quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
You have to have adequate power and penetration.

In Bell's day expanding bullets were in their infancy and had a lot of trouble with failure. I doubt Bell tried a lot of his shooting with body shots with small bore expanding bullets vs large bore expanding bullets. If he did, he may have had a different opinion.

Instead, he excelled in brain shots at elephant. Looking at the number of long for caliber bullets that rivet and deviate, I wonder how many failures he had from that on elephant.

How many of us would feel comfortable with a bolt action center fire .22 bore on dangerous animals at short range? Note that Bell didn't use a 6mm or smaller...

Saeed, you settled essentially on a .375 RUM, why not a smaller cartridge to reverse the question?

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Yep. That is why I use my .600 so much. It's a mental disorder.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Yep. That is why I use my .600 so much. It's a mental disorder.
Cal

Does the .600 cause mental disorder? Is this cause and effect?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The initial assumption of this thread is a perfect example of how peoples statements and intents of purpose is misconstrued. In this case Bell

The use of a small bore in large animal hunting only applies to head shots on Elephant !

It does not apply to body shots on the same and definitely does not apply to the hunting of buffalo.

Therefore the title of the thread is misleading !

The reason for this lies in the peculiar anatomy of the elephant skull that allows for the use of a small bore on frontal or side on head shots. Bell knew this and in the only scientific paper of its kind van De Merwe and Seegers of Onderstepoort Vetinary school in Pretoria South Africa showed why such shots are possible and preferred on the African Elephant.

This found application in the adoption of culling practices in the KNP in the 70's and 80's where small bore semi auto rifles were shown to be superior to large bore "elephant guns". A herd of up to 19 individuals could be downed in less than 2 minutes by one shooter and a back up and with a 90 % plus one shot necessary per kill. ( this was not possible using conventional bolt or double rifles.)

Further this it was also shown that chemical euthanasia of elephant was not viable as it produced unacceptably high levels of stress hormones in euthanized individuals indicating that the process was not humane.

Contra to the elephant chemical euthanasia of buffalo produced less stress than shooting and the buffalo skull did not have the same anatomy arrangement as the elephant for use of small bores thus large bore rifles and body shots were necessary to put the buffalo down.

A study by the same authors were conducted into the anatomy of the buffalo skull specifically for this purpose ie seeking routes of access if a small bire were to be used.

As death in the case of body shots are not instantaneous stress hormone levels were found to be very high in shot individuals vs chemically euthanized individuals thus shooting was deemed less humane than euthanasia using a dart.

Some years ago I attended a wildlife symposium where this paper was read and later I sought out prof van der Merwe and he showed me their substantial collection of dry specimen elephant and buffalo skulls on which their research was based.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Good grief no one is suggesting we hunt with darts! Nor is was any study done to regulate hunting per se other than to look at lethality and methods of humane killing in setting regulated by and scrutinized by humane societies as in the case of culling in a conservancy which is a national heritage site.

Saeed if you consider your 375-404 a small bore you are also a bit deranged

As to death yes it has stages and yes it is not instantaneous !

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Just to round out this holiday pot stirring thread, perhaps we should discuss the ethics of doing a canned lion hunt with Mark Sullivan as the PH in search of an SCI Gold lion with a .223 loaded with Sierra MatchKing bullets booked through an outfitter with a thirty-five page contract?

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Just to round out this holiday pot stirring thread, perhaps we should discuss the ethics of doing a canned lion hunt with Mark Sullivan as the PH in search of an SCI Gold lion with a .223 loaded with Sierra MatchKing bullets booked through an outfitter with a thirty-five page contract?

At 1000 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

Just as long as there is someone backing you up with something more ... right?

This is another discussion. For all of you minimalist out there, take it to the limit. Just take your next buff with a 22lr. Better yet, let's see you go after tuskless in the early season jesse blocks with a .222.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
For those who believe bigger is better, I copied the following from Bell Of Africa.



As regards rifles, I will simply state that I have tried the following: .416, .450/. 400, .860, .350, .318, .275 and .256. At the time I possessed the double .400 I also had a .275. Sometimes I used one and sometimes the other, and it began to dawn on me that when an elephant was hit in the right place with the .275 it died just as quickly as when hit with the .400, and, vice versa, when the bullet from either rifle was wrongly placed death did not ensue. In pursuance of this train of thought I wired both triggers of the double .450/. 400 together, so that when I pulled the rear one both barrels went off simultaneously. By doing this I obtained the equivalent of 800 grs. of lead propelled by 120 grs. of cordite. The net result was still the same. If wrongly placed, the 800 grs. from the .400 had no more effect than the 200 grs. from the 275. For years after that I continued to use the .275 and the .256 in all kinds of country and for all kinds of game. Each hunter should use the weapon he has most confidence in.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

Just as long as there is someone backing you up with something more ... right?

This is another discussion. For all of you minimalist out there, take it to the limit. Just take your next buff with a 22lr. Better yet, let's see you go after tuskless in the early season jesse blocks with a .222.

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

Just as long as there is someone backing you up with something more ... right?

This is another discussion. For all of you minimalist out there, take it to the limit. Just take your next buff with a 22lr. Better yet, let's see you go after tuskless in the early season jesse blocks with a .222.

That's what I said! A .222 and Matchking bullets - it's a death-ray... even at 1000yds