quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Anyone can learn to shoot a .375 accurately. It kicks a lot less than a .458. And it kills any animal very well. I can't see any reason to hunt DG with anything less than a .375, or with anything more.

Just as long as there is someone backing you up with something more ... right?

This is another discussion. For all of you minimalist out there, take it to the limit. Just take your next buff with a 22lr. Better yet, let's see you go after tuskless in the early season jesse blocks with a .222.

That's what I said! A .222 and Matchking bullets - it's a death-ray... even at 1000yds

Yes, but what about a tuskless ele at 4 yards in heavy cover! THAT'S what I'm talking bout!

Todd, it's all about bullet placement ...that 55gr Ballistic Tip in the right place...

Some years ago, we went on a plains game safari to South Africa.

I built a brand new rifle for this hunt.

I chambered a Dan Lilja 27 inch barrel for our 30/404, and installed it in a Sako action.

I loaded a number of different 180 grain bullets, including Sierra Match Kings to try out.

I shot most of the animals with the Match Kings. The velocity was 3480 fps.

We never recovered a single bullet, as they all disintegrated.

I shot animals from probably 10 yards - a nyala - to almost 500 yards - blue wildebeest.

Every single one died with one shot.

It was quite an eye opener for us, as I would never have thought these bullets would perform with 100% success.

Discussing rifle calibers and bullets is always fun and interesting read. IMO The short answer is bullet placement (accuracy) and shoot what you shoot well. A quick humane kill is always the goal. Having said that I am a rifle nut owning everything from 17 HMR to 458 Lott. As I have grown older (wiser is a matter of conjecture and opinion ) my 30-06 and 416 Rem are my go to Africa Rifles. At home its the 30-06 or 300 Win Mag.

Exactly Tim,

Sadly, many people still believe a near miss by a bigger caliber will produce results

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Just to round out this holiday pot stirring thread, perhaps we should discuss the ethics of doing a canned lion hunt with Mark Sullivan as the PH in search of an SCI Gold lion with a .223 loaded with Sierra MatchKing bullets booked through an outfitter with a thirty-five page contract?

You got some pics of this lion?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Sadly, many people still believe a near miss by a bigger caliber will produce results

Sadly, many people still do not appreciate that a near miss by a bigger caliber is generally preferable to a near miss by a smaller caliber.

quote:

Sadly, many people still do not appreciate that a near miss by a bigger caliber is generally preferable to a near miss by a smaller caliber. clap

Especially with Elephant.

I shot my first lion, a young male with a Krico 243 rifle !
I was 13 years old and after the fact my late father tanned my hide for this stunt ! Not because I shot the lion but because I did it with a French visiting guest present and should the whole thing have turned sour someone could get seriously hurt. The skin lies on the floor in my gunroom !

Guess risky behaviour ran in the family because he shot a Elephant using my 44 Revolver which subsequently then got confiscated and was used as evidence in a court case that followed. I got my 44 back 3 years after the event.

Alas,
A very old argument that will never be settled.

I still like to read these threads though. You never know who might get there panties in a wad.

quote:

Originally posted by Thunder Head:

A very old argument that will never be settled.

. . . precisely why the thread was started.

Don't blame me!

It was Bell who said it

7 X 57 no less and 800 eles to his credit with it...

But I always love the ...but missing with a big bore is better than missing with a small bore comments. A miss is a miss and you better have a backup plan that extends well beyond the caliber you are missing with like having someone along with you who doesn't miss.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Sadly, many people still believe a near miss by a bigger caliber will produce results

Sadly, many people still do not appreciate that a near miss by a bigger caliber is generally preferable to a near miss by a smaller caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
7 X 57 no less and 800 eles to his credit with it...

But I always love the ...but missing with a big bore is better than missing with a small bore comments. A miss is a miss and you better have a backup plan that extends well beyond the caliber you are missing with like having someone along with you who doesn't miss.

Probably true with the sole exception of elephant. I've personally witnessed close brain misses with a big bore causing elephant to drop to the shot, then requiring a follow up. I've had it happen a couple of times myself. For a very good demonstration on video, find that cow charge Jines and Buzz stopped at just a few yards, only to have her get up and require being finished by Buzz as she ran off.



Point being, an ele charge can often be stopped with a close miss to the brain with a big bore. For those who want to dispute it, go ahead. Yes, a hit is best, but even the experts miss on occasion. Personally, I prefer to stack the deck in my favor, which for me means, shooting a 500NE for ele in close cover and spending the time at the range necessary to handle it properly. If you're all about doing the minimum with the minimum, more power to ya!

Todd, just saying that I would rather have someone who never misses with a 7 X 57 than someone who gets close with a .500 Nitro.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Todd, just saying that I would rather have someone who never misses with a 7 X 57 than someone who gets close with a .500 Nitro.

Dude - nobody never misses...not even Bell.

And yet funny how Bell never felt undergunned...

Just finished reading Bell. He talks a lot about just knocking 'em down with the 7 X 57 and having to put in a "finisher". If they weren't twitching, he shot 'em again. I say more power to him - I wouldn't try an elephant with a 7mm.
k

quote:

Originally posted by kevin henderson:
Just finished reading Bell. He talks a lot about just knocking 'em down with the 7 X 57 and having to put in a "finisher". If they weren't twitching, he shot 'em again. I say more power to him - I wouldn't try an elephant with a 7mm.
k

Does he write about how many ran off wounded ?

As a arm chair guy, I was converted by Mjines and the cult of 500 nitro on the forum. That and Buzz Charlton's first dvd convinced me swing the biggest hammer you can swing with two hammer heads welded together.

It even made my wife a believer. I dare anyone to watch that cow who pass Buzz Charlton at mere foot steps not admit a double would be better tool. Mr. Charlton even says so in the video, and he was using a bolt action with experience that is unassailable.

No animal ever argued about being shot with too much gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Todd, just saying that I would rather have someone who never misses with a 7 X 57 than someone who gets close with a .500 Nitro.

I'm with Todd on this one. Elephants are different. If you want to hunt elephant in the jess with a 7x57, go for it. I'd rather a 500 Nitro. Also as Todd said, you must put in the time to develop your skills in handling a big bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
For those who believe bigger is better, I copied the following from Bell Of Africa.



As regards rifles, I will simply state that I have tried the following: .416, .450/. 400, .860, .350, .318, .275 and .256. At the time I possessed the double .400 I also had a .275. Sometimes I used one and sometimes the other, and it began to dawn on me that when an elephant was hit in the right place with the .275 it died just as quickly as when hit with the .400, and, vice versa, when the bullet from either rifle was wrongly placed death did not ensue. In pursuance of this train of thought I wired both triggers of the double .450/. 400 together, so that when I pulled the rear one both barrels went off simultaneously. By doing this I obtained the equivalent of 800 grs. of lead propelled by 120 grs. of cordite. The net result was still the same. If wrongly placed, the 800 grs. from the .400 had no more effect than the 200 grs. from the 275. For years after that I continued to use the .275 and the .256 in all kinds of country and for all kinds of game. Each hunter should use the weapon he has most confidence in.

Saeed is spot on with the statement in bold in his post! The fly in the ointment is when the wrong place is hit in a close encounter, and the follow-up is going too fast at close range and the bullet blows apart and fails to get to the kill zone. In that case all the power you can muster is JUST ENOUGH no matter how well placed the second shot is.

I could kill just about anything in North America, and most of the game in Africa with well placed shots from a 243 win with a tough bullet, but I don't think I would go to Africa with anything less than a 375 H&H if any of the bite backs were on license!

Placing a bullet in the right place is easy here on AR, but not so easy in the long grass with Mr. Mbogo!

............................................................Opinions vary, the above is mine! Carry on folks!
...................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Just to round out this holiday pot stirring thread, perhaps we should discuss the ethics of doing a canned lion hunt with Mark Sullivan as the PH in search of an SCI Gold lion with a .223 loaded with Sierra MatchKing bullets booked through an outfitter with a thirty-five page contract?

At 1000 yards.

You would be a lot safer at 1000 yds!
................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by kevin henderson:
Just finished reading Bell. He talks a lot about just knocking 'em down with the 7 X 57 and having to put in a "finisher". If they weren't twitching, he shot 'em again. I say more power to him - I wouldn't try an elephant with a 7mm.
k

Go ahead and you may get to say hi to Bell personally after it doesn't work!

..................................................................

I would not feel safe if my PH carried a .243 as his backup gun while hunting African DG. Call me crazy.

BH63

Gentlemen:

Half the fun of going to Africa is shooting a big gun.

Excluding elephants, I shoot just about everything with my 416. The truth of the matter is that I can shoot that old 416 better than I can any of my 375s. Plus it is just fun. I have killed everything from grysbok to elephant with it.

Could I shoot PG with a smaller rifle? Sure. Why would I want to? I have to carry another rifle and more ammo. Could I shoot buff with a smaller rifle? Sure but why would I want to when I shoot the 416 better?

Is bigger better? Sometimes but not always. Is bigger more fun? Sometimes but not always. I love hunting with my 500 NE. It does not phase me to shoot it. If I went up to say 577, it would not be fun to carry to all day.

I say take what you want, take what you like, take what you can shoot well. The hell with what others think. It is your safari.

quote:

Half the fun of going to Africa is shooting a big gun.

A big 10-4 on that :-)

This is akin to the guy I ran into in a gunsmith shop that had just mounted a 4x Nikon on his 17HMR Crickett rifle. He was bragging that it was what he was going to deer hunt with in the upcoming season. Like I was somehow supposed to be impressed that he was planning on using a .17. Didn't impress me, just made me think he was an idiot. I wonder how many head shot animals end up with a jaw shot and there is not enough blood to track or the shooter thinks he missed.
Besides, if I am on a safari, I might have two weeks tops, then I'm back home at work. I dont want to waste a day or two if I have to follow something up. Bell had from now on. If you live there its different. You can hunt next week or next month so you can get by with less and loose an animal or two. In a study done several years ago I read that the success rate on an elk with a bow is 28% of the SHOTS. So archers lose 78% of the elk they shoot at?????? Or put it off as a miss? Believe it was in CO. I'll spend my money on hitting an animal hard the first time and with something above the margin of "adequate". Just my $0.02

I don't believe the OP was suggesting to tackle ele with a .223, but that for many if not most hunting encounters a .500 Nitro is not necessary either. Fun yes, necessary no.

At the end of the day a miss is a miss and it's best not to miss regardless of caliber, or rifle manufacture, or bullet construction, or distance shot, or velocity, or scope used.

James Sutherland on Rifles:


Note he:

During these ten years, I have shot 447 bull elephants (I do not count females), thereby creating a world’s record. I do not make this statement in any spirit of boasting: I merely wish to convey to the reader that the stories which follow are not fiction, but facts gleaned from a long and unique experience in one of the most exciting and dangerous sports that the world offers, and jotted down actually as they happened within a day or two of their occurrence. Sutherland, James (2013-04-16). The Adventures Of An Elephant Hunter With Illustrations (Kindle Locations 37-40). Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.


Here are his comments on rifles:

but as the subject is naturally one open to endless discussion, I shall express a personal opinion rather than dogmatize. During my hunting career, I have used all kinds of rifles from the 4 bore, black powder, elephant rifle downwards, but as the black powder rifle is a thing of the past, I shall confine my attention to modern high-velocity, smokeless powder rifles, which are infinitely superior to their predecessors on account of their greater range, velocity, power and lightness. In the first place, the man behind the rifle is so obviously of primary importance that the fact may be dismissed without further comment, while the great consideration in all hunting is to kill and not merely to wound the game fired at. With regard to the weapon, practically any modern rifle will kill game if the bullet penetrates a vital part such as the brain, heart or vertebræ, but under ordinary conditions, such as dense cover with sharp contrasts of light and shade, these shots are difficult, and what is requisite is a rifle with a flat trajectory, which will, should a vital spot be missed, deliver a smashing, disabling blow. With a ˙ 303, I have killed all kinds of game from elephants downwards, but it must be remembered that the hunter who uses a weapon of such calibre against large and dangerous game at close quarters in bush country, runs considerable risk of losing his life, for the bullet has neither the requisite weight nor velocity always to prove thoroughly effectual. And with regard to their use against smaller game, though such light bullets have great penetration, they do not administer a sufficiently paralysing blow to prevent a wounded animal from bolting and thereby obliging the hunter to pursue his quarry for miles, with a chance of losing it altogether and leaving it to die a lingering death in the bush. My experience has, therefore, taught me to consider the ˙ 303 a thoroughly unsuitable and unsportsmanlike weapon, the use of which should most emphatically be discontinued. For all kinds of game, save rhinoceroses and elephants, my ideal rifle is one that fires a bullet, lead-nosed or copper-capped, weighing between 350 and 400 grains, and leaving the muzzle with a velocity of 2,300 ft. or more per second; for the simple reason that such a bullet expands, tears a large hole and spends all its energy in the animal without slipping through.



The elephant and rhinoceros, being in a class by themselves, require a rifle firing a much heavier bullet. After experimenting with and using all kinds of rifles, I find the most effective to be the double ˙ 577 with a 750 grains bullet and a charge in axite powder equivalent to a hundred grains of cordite. The heavier double-barrelled ˙ 600 bore rifle, with a bullet weighing 900 grains, lacks the penetration of the ˙ 577, while its weight (16 lbs. against 13 lbs. of the latter) renders it a much more awkward weapon to handle. I think the superiority of the ˙ 577 over the ˙ 450 and ˙ 500 rifles, will be evident when I state that I have lost elephants with these last two rifles, while I have bagged others with identically the same shots from a ˙ 577.


In open country, against elephants and rhinoceroses, where the quarry is difficult to approach and long shots are often required, I find that I can do all that is requisite with a small bore rifle, such as the ˙ 318, using, of course, solid nickel-covered bullets, for, owing to the easy manipulation afforded by such a weapon, a more deliberate aim can be taken than with a heavy rifle. I have dwelt at some length on this subject of rifles, for I feel that the matter is one of importance, from the point of view not only of the hunter, but of the game. The point of view on which I insist is one of common humanity, and the young hunter should think deeply over the subject of weapons before going out against game with any small bore magazine rifle. For, as I have already said, the penetration of these rifles is great and the bullet so small, that an animal hit in any but a vital spot may escape to die in agony in the bush, while the sportsman, finding that he has not bagged his quarry, often indiscriminately empties his magazine into other animals of the herd, trusting to drop one or more out of the number. There is no censure strong enough for this reckless cruelty, and I feel that much of it would assuredly be avoided, if the hunter would only give the foregoing notes his careful consideration.

Sutherland, James (2013-04-16). The Adventures Of An Elephant Hunter With Illustrations (Kindle Locations 1565-1573). Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.



Sutherland, James (2013-04-16). The Adventures Of An Elephant Hunter With Illustrations (Kindle Locations 1564-1565). Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.

Sutherland, James (2013-04-16). The Adventures Of An Elephant Hunter With Illustrations (Kindle Locations 1548-1553). Read Books Ltd.. Kindle Edition.


I also just finished Arther Neumann s book on elephant hunting and he missed his .577 and gave up on the 10 bore and found the .303 not adequate.

One difference may be that these two hunters, and the Zambezi hunter like Nyschens or Everett were in denser bush (jess) than it appears Bell was.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Half the fun of going to Africa is shooting a big gun.

A big 10-4 on that :-)

Absolutely, and some of us who haven't been yet are using our big guns on the poor deer and elk in our home stopping grounds lol

I should add I m somewhat expressing by bias for my .577 or Gibbs.505 although for elk I really like my .375/.505. It seems human nature to justify our possessions and of course our opinions, if not only to ourselves!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Half the fun of going to Africa is shooting a big gun.

A big 10-4 on that :-)

Exactly!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Half the fun of going to Africa is shooting a big gun.

A big 10-4 on that :-)

Preferably one with 2 barrels ... side by side of course!