quote:

Originally posted by tankhunter:
Thanks everyone for the interesting and informative comments ,just when i saw daily rates at 3k and up to 5k i think thats criminal ! if you can afford that and want to pay it, good for you ! Its annoying though to see some wealthy hunters mocking less well heeled hunters who cant afford to go on a $60,000.00 hunt each year or afford expensive English doubles etc ,i think thats pretty low and pathetic ,not everyone can be a Doctor ,Lawyer ,Dentist ,Surgeon whatever .I dont know why countries are closing Hunting ,when its in their financial Interest ,and conservation ,sustainable use etc ,whether they have been Paid off, by those with the intent of completely banning hunting, which is the goal of some groups, and they have the means and power to ultimately achieve that goal.

I guess I missed all of this.

To my mind the price of the daily rate doesn't mean much - it is the total package cost and the odds that that package will be fulfilled plus the other conditions. Then you can compare prices - or bitch about them too...

Really good wild lion hunting isn't cheap (it seems to me), no matter what the daily rates are.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

Call me nuts . . .

Make no mistake, we do.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I dont have to travel so far and pay so much to experience failure.

Truer words were never spoken.

Guided hunting is very expensive in the US.

I went on a Alaskan Moose hunt for $12,800 plus another $2K in charter cost. It was total waste of money when compared to a Save buffalo hunt or a Botswana plains game w/ Jason Bridger. Alaska is awesome but its a high dollar price hunt to shoot just one animal.

I hunted Botswana with Kanana shot 9 animals on a package plus another 10 or more cull animals for under $7500.

In Alaska the guide saved the hunt but I am certain the outfitter spent less than $20 feeding me for 10 days. Not $20 per day but $20 in total.

There are some good deals in Africa especially for plains game and some one off hunts.

The price escalation in Buffalo hunts has been dramatic. I personally think its reaching a point of becoming unsustainable - see the discounted hunt section over the course of the year.

I think the market prices reflect reality its supply and demand with a big element of opportunistic pricing by parties (African governments). I for one don't look at the current pricing as indicative of anything going forward. Why should I expect a government that ruined its economy by printing money and seizing property like Zimbabwe to be able to optimally price trophy fees and government levies on Buffalos ? What makes these jokers so in tuned to US hunter preferences for Buffalo hunts over other choices (pick your favorite other hunt, f-150 or 1000 other things sold at DSC/SCI)? All they did was see hunting close elsewhere or other jokers (Tanzania) raise prices and followed. When hunting opens up elsewhere or people who have shot a dozen buffaloes already decide they have better stuff to do with their money things adjust. I am eagerly waiting to see the South African buffalo herds mature and animal breeding programs to get commercialized. A blue ear tag South African farm bred buffalo with 44 inch soft bosses might get the Zim politicians attention.

I will bet that percentage increases in Buffalo prices in Zim between 2010-2015 will not be seen between 2015-2020-2025.

Wild lion hunts are expensive. The lion hunt is very academic as I am more likely to kill a unicorn than another lion. But in general when I see wild lions hunts advertised, I have serious issues with paying $3K-$5K a day to hunt when the odds of shooting one are 40%. My fear is the outfitter is selling more hunts than lions on quota given the odds. He is playing a different game and has different incentives than the hunter. A large success fee and daily rates closer to buffalo for a wild lion hunt would indicate to me that hunter and outfitter interest are aligned.

Mike

In the last 12 months buffalo hunting has gone up from as low as $8,900 for a 7 day hunt including trophy to more like $12,000

Canned hunting prices are still high which shows that the "market" is still there for the easy bragging rights. I cannot believe the number of people offering farmed mutant red stags here in NZ!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I accept the current prices but not when the hunt outcome is a roll of the dice.I am not interested in going to Africa to hunt anything else but lion,leopard,cape buff and ele.I go to Africa to see game-lots of it not two spend two weeks in the bush from sunrise to sunset and see nothing.

Stop being a cry baby. There is a reason it is called hunting and not shooting. If you want a sure thing book a hunt in South Africa and stop whining.

You can make hunting as challenging as you want it to be,just take away the game.

You act like you are the only person that ever went on an unsuccessful hunt. Ask all the folks that have done wild lion hunts if it is a sure thing. Grow up, man up.

All those that went on lion hunts and paid the full price and did not shoot their lions are idiots,IMO.

well, George, if there is one topic you know a lot about, it's idiots- obviously a lot of hands-on personal experience.....

As the resource declines, hunting is becoming a rich man's sport...7.5 billion people on the planet and GROWING FAST!

When do you think the ADJUSTMENT will come?

Must be totally supply and demand.
I've been on elephant hunts, lion and leopard hunts, buffalo and hippo hunts, and the work done by the staff and the PH differed none from a plains game hunt. Same equipment, same times, same camp staff, same food, etc.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Call me nuts

You're NUTS man!!

There are two markets that will always have buyers; the cheap and the very expensive.

The middle class vary year to year on ability to spend money on a hunt. But they are the lions share of people who hunt, so competition for hunts is pretty fierce.

The ultra rich can afford whatever they want, so they do whatever they want. The boom of Russian millionaires is killing the lion hunting. They all have to have one.

quote:

Originally posted by Expat:
African hunting is cheap. Compare it to a guided north american whitetail hunt. You pay $6500 to sit in a rickety tree stand, by yourself, with a sandwich and a yogurt for lunch, only to share a bunk house with 7 other hunters when you get home after riding bitch on a worn out quad. Compare that to a 8 day exclusive 5 animal plains game 1x1 guided hunt with 5 star food and lodging, and trackers, and skinners.
I think there is more money now than before. 22 year old kids are making $180,000 per year in the oil patch. They can afford an african hunt with half their bonus cheque. If people want it bad enough, they will pay.

I agree with you. North American hunting has gotten ridiculous. I originally wanted to hunt caribou and grizzly in either Yukon or NWT. The cost before any flights averaged $18,000. Dropped that idea and turned to Africa. When you can hunt cheaper, and get more value for your money in Africa, that's the place I'm going.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

The ultra rich can afford whatever they want, so they do whatever they want.
The boom of Russian millionaires is killing the lion hunting. They all have to have one.

they also significantly boost the US, London and western Euro luxury premium property market.
Luxury watch, jewellery,car,boat,aircraft and fashion companies, love them also!

One Russian purchased Donald Trumps Palm Beach home for near $100 mill....with plans to pull it down,
while his russian daughter payed full ticket price of 88 million for a NYC apartment.

Just imagine the money that gets thrown around when wealthy Eastern Europeans go to Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I dont have to travel so far and pay so much to experience failure.

Truer words were never spoken.

You must know that from looking at your wife.

Ah and there it is, bringing someone's spouse into it, bad form

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:
Ah and there it is, bringing someone's spouse into it, bad form

Considering the source does that surprise you ?

quote:

Stop being a cry baby. There is a reason it is called hunting and not shooting. If you want a sure thing book a hunt in South Africa and stop whining.

Mike

Outfitters will charge whatever they feel they can get away with. It is simple supply and demand economics. However, if you saw what actually happened behind the curtain, most would not pay anywhere near the asking price.

At the end of the day, a little market knowledge and a little negotiating 101 can save you a few bucks.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I dont have to travel so far and pay so much to experience failure.

Truer words were never spoken.

You must know that from looking at your wife.

Please don't call her that. You know good and well your mother and I never actually married.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I dont have to travel so far and pay so much to experience failure.

Truer words were never spoken.

You must know that from looking at your wife.

Please don't call her that. You know good and well your mother and I never actually married.

DING DING DING!! I believe we have a winner in LHook7 by knockout. Great comeback victory over Shootacow.

I used to feel sorry for George. Given his consistent bad behavior, I no longer feel sorry for him.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I dont have to travel so far and pay so much to experience failure.

Truer words were never spoken.

You must know that from looking at your wife.

And that comment comes from a grown man??

You have no class,

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The market will set the price. If outfitters/countries want to keep raising rates beyond any global price index and hunters want to pay those rates more power to them.

Hunting has always been a rich mans sport and will continue to be.

I just personally don't see much value when the all in price of a buffalo hunt approaches a F-150. Another buffalo or a new f-150 - I am getting the truck

Mike

It might soon be another chance at a buffalo instead.Although I would like another trophy in my home it was always a succesful hunt or the high chances of having one that brought me back to Africa.Truth is I dont feel that way anymore.

Hunting has an element of uncertainty.

But when costs approach US per capita family income for some hunts and often multiples of that - its does raise the bar on success - think of a wild lion hunt in TZ.

I don't spend a lot of money on stuff - cars vacations ect. Hunting is normally my main personal expense. But the increase in rates in just the last 5 years has to a certain degree made me lose interest in dg hunting going forward. Its just not worth the money to me.

The good thing in Africa hunting is I can trade down - away from dangerous game to plains game. Regardless of the cost - I would much rather hunt eland than buffalo. I have shot my one wild lion and would never ever shoot another one - same with elephant - even if the hunt was free. Its just my preference. I can leave taxidermy, shipping, dip ect behind - don't really care for it anyway. So there are always tradeoffs.

But if other people are willing to pay $3K a day to hunt lion - more power to them - its their money and they can spend it anyway they want too (as long as it is legal).

Mike

There are still lots of relative bargains hunting PG in Namibia or RSA.

I could hunt kudu, eland and bushbuck for ever.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I used to feel sorry for George. Given his consistent bad behavior, I no longer feel sorry for him.

I second this, he is very deserving.
Of course, this opinion is from an Alaskan who collects and shoots only garbage.
Cal

Any victory over George is somewhat hollow and of no challenge. Like picking on the little retard kid in grade school. But I sure do enjoy it!

Dutch

Hunting is no different than any other activity we might wish to participate in.

The example given is for a lion hunt in Tanzania - probably the most expensive.

How many of us actually go on a specific lion hunt?

How about the rest of hunts being offered, ranging from plains game to an all bag safari?

They do range in price where any hunter can afford one.

And an African safari looks pretty good value for money compared to hunts in Europe or the US - for what one gets.

As far as I am concerned, Africa offers something one cannot get anywhere else.

quote:

As far as I am concerned, Africa offers something one cannot get anywhere else

True in my book.

If there something you enjoy, you are the only person who can put a price on it, regardless of how expensive it is.

Ain't that the truth?

Free range Zambia buff being offered here for less that $15,000 including trophy fee is reasonable.

My group hunt in Luangwa is only $350 a day and includes a host of desirable species including Roan.

There are some really good deals out there especially on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I dont have to travel so far and pay so much to experience failure.That is why I went to Africa-because it was a place for me where there was no such thing as failure! Call me nuts but I dont give a shit!

And there it is in a nutshell: It's all about how we define failure and success.

Cal - I totally agree. A lot of my Dangerous Game hunts and Plains Game hunts have occurred in the same area, same camp and staff, same PH's, same food, same vehicles, so don't know what drives up the cost when it's (dangerous as opposed to plains)? Since it's not the actual physical aspects, it must be the hype and mystique, that drives up the price and gets hunters to pay the extra/excessive fees?

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
R8 Blaser
Sabatti "trash" Double Shooter

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Must be totally supply and demand.
I've been on elephant hunts, lion and leopard hunts, buffalo and hippo hunts, and the work done by the staff and the PH differed none from a plains game hunt. Same equipment, same times, same camp staff, same food, etc.
Cal

The outfitters all say they are not making money and no one is getting rich. The booking agents all say they are not making money and no one is getting rich. The government entities all say they need more money to maintain areas, fight poaching, etc. Hard to believe that no one in the process is making money. The lack of transparency certainly does not help in dispelling suspicions that it is the hunters that are being taken for a ride. All that said, we hunters are certainly free to vote with our feet and that is the best way to bring the market back in line.

I don't know about you guys, but I well remember as a kid watching the old American Sportsman and other shows that sometimes came on TV with guys hunting and fishing in places I didnt think I would ever see, and saying wow if I ever get to that (once) . . . it will just be great. Well it is great and having hunted and fished around this world, and done more than that little kid would have ever dreamed, it still is great.

The biggest and best safaris, especially for dangerous game in the top settings are just going to cost more. There isn't any two ways about that and it has always been that way.

On the other hand if I (you) went on a hunt alone (no family) , waited for the best economy airfare ( There was some less than $1500 Air France round trip airfares available earlier this year) , didnt visit other sights and just traveled on through like we used to do, just got a bare bones plains game hunt it could all be less than a good deer lease in Texas. And certainly less than a guided elk hunt or anything you can hunt now in Alaska.

Without taxidermy, and of course no tips , you could hunt and take a half a dozen animals or maybe more on some cull hunts, for less than a Kansas deer or a good duck lease for a year.

I am not sure why this is an issue, but it comes up more and more these days. Maybe these are younger guys that don't think they are going to have opportunities. You do and you will so just make it happen if you want it - don't worry about what the other guys can afford. Maybe it is older guys with a grump going on. Get off of that and just go is what I say. If you have already been then maybe you shouldn't be grumping.

You should well remember when a loaded new truck was $5,000 and now a King Ranch F350 is $65,000. It is the way it is. It might not be what we asked for but it is the way it has been for 100 years at least. But you and I have more opportunities in that time than ever before. That absolutely is true in sporting selections and entertainment.

Most of us have always had Fords or Chevys and /or trucks, but there have always been guys with Ferraris and a private plane and maybe they can go for something more than we can. But like the little kid above, I am still smiling and dreaming about the next one. But I am very satisfied with the ones I have already done.

You only get one lap around this track, so make it a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Must be totally supply and demand.
I've been on elephant hunts, lion and leopard hunts, buffalo and hippo hunts, and the work done by the staff and the PH differed none from a plains game hunt. Same equipment, same times, same camp staff, same food, etc.
Cal

The same is true in your home state of Alaska, Cal. An outfitter I know in Wrangell charges $6000 for a spring black bear hunt on his 53' converted yacht. The price for a brown bear hunt, same boat, same overhead, same spring time period is $18,000. When asked about the huge differential, his reply... "It's what the market will bear" (no pun intended).

I caused a big stir up with a simple quote on this subject on another forum. The cost of hunts is very simple. The outfitters don't need to charge what they do to make money they do because they can and we pay it. Plan and simple and 100% true.

You will hear 10 reason why they most but like some have pointed out on here it is just bs. If the cost to do the hunt is the same be it a buff or plains game then the only answer is because they can. If you notice more then ever there is more and more hunts that use to be booked up years ahead of time around later to be booked each year. Nothing wrong with guys getting as much as they can I am just getting sick of hearing they must or they will not stay in business or one of the other 10 reason they have.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
I caused a big stir up with a simple quote on this subject on another forum. The cost of hunts is very simple. The outfitters don't need to charge what they do to make money they do because they can and we pay it. Plan and simple and 100% true.

You will hear 10 reason why they most but like some have pointed out on here it is just bs. If the cost to do the hunt is the same be it a buff or plains game then the only answer is because they can. If you notice more then ever there is more and more hunts that use to be booked up years ahead of time around later to be booked each year. Nothing wrong with guys getting as much as they can I am just getting sick of hearing they must or they will not stay in business or one of the other 10 reason they have.

You should get into the safari business mate. There is no way you can class the entire hunting industry in one statement.

Taking on DG is risky for the PH and many have to put their life on the line or risk serious injury. How much is that worth?

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
I caused a big stir up with a simple quote on this subject on another forum. The cost of hunts is very simple. The outfitters don't need to charge what they do to make money they do because they can and we pay it. Plan and simple and 100% true.

You will hear 10 reason why they most but like some have pointed out on here it is just bs. If the cost to do the hunt is the same be it a buff or plains game then the only answer is because they can. If you notice more then ever there is more and more hunts that use to be booked up years ahead of time around later to be booked each year. Nothing wrong with guys getting as much as they can I am just getting sick of hearing they must or they will not stay in business or one of the other 10 reason they have.

BCAP:

What business are you in? I am sure that whatever it may be, you know it better than most PH's. I am sure you would be just a little bit annoyed if a PH told you that you were "charging too much". How can you say they are charging too much if you are not operating and seeing the day to day operations? How are we to determine what a "fair" salary is for an Outfitter/PH?

It is only for us to determine the "fair" value. I certainly think some hunts are over priced and for that reason, will not go. But, that is just my opinion! However, some of the other hunts I have done are a bargain IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

You should get into the safari business mate. There is no way you can class the entire hunting industry in one statement.

Taking on DG is risky for the PH and many have to put their life on the line or risk serious injury. How much is that worth?

The safari business is like any other business or investment; a trade off between risk and reward. Corporate bonds pay more than government bonds because investors require payment for risk.

Dangerous game hunting is more risky than plains game hunting and the operators/PHs should be compensated more. Straightforward business/economics.