All,

I've been shooting quite a bit in prep for my safari, have planned to use (and have ordered) barnes Vor-Tx 180 gr in 30-06. I've been shooting a lot of federal blue box, some remington, and had a box of the Vor-Tx to sight in the rifle.

Had three rounds out of twenty fail to fire - primer is clearly struck, but no bang. All the other rounds I've fired (federal and remington) have functioned fine.

Anyone heard of this kind of issue? Should I worry about it? I'm down to final strokes and really want to use TSX bullets.

Thanks,

John

I suggest you pull the bullet off one of those that misfired, might give you a clue to why it had happened.

I would NOT take those hunting until the problem is solved.

call Barnes right away.

My 416 Rigby was having a similar issue with Hornady factory loads. The primer was struck, no bang. About one time in 5. It turned out the headspace on my rifle was just a wee bit generous. The action would almost, but not quite close on the no-go gauge. The firing pin would strike, but nudge the cartridge forward just enough to make ignition unreliable. It never happened with handloads. Since a dangerous game rifle had better go bang each and every time I sent the gun back and JJ at Champlin's turned the barrel in one turn and recut the chamber, and bedded the action. Problem solved.
With your departure so soon, I'd say that function trumps bullet flavor, and use what you know will work.

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
My 416 Rigby was having a similar issue with Hornady factory loads. The primer was struck, no bang. About one time in 5. It turned out the headspace on my rifle was just a wee bit generous. The action would almost, but not quite close on the no-go gauge. The firing pin would strike, but nudge the cartridge forward just enough to make ignition unreliable. It never happened with handloads. Since a dangerous game rifle had better go bang each and every time I sent the gun back and JJ at Champlin's turned the barrel in one turn and recut the chamber, and bedded the action. Problem solved.
With your departure so soon, I'd say that function trumps bullet flavor, and use what you know will work.

I am amazed at the sloppy chambering sometimes we see on some rifles.

In fact, we do not use GO, NO-GO gages any more in any of our chambering at all.

All our reamers are made to minimum specs, and we use a brand new case to close the bolt on.

Once that happens, the rifle is ready for use.

We were told that we will have problems with some factory ammo.

So far this has never happened. And generally our rifles shoot better than factory counterparts.

I would agree with Marty.

Every manufacturer makes loads slightly different in size.

Every chamber is also not quite the same, even if you compare the 10th chamber cut with the exact same reamer, with the 100th.

The manufacturing process for modern ammunition makes a 3 in 20 error practically if not certainly, impossible without human intervention. (Another way of putting it is that if the process was fouled up at the factory, you should get 20 failures not 3 and the failures would continue 20 for 20, box after box until the next scheduled QA inspection.)

Since human sabotage is so unlikely, I would pursue the chamber size v. Cartridge size investigation first, since it is more likely.

So my rifle would have problem with barnes but not with other manufacturers? I've had the rifle for a couple of years and never had this issue with any other ammo.

It is possible. It could be sized a hair smaller, or perhaps a harder primer.

What make of rifle is it?

Cheers, Chris

10 generation.......
My brother has had nothing but trouble with Barnes Vortx. He contacted Barnes and returned some the ammo. In the follow up they blew him off.
I saw him try some of the remaining ammo that he still had. It just wouldent go bang. His was 300 win mag. I gave him a call a bit ago and asked that he post his experiance with the ammo and Barnes. Stay tuned...........

Have not shot a whole lot of Vor-Tex ammo, but what I have shot went bang everytime.
A friend of mine found that the bullets were not seated in a box of 7mag ammo he had from them, they made it good for him.

I had the same problem with the Vortex ammo from Barnes in a 270. When I called to discuss the problem it was clear they felt their ammo was perfect and it was a firearm problem only.

To the original Poster - Per my brother's request from above in the thread: I have a T/C Encore with
both a .50 cal muzzle loader barrel and a .300 win mag barrel. I've owned the rifle for at least the past decade and never had a mis-fire from either barrel, or any manufacturer's load. Any primer I've used with the ML has gone "bang"; and of the big name factory loads for the .300 - "bang". The rifle showed a definite liking for the Federal Premium with the Barnes 165 gr. bullets over it's lifetime. My brother was guiding me last Nov. for a mule deer in MT. In preperation, I tried to find a couple more boxes of the Federal/Barnes loads. No dice. Not anywhere. The Federal/Barnes working relationship having apparently died with the Barnes acquisition/sale. But seeing Barnes product line had moved into full cartridges, I bought a couple boxes, thinking "what the hell - same bullet". My first trip to the range, 5 of the 15 bullets in the box failed to fire. I pulled out a couple of my precious few remaining Federal loads - "bang". So I wrote Barnes a thoughtful (no, really, nice and thoughtful) letter and sent the boxes (both) back to them.
The letter explained that I really didn't want to make a fuss, just wanted my money back, as I had (a) lost some confidence in the loads; and (b) had purchased some competitors (Federals with their new copper)bullets for the upcoming trip.

The "tech" at the Barnes factory told me that they were using a primer cup with much thicker walls than the competition, and they had experienced some problems with Encores in general. He promised to investigate the failed loads and let me know his findings.

Short story made long - the "tech" called me to tell me that the problem was all in my rifle and I needed to get the rifle serviced right away.
He also sent me two more boxes of Barnes loads, rather than a refund.

In the interim, I took the rifle to MT, got a great buck (thanks older brother!) with the Federals. Hunted the home state muzzle loader season (only killed a coyote with the ML), shot
two boxes of other .300 loads - all without a hitch. THEN I sent the rifle back to TC, who
dutifully examined it, replaced the original hammer with their adjustable off-set hammer and
sent it back to me.

Guess what? The thing still can't make those damn Barnes loads fire. Oh - one or two in the box will go off, but who needs B.S. like that?
Maybe they've got lawyers who figure a primer cup with the wall thickness of the Bismark's
hull will save some lawsuits somewhere. But seeing as I've never had any other primer, out of multiple manufacturers, fail to ignite the
charge; combined with the utter disdain the tech
subjected me to...well I'll never buy another Barnes load. Love their bullets/hate their primers - and "F" their factory service.

John,

Federal loads the 30-06 with the TSX in 180 and 165 grain bullets. I've shot the 180's in my '06 quite a bit and had great results.

Mark

Nothing is ever perfect

quote:

Originally posted by deno:
The "tech" at the Barnes factory told me that they were using a primer cup with much thicker walls than the competition
Maybe they've got lawyers who figure a primer cup with the wall thickness of the Bismark's
hull will save some lawsuits somewhere.

Not specifically related to the Barnes, but had the same problem happen with cheap ass Herter's in 308. Just wanted plinking rounds but none of the primers for their 180 gr would go off despite clear indents in the primers. The 150 gr, the majority fired but not all in the same gun. Was told that the primers probably had a different wall thickness. Never buy them again.

I believe that the Remington group of businesses bought Barnes. That's most likely the answer as to why Federal is not loading them anymore.

Tye,

That's a shame. They gave sub MOA in my rifle and 2740 FPS.

Considering that development I'd go to Federal 180 Nosler Partition load or the SAF in the Remington load.

Mark

This thread is a great argument for taking up hand-loading. You will get custom-made ammunition for YOUR RIFLE. You will control the manufacturing, tolerances and component selection. And you can fine-tune the loads and components for your application and not be held hostage to the availability and changing component choices of the very small number of factory ammo makers.

i have a few boxes of vortex in .300 mag but have not yet shot them. i had a similar event earier this year with remington corelokt in 7mm-08. i had shot 5 rounds out of the box with no problems. while trying to shoot a whitetail, i had two clicks without firing. both rounds had indentations in the primer. unfortunately they were the top two rounds in the magazine and so i did not get the deer. i then shot the rest of the box and again no failures. two rounds out of twenty just did not fire. i have put at least 300 rounds of corelokt thru that rifle and never had a problem.

Might be a Remington group business decision on the primers. Who knows, but that speculation is as good as any right now, if the Remington Corelokts have had problems too.

No ammunition manufacturer will ever admit to a product failure. Think about it.

I ALWAYS test fire ALL my ammo prior to leaving for any hunting trip.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

Fortunately for me, I have not had that issue with the Vor-TX ammo. I have a few boxes of it and they seem to go boom whenever I pull the trigger. That being said, I seldom shoot factory ammo and have reloaded ammo for all my toys since 40 years ago. I try some every now and then and have found the Federal Premium line of ammo some of the most accurate, and close to competing with hand loaded, carefully worked up loads.

I all but guarantee you the problem is with your rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
I ALWAYS test fire ALL my ammo prior to leaving for any hunting trip.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser
DRSS

Then you are out of ammo and can't hunt

lol, that's what I was thinking!

title of this site - accurate RELOADING

10generation, where are you in CA? I am in the IE. I might be able to help.

Many years ago I got a single box (100) of Vihtavuori primers and used them for my 358 Win reloading & 280 Ack Imp fire forming. I had a very high rate of misfires on the range - if memory serves me right, something like 90 of them did not go bang the first time. BUT all of them went bang when I fired the round a second time. Since most of it was used for fire forming, it was not an issue.

I have had no problem with the Fed or CCI primers that I normally use.

Did you try to fire the ammo a second time?

Guys, thanks very much for the insights. After reading this thread and giving it some thought, I went ahead and paid more per box for the remington A-frame cartridge in 180 grain.

I've got all the reloading gear - just need to get a bench set up - look forward to not having this issue in the future.

Really appreciate all the responses.

I'm not convinced reloading completely solves primer problems. My brother has had a few duds, and i know Michael 458 had a bad batch of Fed 215's not too long ago. While handloaded ammo can do a lot of things, we still have no control over the manufacture of primers, which is what makes the whole thing work in the first place.

I haven't fired a factory shell since early '73.
Only primers I've had that wouldn't fire were in with a bunch I got from a buddy that died that had the OLD wood tray boxes. Gosh, those were replaced in the '50's.

I bought 500 .308", 180gr C/L's and loaded them up in both '06 and .300win. That same batch of shells has killed more than 35 elk, six bear and dozen or more muley's without a single problem in at least 8 different rifles. Some of the elk were shot within 30-50 Feet and penetrated like they should. I just got a fluke bad bullet that's all.

I shot a cow elk at 200yds & made a good hit in the ribs that knocked her down on a steep hillside, she slid over 100yds before stopping .Then she got UP!! By then I'd started up the hill. Made a bad offhand shot & hit in he top of the spine over the hips. She went down then for good. I had to use the pistol to finish her up.
Upon inspection/butchering etc. I found the rib shot bullet had blown up on the surface, didn't even hit the near lung. It did blow a 4"x9" hole in the ribs, taking one rib hit directly and meat from between on both sides.

I wrote Rem several times. Finally I got a reply after months when I threatened to never buy another Rem product again. I was told: "we've heard of that before, buy our Factory Ultra C/L". Fk that! I went to Sierra's
Game Kings since.

Good luke getting that loading bench finished soon.
George

handloading your fired cases will take care of any headspace problems as well. havent fired a factory loaded shell in a decade

The Remington Safari 180gr A-Frames were the best choice. Not a big fan of the TSX because of bullet failures. I've used the Remington Safari in 3 rifles and have been very pleased with the accuracy and performance.

quote:

Originally posted by BigBoreMan:
Not a big fan of the TSX because of bullet failures.

Please elaborate since everything I've shot with one died and the few bullets recovered weighed about 1-2 grains less than when I loaded them.

Sure thing Frostbit.

When using the TSX in a 340 Wby had numerous times when all 4 "petals" would separate from the bullet and would become a .338 solid at that point. Shot an impala and the bullet failed in the aforementioned manner -- one of the petals hit a yearling impala in the head and killed him as well as the intended target.

The TSX's took 10 animals on that trip but failed to stay together numerous times. I have almost exclusively used A-Frames since and find it to be the most impressive bullet in terms of overall performance -- 95%+ weight retention, 2x+ expansion and never had a failure.

I had reached out to Barnes and they responded. Have asked for the lot number which I've sent them. Will be interesting to see how they respond.

I've been loading rifle and pistol ammunition for about 40 years and I have (until recently) had only two primers fail in thousands of rounds. One failure was on a Wyoming deer hunt when a CCI primer failed to fire in a .270 Winchester. The other failure happened in 2011 while working up loads for a .416 and that time the primer was Winchester WLRM.

Not too long ago I purchased some factory 185 grain Remington JHP ammunition in .45 ACP for use in a match. About half of the box (25 rounds) failed to fire and were removed with a tap/rack so I could continue to fire until the targets turned. Some of the rounds fired later with a second hit. Keep in mind that I had fired about 15,000 rounds of reloads with that pistol without a hitch before buying factory Remington ammo.

I was advised by my ammunition dealer that Remington was recalling a certain lot of .45 ACP ammunition because either due to a mistake or a disgruntled employee, large rifle primers with thicker cups had been placed into the primer dispenser on the loading machine. U don't know if that was the problem and I did not check with Remington.

If Remington primers are now being used in Vor Tex ammunition, and if the primers are too thick in the cup to fire in your rifle, might you run into the same problem with Remington/Swift AF ammunition you have now gone to?

10gen - I can tell you exactly how they will respond. Their
tech will call you, tell you that they are sending you a specially encoded (for live ammo)UPS or FedEx label for you to return the box(es) to them.
In that call, you will be told how they are using this primer who's cup wall is thicker than that of the industry standard, but more than likely the problem is with your rifle (sloppy chamber; weak pin strike; a combination thereof). About 3 weeks after you send the boxes off, the tech will call back and tell you that based on his microscopic analysis of the pin strikes
on the primers you returned, that your rifle has a problem
and you should get it fixed right away. He will graciously send
you replacement bullets. They too will fail to fire.
As mentioned to by another poster in this thread, Barnes sold
out to whatever conglomerate owns Remington. Another example of
a fine small company, gobbled up by the huge corporate machine,
and promptly bastardized beyond recognition at the hand of Bean Counter decision makers - not the folks who had their finger on the pulse of those served by the product.
Yeah - I'm a little bitter. At my age, and experience I don't like to be talked down to (as I was by the tech) - and Yeah, other posters to this thread are correct. It's better to light a candle (or in this case "pop a cap") than to curse the darkness. Reloading my own, rather than bitching, is the proactive intelligent recourse.