For Those Who Believe Bigger Is Better!

24 December 2016, 21:04

For those who believe bigger is better, I copied the following from Bell Of Africa.

As regards rifles, I will simply state that I have tried the following: .416, .450/. 400, .860, .350, .318, .275 and .256. At the time I possessed the double .400 I also had a .275. Sometimes I used one and sometimes the other, and it began to dawn on me that when an elephant was hit in the right place with the .275 it died just as quickly as when hit with the .400, and, vice versa, when the bullet from either rifle was wrongly placed death did not ensue. In pursuance of this train of thought I wired both triggers of the double .450/. 400 together, so that when I pulled the rear one both barrels went off simultaneously. By doing this I obtained the equivalent of 800 grs. of lead propelled by 120 grs. of cordite. The net result was still the same. If wrongly placed, the 800 grs. from the .400 had no more effect than the 200 grs. from the 275. For years after that I continued to use the .275 and the .256 in all kinds of country and for all kinds of game. Each hunter should use the weapon he has most confidence in.

24 December 2016, 21:14

dogcat

Yep.
That's why I use a .300wm and a .280rem.
I know where the bullet is going with those two.

24 December 2016, 23:47

Slider

Yep,I have been using a 264 win mag for 40 years. It kills everything cleanly.

25 December 2016, 01:49

Antlers

.222 and Matchking bullets - it's a death-ray...

25 December 2016, 02:22

cal pappas

Yep. That is why I use my .600 so much. It's a mental disorder.
Cal

_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________

25 December 2016, 02:34

Heym 450/400

I'm just an odd ball and use .375's and .416's... I wish I was cool enough to over/under compensate

25 December 2016, 02:39

crbutler

You have to have adequate power and penetration.

In Bell's day expanding bullets were in their infancy and had a lot of trouble with failure. I doubt Bell tried a lot of his shooting with body shots with small bore expanding bullets vs large bore expanding bullets. If he did, he may have had a different opinion.

Instead, he excelled in brain shots at elephant. Looking at the number of long for caliber bullets that rivet and deviate, I wonder how many failures he had from that on elephant.

How many of us would feel comfortable with a bolt action center fire .22 bore on dangerous animals at short range? Note that Bell didn't use a 6mm or smaller...

Saeed, you settled essentially on a .375 RUM, why not a smaller cartridge to reverse the question?

25 December 2016, 02:49

Nakihunter

Great point Doc.

Why do we all not use a 22 RF then. Or 222 Rem.

While I have not hunted DG, I can say with fair authority that a 6.5X55, 7mm08, 280 are far better and a lot more reliable on red deer than 222 Rem.

Even on a fallow deer, a 100 gr 243 is a better choice than a 53gr 222Rem.

Both Taylor and Hunter have said that the "old" days of shooting from a herd of elephants in the open allowed picking shots with a light rifle and that the same practice would be asking for trouble in thick bush at close range with poor visibility.

25 December 2016, 03:26

#1 of 13

I'm hoping to try my 8 Bore next year on monkeys

25 December 2016, 03:30

larryshores

.860?

25 December 2016, 05:37

lavaca

To me, it's all about confidence in the rifle and the load. I have a few that I trust to do things they shouldn't be tasked to do; e.g., A .30-06 that will handle heavier game than it should, and a .416 that will reach out there.

You've all heard the old saying, "Beware of the man with one rifle." Well I'm certainly not guilty of that, but I do have a limited number of go-tos.

25 December 2016, 06:26

Todd Williams

A man should know his limitations.

25 December 2016, 09:10

Fjold

I agree with Mr. Bell, take the gun that you shoot the best.

25 December 2016, 10:05

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
You have to have adequate power and penetration.

In Bell's day expanding bullets were in their infancy and had a lot of trouble with failure. I doubt Bell tried a lot of his shooting with body shots with small bore expanding bullets vs large bore expanding bullets. If he did, he may have had a different opinion.

Instead, he excelled in brain shots at elephant. Looking at the number of long for caliber bullets that rivet and deviate, I wonder how many failures he had from that on elephant.

How many of us would feel comfortable with a bolt action center fire .22 bore on dangerous animals at short range? Note that Bell didn't use a 6mm or smaller...

Saeed, you settled essentially on a .375 RUM, why not a smaller cartridge to reverse the question?

Because the 375 is the minimum caliber I can use for big, dangerous game.

I would have been very happy using our 30/404 if that was possible.

And I can guarantee you there would be no difference in the end results.

25 December 2016, 10:14

chilcotin hillbilly

I know the advice I give clients is bring what you shoot best with 25-06 minimum for moose, 243 for black bear, goats,deer and such.
Nothing like brain shooting an elephant but definitely the same concept. Shoot what you love to shoot.

25 December 2016, 10:46

ALF

The initial assumption of this thread is a perfect example of how peoples statements and intents of purpose is misconstrued. In this case Bell

The use of a small bore in large animal hunting only applies to head shots on Elephant !

It does not apply to body shots on the same and definitely does not apply to the hunting of buffalo.

Therefore the title of the thread is misleading !

The reason for this lies in the peculiar anatomy of the elephant skull that allows for the use of a small bore on frontal or side on head shots. Bell knew this and in the only scientific paper of its kind van De Merwe and Seegers of Onderstepoort Vetinary school in Pretoria South Africa showed why such shots are possible and preferred on the African Elephant.

This found application in the adoption of culling practices in the KNP in the 70's and 80's where small bore semi auto rifles were shown to be superior to large bore "elephant guns". A herd of up to 19 individuals could be downed in less than 2 minutes by one shooter and a back up and with a 90 % plus one shot necessary per kill. ( this was not possible using conventional bolt or double rifles.)

Further this it was also shown that chemical euthanasia of elephant was not viable as it produced unacceptably high levels of stress hormones in euthanized individuals indicating that the process was not humane.

Contra to the elephant chemical euthanasia of buffalo produced less stress than shooting and the buffalo skull did not have the same anatomy arrangement as the elephant for use of small bores thus large bore rifles and body shots were necessary to put the buffalo down.

A study by the same authors were conducted into the anatomy of the buffalo skull specifically for this purpose ie seeking routes of access if a small bire were to be used.

As death in the case of body shots are not instantaneous stress hormone levels were found to be very high in shot individuals vs chemically euthanized individuals thus shooting was deemed less humane than euthanasia using a dart.

Some years ago I attended a wildlife symposium where this paper was read and later I sought out prof van der Merwe and he showed me their substantial collection of dry specimen elephant and buffalo skulls on which their research was based.

25 December 2016, 12:44

BenKK

Small bores work on big game, in the right hands (and with a cool head) and in the right situation. The other essential is to select the right bullet, and yet even rubbish bullets can work sometimes, although these should be avoided. I wouldn't hunt in dense cover with a small bore.

25 December 2016, 16:53

Indy

Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

25 December 2016, 19:12

Saeed

Frankly, I could not careless what some study says.

I have shot enough buffalo to have first hand experience that a 180 grain Walterhog, Barnes X or similar bullet, would drop them in their their tracks just a 300 grain bullet would.

Buffalo do not stick to what studies say.

Reminds me of the time I had a discussion with a gentleman at Holland & Holland.

He insisted that the 240 H&H Magnum kills better than any 24 caliber rifle.

I think he thought anything with an H&H attached to its name does better than say a 243 Winchester, which has identical performance.

25 December 2016, 20:04

MJines

For dangerous game it is sort of silly to argue that you should not use the largest caliber that you shoot well. Not a whole lot more complicated than that it seems to me. Unfortunately many people do not spend enough range time with the big bores to be comfortable and proficient with them.

25 December 2016, 20:23

larryshores

I agree with Mike. I have stopped at 500 NE. The others are just too big to carry all day.

On the other hand, I have seen both lions and buff shot with a 30-06. It was quite effective. I have seen a video of a woman shooting an elephant with a 30-06. Perfect brain shot.

25 December 2016, 20:36

boarkiller

Ele 375 and 450
All else 308 unless it's a deer right outside my window, then 22 behind the ear is quite sufficient

25 December 2016, 20:39

dogcat

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Yep. That is why I use my .600 so much. It's a mental disorder.
Cal

Does the .600 cause mental disorder? Is this cause and effect?

25 December 2016, 20:47

cal pappas

quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:
quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Yep. That is why I use my .600 so much. It's a mental disorder.
Cal

Does the .600 cause mental disorder? Is this cause and effect?

Probably a bit of both--pre existing condition made worse by recoil.
Cal

25 December 2016, 20:53

Saeed

I am not aware that there are more stages to death than just one.

I remember following sablectracks when we came across fresh lion tracks.

I mentioned that I have the wrong caliber for lion - I was carrying a 270 Ackley rifle at the time.

My PH said "I can assure you he won't notice the difference"

25 December 2016, 20:54

.458 Only

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
The initial assumption of this thread is a perfect example of how peoples statements and intents of purpose is misconstrued. In this case Bell

The use of a small bore in large animal hunting only applies to head shots on Elephant !

It does not apply to body shots on the same and definitely does not apply to the hunting of buffalo.

Therefore the title of the thread is misleading !

The reason for this lies in the peculiar anatomy of the elephant skull that allows for the use of a small bore on frontal or side on head shots. Bell knew this and in the only scientific paper of its kind van De Merwe and Seegers of Onderstepoort Vetinary school in Pretoria South Africa showed why such shots are possible and preferred on the African Elephant.

This found application in the adoption of culling practices in the KNP in the 70's and 80's where small bore semi auto rifles were shown to be superior to large bore "elephant guns". A herd of up to 19 individuals could be downed in less than 2 minutes by one shooter and a back up and with a 90 % plus one shot necessary per kill. ( this was not possible using conventional bolt or double rifles.)

Further this it was also shown that chemical euthanasia of elephant was not viable as it produced unacceptably high levels of stress hormones in euthanized individuals indicating that the process was not humane.

Contra to the elephant chemical euthanasia of buffalo produced less stress than shooting and the buffalo skull did not have the same anatomy arrangement as the elephant for use of small bores thus large bore rifles and body shots were necessary to put the buffalo down.

A study by the same authors were conducted into the anatomy of the buffalo skull specifically for this purpose ie seeking routes of access if a small bire were to be used.

As death in the case of body shots are not instantaneous stress hormone levels were found to be very high in shot individuals vs chemically euthanized individuals thus shooting was deemed less humane than euthanasia using a dart.

Some years ago I attended a wildlife symposium where this paper was read and later I sought out prof van der Merwe and he showed me their substantial collection of dry specimen elephant and buffalo skulls on which their research was based.

I wonder how long it will be before Winchester, Remington, Ruger, etc., will be producing dart guns for trophy hunting, since trophy hunting is on the way out? Likely, the future of "trophy hunting" will be to "catch and release" same as in sport fishing.

A cartridge like the 9.3 X 62 that has never seen military application, but used exclusively for defence against crop raiders and DG for personal protection, as well as for protein, would seem legitimate as they would also for culling purposes where too many of the hazardous kind threatens the lives and/or well being of habitants, whether at home or any place else where such activity would be legal.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

25 December 2016, 21:00

MJines

Just to round out this holiday pot stirring thread, perhaps we should discuss the ethics of doing a canned lion hunt with Mark Sullivan as the PH in search of an SCI Gold lion with a .223 loaded with Sierra MatchKing bullets booked through an outfitter with a thirty-five page contract?

25 December 2016, 21:18

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

Just as long as there is someone backing you up with something more ... right?

This is another

discussion. For all of you minimalist out there, take it to the limit. Just take your next buff with a 22lr. Better yet, let's see you go after tuskless in the early season jesse blocks with a .222.

25 December 2016, 21:25

ALF

Good grief no one is suggesting we hunt with darts! Nor is was any study done to regulate hunting per se other than to look at lethality and methods of humane killing in setting regulated by and scrutinized by humane societies as in the case of culling in a conservancy which is a national heritage site.

Saeed if you consider your 375-404 a small bore you are also a bit deranged

As to death yes it has stages and yes it is not instantaneous !

25 December 2016, 22:00

Saeed

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Good grief no one is suggesting we hunt with darts! Nor is was any study done to regulate hunting per se other than to look at lethality and methods of humane killing in setting regulated by and scrutinized by humane societies as in the case of culling in a conservancy which is a national heritage site.

Saeed if you consider your 375-404 a small bore you are also a bit deranged

As to death yes it has stages and yes it is not instantaneous !

I actually consider it a BIG BORE

But, I would be just as happy hunting with the 30/404.

And I am absolutely certain no animal I shoot will know the difference.

I actually enjoy shooting big bore rifles, and I would have no hesitation in using bigger calibers to hunt with if I saw they produced better results.

25 December 2016, 22:01

Biebs

The familiar quote is that a poorly-placed big caliber bullet is less effective than a smaller caliber bullet placed well. Fine, but what about a large-caliber bullet placed well? Why does everyone seem to assume that large caliber shots will always be placed poorly? Is anyone saying that a well-placed small caliber bullet is better than a well-placed large caliber bullet? Give it a rest, and shoot as much gun as you can.

25 December 2016, 22:03

Heym 450/400

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Just to round out this holiday pot stirring thread, perhaps we should discuss the ethics of doing a canned lion hunt with Mark Sullivan as the PH in search of an SCI Gold lion with a .223 loaded with Sierra MatchKing bullets booked through an outfitter with a thirty-five page contract?

At 1000 yards.

25 December 2016, 22:22

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Just to round out this holiday pot stirring thread, perhaps we should discuss the ethics of doing a canned lion hunt with Mark Sullivan as the PH in search of an SCI Gold lion with a .223 loaded with Sierra MatchKing bullets booked through an outfitter with a thirty-five page contract?

At 1000 yards.

Damn, I knew I left something out.

25 December 2016, 22:50

shotgun46

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

Just as long as there is someone backing you up with something more ... right?

This is another discussion. For all of you minimalist out there, take it to the limit. Just take your next buff with a 22lr. Better yet, let's see you go after tuskless in the early season jesse blocks with a .222.

25 December 2016, 23:11

chuck375

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
For those who believe bigger is better, I copied the following from Bell Of Africa.

As regards rifles, I will simply state that I have tried the following: .416, .450/. 400, .860, .350, .318, .275 and .256. At the time I possessed the double .400 I also had a .275. Sometimes I used one and sometimes the other, and it began to dawn on me that when an elephant was hit in the right place with the .275 it died just as quickly as when hit with the .400, and, vice versa, when the bullet from either rifle was wrongly placed death did not ensue. In pursuance of this train of thought I wired both triggers of the double .450/. 400 together, so that when I pulled the rear one both barrels went off simultaneously. By doing this I obtained the equivalent of 800 grs. of lead propelled by 120 grs. of cordite. The net result was still the same. If wrongly placed, the 800 grs. from the .400 had no more effect than the 200 grs. from the 275. For years after that I continued to use the .275 and the .256 in all kinds of country and for all kinds of game. Each hunter should use the weapon he has most confidence in.

Words from Bell, the master thanks Saeed ...

I used my 270 win to hunt everything in North America, including marmots, crows, javelina, deer, black bear, elk and finished two grizzlies up close for clients guiding when it was still legal to hunt them in Montana. It was the only gun I owned so I learned how to shoot it. But elephant, lions and cape buffalo with a 7x57 oh my!

25 December 2016, 23:29

Antlers

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

Just as long as there is someone backing you up with something more ... right?

This is another discussion. For all of you minimalist out there, take it to the limit. Just take your next buff with a 22lr. Better yet, let's see you go after tuskless in the early season jesse blocks with a .222.

That's what I said! A .222 and Matchking bullets - it's a death-ray...even at 1000yds

26 December 2016, 01:36

HrH

Bell used a ladder to get at the same height as the elephants head.There were numerous of them and they were way more "relaxed" than today.He dont have to shoot,and he picked up his targets carefully.In the Mauser he used a 175 grain Solid Bullet with a high sectional density.Works for him.He also tried the .22 Savage on Buffalos with success.Shoot them broadside between the ribs.

26 December 2016, 07:38

376 steyr

I believe Bell was an expert at brain and spine shots. Doesn't take much of a bullet to do the job as long as it reaches those targets. I,ve heard that Bell used only solids in his hunting so brain and spine shots would have been the order of the day.

26 December 2016, 19:04

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by Antlers:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
quote:
Originally posted by Indy:
Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

Just as long as there is someone backing you up with something more ... right?

This is another discussion. For all of you minimalist out there, take it to the limit. Just take your next buff with a 22lr. Better yet, let's see you go after tuskless in the early season jesse blocks with a .222.

That's what I said! A .222 and Matchking bullets - it's a death-ray... even at 1000yds

Yes, but what about a tuskless ele at 4 yards in heavy cover! THAT'S what I'm talking bout!