocity, and of greatest importance, bullet construction. I know there is only so much tissue displacement a given round can generate, you can very bullet weight and construction to increase or decrease penetration, but the diameter of the wound varies as well. Unless you are taling about a brain shot, then the diameter of the wound is as important as the depth of wound, becase it is that area that causes death. And yes, at a point, higher velocity reduces penetration, but, the reduction in penetration is caused by an increase in dia of the wound channel. So, the real question is, by going heavy and slow with the 45-70 we increase its penetration, but what higher velocity rifle can we compare it to in regards to the size of the wound channel? I would like to see some tests to quantify this. | |||
|
| one of us |
Well I have shot a lot of game with the old 45-90 and hard cast bullets and I never got that kind of killing power and I have shot an awfull lot of Buffalo with a lot of different calibers and even my old 505 wasn't that good...but I will give it a chance as Jim Brockman is one of my best friends and I'm going to borrow a rifle from him and give it a try..Jim, by the way isn't all that sold on the 45-70 for Buffalo either, but he hasn't been to Africa yet, so he won't get into this argument much..He does consider it a Bear gun....and so do I. | |||
|
| one of us |
Atkinson...thanks for sharing the info. about Brockman and being open minded enough to test/hunt the caliber yourself. I look forward to hearing your results as well. When you say "bear gun" do you mean brownies as well as blackies? I like the "resurgence" of the old rounds such as 45 Colt & 45-70...they are good designs that just won't die. They both have been given new life by being loaded heavier in more modern guns. I do not like them to the exclusion of the .416's, etc. but they certainly do have their use. | |||
|
| one of us |
Yukon, No doubt about that, they are fine old guns and great for what they are designed for and thats Deer and Elk in the black timber and I suspect they even make a fair to middlin Griz gun, but not a Alaskan Brown Bear or much less a Buffalo gun...Like I said I have used the 45-90 enough to appreciate it and its a lot more gun than the 45-70 or the 450 Marlin (which isn't any better than a 45-70) These tales of knocking huge holes in Buffalo and all that damage and penitration are just more than I can accept as the big bores such as the 500 Jefferys, 505 Gibbs and the mighty 577 don't exhibit thoes kinds of results and I've wallowed around in enough Buffalo guts looking for bullets to know, and I'm sure not baseing my opinnion on one dead bull.. We all know that the 45-70 or the 30-30 will kill a Buffalo and it can be done and has been, but continued use of such guns will sooner or later result in disaster and probably get some poor dumb PH killed, saving is assinine client... Sure, I'll try them and I welcome anyone to show up on my door step and perform penitration test against my guns and beat them by the 15" as claimed by Garrett. Test like that usually are the results of using SP against solids etc. Several things come to mind if one thinks about it and isn't prone to accept hype and that is a round nose jacketed solid has more penitration than any flat nosed bullet and a round nose solid at 2150 to 2400 is going to out penitrate a flat nosed lead bullet at 1400 to 1600 or whatever they get...A flat nose bullet will normally travel in a very stright line and it will cut arterys better and kill a little better and thats why I'm a big fan of GS bullets from RSA in my big bores, they penitrate enough and they kill better, but the Woodleigh solid penitrates more... If one of our 45-70 fans would like to send me a box of Garrets ammo, I will go with Jim Brockmon to the range and perform penitration tests against my 416 and 450-400-3" under his supervision and with one of his rifles... If I'm wrong then I will post it right here, and I will further use the 45-70 to cull some buffalo next year and make a full report to the forum, otherwise I've said all I intend to say on the subject... ------------------ | |||
|
| <MePlat> |
I've not seen where anyone has brought this up in the discussion on the 45/70 but here goes. Which would a person be better off using on a Buffalo a 45/70 that is hot loaded he can shoot well or a monster masher he is afraid of? Through observation of people shooting the big guns at the range most people cannot shoot them well at all. When people thinks that a 300 weatherby is bad what will they think of a 458 Lott or a 416 Rigby or Weatherby? Let drop the power debate and get to the meat of the problem. Shooter ability. I would rather see someone use a 45/70 with hot loads than to use a shoulder fired cannon he or she flinches with and then winding up gut shooting a big animal that could cause a lot of trouble for the Giude or PH. Of course some people thinks that the recoil of a Guide Gun is bad with a 540 at 1460. I don't though so; maybe I am crazy. But if Atkinson had his choice would he want a good shot with a hot loaded 45/70 or a poor shot with a 458 Lott or someother Butt Stomper that scares the poop out of the shooter? Not everyone is nerve dead to recoil as some of the detractors of the 45/70 would have you to believe. Think about it. | ||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
| View $GS_USERNAME's Public Profile |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Buddies |
| Add $GS_USERNAME to my Ignore List |
| Invite $GS_USERNAME to a Private Topic |
| View Recent Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
| Notify me of New Posts by $GS_USERNAME |
